Jump to content
The Merling King

Targaryen marriage alliances and power-blocs in post dragon Westeros

Recommended Posts

Any thoughts on the importance of Targeryen power bloc’s in post dragon Westeros, for example the Vale- Stormlands- Dorne alliance formed by Daeron ii and the attempted power block of Aegon V through marriages. Do you think the Stormlands and the Vale are key to any Targeryen coalition? Also do you think the Targaryens were hesitant to bing in over-powefull houses like the Lannister and Tyrells after what happened with the Hightower’s and the Valeryons during the dance?

Edited by The Merling King

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
55 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

Any thoughts on the importance of Targeryen power bloc’s in post dragon Westeros, for example the Vale- Stormlands- Dorne alliance formed by Daeron ii and the attempted power block of Aegon V through marriages. Do you think the Stormlands and the Vale are key to any Targeryen coalition? Also do you think the Targaryens were hesitant to bing in over-powefull houses like the Lannister and Tyrells after what happened with the Hightower’s and the Valeryons during the dance?

I actually think many, possibly all, of the wives of Daeron II's four sons were Targaryen cousins through the female line. This is confirmed for Queen Aelinor Penrose, the wife of King Aerys I, who was a cousin of her husband, suggesting that Aelinor was descended either from a daughter or Alyn Velaryon and Baela Targaryen (possibly even the second Laena Velaryon born at the end of FaB) or of one of those six daughters Rhaena Targaryen had with Garmund Hightower.

There are many Targaryens through the female line around in the 2nd century.

I think Queen Aelinor's father was Ronnel Penrose, the second husband of Elaena Targaryen, who may have fathered Aelinor on a first wife (sort of like Aemma Arryn had four older half-siblings by her father's first wife) and that he grew up with young Prince Aegon as a page and squire as the grandson of Baela or Rhaena.

There is a curious quote in TWoIaF hinting at Daeron II's allies in the Stormlands and Dornish marches:

Quote

Perhaps it was for this reason that Aegon turned his attention to Dorne, using the hatred for the Dornishmen that still burned in the marches, the stormlands, and the Reach to suborn some of Daeron's allies and use them against his most powerful supporters.

Aegon IV's plan early in his reign (the failed attempt to conquer Dorne took place in 174 AC, two years after he had taken the throne) apparently involved inciting the Stormlords and Marcher Lords against the Dornishmen - who were Daeron's most powerful supporters. But Daeron apparently also had allies among those Stormlords and Marcher lords - at a point where his sons definitely were not yet married to anyone. [Baelor Breakspear was born the same year as Daemon Blackfyre (in 170 AC), meaning he was about four years old when his grandfather tried to conquer Dorne.] Thus we can deduce that the future Daeron II must have had allies among the Stormlords and Marcher lords (men who, due to their traditional hatred of the Dornishmen should have been in the Unworthy's camp - and later in the Blackfyre camp). Not all of them - but definitely some of them. And the best guess is that Daeron II's best friends were the very men whose daughters ended up marrying his two elder sons.

Thus we can, I think, assume that both the father of Aelinor Penrose (tentatively Ronnel Penrose) and the father of Jena Dondarrion (future wife of Baelor Breakspear) grew up with Prince Daeron and became close friends of the future king - sort of like Aerys II befriended his own cousin Steffon Baratheon and Tywin Lannister during his childhood and youth at the court of Aegon V.

This idea makes even more sense if we consider that two Penroses (Aelinor and Ronnel) were honored with Targaryen marriages despite their low standing (House Penrose is very undistinguished in Westerosi history despite Cortnay Penrose's loyalty to the late Renly and Edric Storm). And the Dondarrions may be famed Marcher lords but they have very humble roots. It strikes me as very unlikely that the Prince of Dragonstone and Heir Apparent to the Iron Throne - which Baelor Breakspear was from 184 AC onwards - would have been married to a Dondarrion if said Dondarrion wasn't also a Targaryen through the female line. We do know that Betha Blackwood (a relation of the King's Hand, Bryden Rivers, himself the son of a Targaryen king) was considered an unsuitable bride for Prince Maekar's youngest son and that this match would have faced serious opposition if Egg had been at the top rather than the end of the line of succession in 220 AC. The idea that Daeron II could have married his heir to a Dondarrion and his second son to a Penrose if that had been the only thing they were is very hard to swallow. This would have made the case of the Blackfyre partisan so much easier. Daeron II's own non-incestuous union had visibly diluted the royal blood - Baelor Breakspear, while being a great knight and better ruler, did favor his Dornish mother and did not look like a Targaryen - and thus it makes little sense that Daeron II would have continued that trend by not marrying his sons to Targaryen cousins. And we do know that Valarr did have some Valyrian features and that two, possibly three (Aemon) sons of Maekar had very distinct Valyrian features.

We do know - due to Valarr's and Daeron's and Aerion's ages in THK - that both Baelor and Maekar (who must have been at least four years younger than Baelor, but it is very likely that he was even younger since I don't expect Myriah to have produced four sons in four years) were married and/or already had children by the time of the Blackfyre Rebellion in 196 AC, effectively confirming it that at least Baelor's and Maekar's brides were not rewards for loyal lords and knights during the Blackfyre Rebellion but rather marriages made earlier which likely helped Daeron II to crush the rebels (we do know that Maekar led the Dornishmen and Baelor the Stormlanders on the Redgrass Field).

Since we can also reasonably expect that Princess Elaena married Ronnel Penrose in the first half of King Daeron II (she had four children with him and eventually married Michael Manwoody while Daeron II was still king) we can also expect that the marriage of the future Aerys I was arranged before the Blackfyre Rebellion - considering Aerys' character (he essentially seems to have been another version of (semi-)autist Vaegon) I doubt his parents would have insisted on a marriage if hadn't been their second son or if his match had only been made when Baelor and Maekar already had their sons.

Rhaegel's wife - Alys Arryn - and Maekar's wife - Dyanna Dayne - are somewhat different. There were two Arryn-Targaryen marriages in the past, and the Arryns are the oldest bloodline of Andal royalty. Thus Alys can but doesn't have to be a some sort of a Targaryen cousin (although it is still possible). And since mad Rhaegel's twins Aelor and Aelora still seem to be children by 212 AC, it is also possible that Rhaegel was married to a daughter of Lord Donnel Arryn (who was a hero of the Redgrass Field) only after the Blackfyre Rebellion. But it is also possible that Rhaegel's mental issues were so severe that he and his lady wife had sex only very infrequently, or that they had other fertility issues.

Dyanna Dayne and Maekar Targaryen could be a love match, a marriage that grew out of the fact that Queen Myriah had a dashing young Dayne girl among her ladies and companions. But it is also possible that either during the Conquest of Dorne or during Baelor the Blessed's peace negotiations or even later still when the future Daeron II and Myriah celebrated their wedding one of those Targaryen-Velaryons or Targaryen-Hightowers married into House Dayne and a daughter from that union eventually ended up marrying young Prince Maekar in the 190s.

I think the Targaryens were always wary of considering a Lannister marriage. That would have given them too much prestige and power. Queen Rhaena realized that they wanted both the Iron Throne and dragons, and chances are that the more ambitious Lannisters never gave up that goal. About the relations between the Targaryens and the Tyrells we don't know enough, especially in the post-FaB years, but I'd say that despite their power they would not have been seen as suitable matches for the royal family for most of the kings. They were just upjumped stewards, after all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, The Merling King said:

Do you think the Stormlands and the Vale are key to any Targeryen coalition?

I think the Stormlands do are the key to every Targ coalition, with the exception of the Robellion, the Baratheons were traditionally key allies to the Targs, that's make clear in the  Dance where both parties want Borros aid. The Vale is a curious case, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I think the Targaryens were always wary of considering a Lannister marriage. That would have given them too much prestige and power. Queen Rhaena realized that they wanted both the Iron Throne and dragons, and chances are that the more ambitious Lannisters never gave up that goal.

I think the Targaryens were less concerned when they had dragons as Lannister’s were considered potential suitors for both Princess Daella and Princess Rhaenrya. 

 

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

About the relations between the Targaryens and the Tyrells we don't know enough, especially in the post-FaB years, but I'd say that despite their power they would not have been seen as suitable matches for the royal family for most of the kings. They were just upjumped stewards, after all.

I agree regarding the Tyrells and was suprised Aegon V offered his daughters to the Tyrells and Tully’s. Do you think the largess had worn out or was he desperate to pass his reforms? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
49 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

I think the Targaryens were less concerned when they had dragons as Lannister’s were considered potential suitors for both Princess Daella and Princess Rhaenrya. 

Princess Daella wasn't a dragonrider and would never become one due to her fear of dragons. Spreading out the dragonrider potential isn't that great an idea but no big deal while you control the actual access to dragons and dragon eggs. Rhaenyra had many suitors as heir apparent, but we can safely say that only Aegon the Elder, Laenor Velaryon, and possibly the Prince of Dorne were ever seriously considered matches. The idea that Viserys I would have married his darling daughter and heir to anyone less isn't very likely.

49 minutes ago, The Merling King said:

I agree regarding the Tyrells and was suprised Aegon V offered his daughters to the Tyrells and Tully’s. Do you think the largess had worn out or was he desperate to pass his reforms? 

Well, Aegon V didn't exactly want to marry his heir to a Tully or Tyrell. His second son was supposed to marry a Tully daughter, and his elder daughter the heir to Highgarden. That was a great honor and a sign of royal favor to those houses, but it is no surprise that Prince Duncan, the heir apparent, was betrothed to a Baratheon - of a cadet branch of House Targaryen with the royal blood of the old Storm Kings in their veins. That was a suitable match for a future king.

The matches were supposed to help Aegon V with his reforms by making strong bonds with crucial noble families - but since they were made early in his reign (in 237 AC, four years after he took the throne) we can be reasonably sure most of his reforms were just plans at this point. But, of course, after his children fucked things up the Tyrells, Tullys, and Redwynes wouldn't have been of much help in all that. Assuming the Luthor-Olenna match isn't an indication that they formed a power bloc to actively oppose the reforms to spite Aegon V and his children.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/13/2020 at 9:46 PM, The Merling King said:

Any thoughts on the importance of Targeryen power bloc’s in post dragon Westeros, for example the Vale- Stormlands- Dorne alliance formed by Daeron ii and the attempted power block of Aegon V through marriages. Do you think the Stormlands and the Vale are key to any Targeryen coalition? Also do you think the Targaryens were hesitant to bing in over-powefull houses like the Lannister and Tyrells after what happened with the Hightower’s and the Valeryons during the dance?

The most serious power-bloc to threaten the Targs was in the lead-up to Roberts Rebellion when Starks started marrying Tullys and Baratheons, Tullys married Arryns, and even Lannisters and Martells were scheming to get in on this action. A north-westerlands-riverlands- Vale-Dorne bloc would have been deeply troubling not just to the Targs but the Tullys as well. They are the ones, after all, who had the largest army and navy until then, and the Gardeners for thousands of years before that. This is why the Tullys supports Aerys, after all, not because they had any great loyalty to him personally, but they needed to nip all of this alliance-making in the bud.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The most serious power-bloc to threaten the Targs was in the lead-up to Roberts Rebellion when Starks started marrying Tullys and Baratheons, Tullys married Arryns, and even Lannisters and Martells were scheming to get in on this action. A north-westerlands-riverlands- Vale-Dorne bloc would have been deeply troubling not just to the Targs but the Tullys as well. They are the ones, after all, who had the largest army and navy until then, and the Gardeners for thousands of years before that. This is why the Tullys supports Aerys, after all, not because they had any great loyalty to him personally, but they needed to nip all of this alliance-making in the bud.

This wasn't a power bloc. It was a histocial accident that Robert and Ned and Jon were able to form a working coalition. In the end those marriages had less to do with the whole thing than Robert's charisma and personality (and, originally, Jon's decision to stand by Ned and Robert).

How marriages alliances go you see when Walder Frey turns against Genna's family in the war, when Alester Florent stands with Mace and Renly rather than Stannis and Selyse, when Borros Baratheon turns against his first cousin Princess Rhaenys, when Lyonel Hightower's close relative Lord Redwyne ended up sending ... zero ships to assist Lyonel and Alyn Velaryon against the Greyjoys. Or just think how Daemon Velaryon - Queen Alyssa's brother and Aegon's and Viserys' maternal uncle - heroically stood with his nephews against the usurpation of Maegor the Cruel, defending them to his very last breath ... that never happened.

The Estermonts and Hightowers don't give a fig about what their liege lords and close kin are doing. Lysa Arryn let her family and other relations die, and that despite the fact that a considerable number of Stark cousins live in the Vale. The Blackwoods and Brackens never overcame their feud despite the fact that they have married each other more than once or twice.

And so on. If you look at Westerosi history then it is actually the exception, not the rule, if two noble houses linked by marriage end up on the same side in a conflict.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

and even Lannisters and Martells were scheming to get in on this action.

Why would they??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

This wasn't a power bloc. It was a histocial accident that Robert and Ned and Jon were able to form a working coalition. In the end those marriages had less to do with the whole thing than Robert's charisma and personality (and, originally, Jon's decision to stand by Ned and Robert).

How marriages alliances go you see when Walder Frey turns against Genna's family in the war, when Alester Florent stands with Mace and Renly rather than Stannis and Selyse, when Borros Baratheon turns against his first cousin Princess Rhaenys, when Lyonel Hightower's close relative Lord Redwyne ended up sending ... zero ships to assist Lyonel and Alyn Velaryon against the Greyjoys. Or just think how Daemon Velaryon - Queen Alyssa's brother and Aegon's and Viserys' maternal uncle - heroically stood with his nephews against the usurpation of Maegor the Cruel, defending them to his very last breath ... that never happened.

The Estermonts and Hightowers don't give a fig about what their liege lords and close kin are doing. Lysa Arryn let her family and other relations die, and that despite the fact that a considerable number of Stark cousins live in the Vale. The Blackwoods and Brackens never overcame their feud despite the fact that they have married each other more than once or twice.

And so on. If you look at Westerosi history then it is actually the exception, not the rule, if two noble houses linked by marriage end up on the same side in a conflict.

It would have been the makings of exactly the kind of marriage-bound alliance that Highgarden has maintained with its bannermen for thousands of years. As long as the other kings/high lords did the same with their banners, the Reach's power is unchallenged. Uniting through marriage would threaten that balance, and this is the first time in recorded history, as far as we can tell, that some many great houses are looking to inter-marry at once.

Even if this does not hold in the long term, it is quite the problem right now, both for the Targaryens and the Tyrells. And in the end, Tywin wound up controlling nearly all of it, which is a HUGE problem for the Tyrells.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
27 minutes ago, frenin said:

Why would they??

Tywin and Hoster Tully were discussing marrying Jaime to Lysa. Prior to that, Johanna was working with the princess of Dorn to wed Jaime to Elia and Cersei to Oberyn.

It's all about building alliances to counter the might of the Iron Throne if push ever came to shove. But at the same time it also counters the might of Highgarden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Tywin and Hoster Tully were discussing marrying Jaime to Lysa. Prior to that, Johanna was working with the princess of Dorn to wed Jaime to Elia and Cersei to Oberyn.  It's all about building alliances to counter the might of the Iron Throne if push ever came to shove. But at the same time it also counters the might of Highgarden.

 

But the first happened well after the latter and neither Tywin nor Hoster or the Martell had a problem with the IT. What did the roses to Twin?? They were nowhere to be seen at court and Tywin was clerly the most powerful lord in the land, why would the Martells want to court the power of Higharden if it's not a threat to them??

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, frenin said:

But the first happened well after the latter and neither Tywin nor Hoster or the Martell had a problem with the IT. What did the roses to Twin?? They were nowhere to be seen at court and Tywin was clerly the most powerful lord in the land, why would the Martells want to court the power of Higharden if it's not a threat to them??

 

 

It's all the Game of Thrones. Nobody may have specific designs on Highgarden, but they are the most powerful house in the realm. So it's all about creating your own power center if push were ever to come to shove. After Duskendale, of course, the Mad King is getting madder by the minute, so the need for the great houses to unite is growing as well.

Dorne and the Reach are long-time enemies, so they don't need an excuse to consider Highgarden a threat. And note that just before arriving at Casterly Rock, Elia and Oberyn were in Oldtown sizing up the Hightowers for potential matches. 

We don't know what was going on between Tywin, Hoster and the other lords vis the Iron Throne. Things were not good between Aerys and Tywin, and by the time Jaime/Lysa was being discussed, so Tywin may already have been contemplating an eventual break with Aerys. It never got past the initial discussion stage, but the mere idea that the great houses are suddenly, after all these centuries, talking about intermarriage would be distressing to both Aerys and the Tyrells.

And I also suspect that Lord Luthor Tyrell was either oblivious or not overly concerned by all of this, which is why Lady Olenna had him killed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2/14/2020 at 6:43 AM, frenin said:

I think the Stormlands do are the key to every Targ coalition, with the exception of the Robellion, the Baratheons were traditionally key allies to the Targs, that's make clear in the  Dance where both parties want Borros aid. The Vale is a curious case, too.

Stormlands and Vale are closest in proximity to KL excluding the always fractured Riverlands. I think the Targaryens usually put a loyal lord in Harrenhal for added security. Does anyone think the Vale- Stormlands- Dorne coalition of Daeron Ii is powerful enough to create hegemony across dragon-less Westeros. I’m surprised that Daeron II did not try to repeat his Stormlands policy and wed a grandchild to a Reacher marcher lord like the Tarly’s or a powerful second house like the Redwynes to secure Reach support against the Blackfyres.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

It's all the Game of Thrones. Nobody may have specific designs on Highgarden, but they are the most powerful house in the realm. So it's all about creating your own power center if push were ever to come to shove. After Duskendale, of course, the Mad King is getting madder by the minute, so the need for the great houses to unite is growing as well.

 

But the most powerful house in the Realm are the Lannisters bar the own royal house. The Mad King is also not leaving his castle, how can threat Mace or Hoster?? Let alone people like Rickard or Jon Arryn?? Unless they are reckless enough to go near his reach, he's not going to touch them.

 

 

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 Dorne and the Reach are long-time enemies, so they don't need an excuse to consider Highgarden a threat. And note that just before arriving at Casterly Rock, Elia and Oberyn were in Oldtown sizing up the Hightowers for potential matches. 

 

Isn't Hightower a Reach House?? Dorne and the Reach have not been enemies since Daeron's 2 reign.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 We don't know what was going on between Tywin, Hoster and the other lords vis the Iron Throne. Things were not good between Aerys and Tywin, and by the time Jaime/Lysa was being discussed, so Tywin may already have been contemplating an eventual break with Aerys. It never got past the initial discussion stage, but the mere idea that the great houses are suddenly, after all these centuries, talking about intermarriage would be distressing to both Aerys and the Tyrells.

 

  1. Tywin wanted to marry Cersi to a Targ prince.
  2. Why the Tyrells should be distressed?? 
  3. Aerys was worried about Rhaegar.

 

 

13 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 And I also suspect that Lord Luthor Tyrell was either oblivious or not overly concerned by all of this, which is why Lady Olenna had him killed.

Tinfoil.

 

 

2 hours ago, The Merling King said:

Stormlands and Vale are closest in proximity to KL excluding the always fractured Riverlands. I think the Targaryens usually put a loyal lord in Harrenhal for added security. Does anyone think the Vale- Stormlands- Dorne coalition of Daeron Ii is powerful enough to create hegemony across dragon-less Westeros. I’m surprised that Daeron II did not try to repeat his Stormlands policy and wed a grandchild to a Reacher marcher lord like the Tarly’s or a powerful second house like the Redwynes to secure Reach support against the Blackfyres.

Not like the STABL alliance but yes, since the other realms weren't uniting together, the combined force of Dorne-Crownlands-Vale-Stormlands should give pause to anyone. But with another targ pretender, it ofc crumbled.

It's also rather funny that the Stormlands and the Baratheons who were many times key allies to the Targs ended up overthrowing them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, frenin said:

But the most powerful house in the Realm are the Lannisters bar the own royal house. The Mad King is also not leaving his castle, how can threat Mace or Hoster?? Let alone people like Rickard or Jon Arryn?? Unless they are reckless enough to go near his reach, he's not going to touch them.

Isn't Hightower a Reach House?? Dorne and the Reach have not been enemies since Daeron's 2 reign.

  1. Tywin wanted to marry Cersi to a Targ prince.
  2. Why the Tyrells should be distressed?? 
  3. Aerys was worried about Rhaegar.

Tinfoil.

 

Were still talking about the run-up to Robert's Rebellion, right? How do you figure the Lannisters are the most powerful? In seven months, Tywin was able to raise roughly 12,000 to march on King's Landing. Tyrells could field upwards of 50,000, plus the Redwyne fleet, which dwarfs the Lannister fleet. The Reach has been the hegemon for thousands of years. It takes two or three other great houses to equal their might. But all that has changed now.

The Mad King is lord of all the seven kingdoms. He can raise levies from six of the seven if one house becomes troublesome. Even two houses cannot hope to match the power of the Iron Throne. Four though . . .

Likewise, no single house would dare challenge the Reach, nor two, but four . . .   Read the World Book. The only time Highgarden has ever fallen is when the Gardener king at the time made a series of unwise marriages for his daughters, which led to conflict among his banners and the Reach was invaded simultaneously by the westerlands, stormlands and Dorne. Highgarden was sacked; the Oaken Chair that served Gardener kings for thousands of years was hacked to pieces, by the Dornish.

The MK doesn't have to leave his castle in order to send an army into the field, as proven on the Trident. And even then, it's not about the Mad King, it's about the Iron Throne. The MK won't be king forever.

Yes, Hightower is a Reach house, and yes, Dorne and the Reach haven't fought one another openly for a very long time. But this hardly means they are friends. The Reach hates Dorne. Everybody hates Dorne. They are sexual deviates, allow women to rule, and fight using stealth, poisons and other cowardly weapons. What better way to drive a wedge between Highgarden and one of its principal vassals than to add a little Dornish blood to the mix?

Yes, Tywin wanted to marry Cersei to a Targ prince. He didn't though, he married her to a Baratheon king. In one move, he extended his influence from just the westerlands to include both the Iron Throne (and the crownlands) and the stormlands. And just before he died, he had extended that influence even further to control the riverlands through Genna and the north through Tyrion. This creates a Lannister-led power bloc comprising well over half the kingdom, enough to dwarf any army the Tyrells could field. And Tywin is not your typical lord who merely defeats his enemies and then raises them up again minus some lands and honors. He is a ruthless mad dog warlord who burns your lands from horizon to horizon, murders smallfolk in the tens of thousands and leaves them rotting in the dirt, razes your castles to the ground and utterly obliterates your entire line for all time. This is a terrifying prospect for any Tyrell with an ounce of sense.

Anyone who knows anything about horses and hawking can see that this story of Lord Luthor's death is a big fat lie. It doesn't matter what the rider is looking at, no horse is just going blithely walk off the edge of a cliff. Horses are not (that) stupid, nor do they have death wishes. They know full well what happens if they step into empty air. Even if he was at a full gallop, the horse will stop and Lord Luthor goes over the cliff. So maybe some ground gave way or maybe the horse caught a root, but it most certainly did not just ride over the cliff because Luthor was not paying attention.

But this is not the only problem with this story. The fact is, if Luthor was looking up at his bird (and there is really no other plausible reason for him to be looking up), then he should not have been moving at all. The way it works is that you release your bird, it flies out and makes the kill, then drops it and your retrievers bring it back to you. The whole point is that you don't have to move an inch. In fact, it would be foolish to do so. The hawk does not return to you because it wants praise or a treat. It's not a dog. The hawk homes back to its original location. That's why you keep it hooded until it's time to release it: you don't want it homing back to your castle or to some point on the way the hunting grounds. If you let the bird go and then move to another location, all that happens is the bird homes back to its original location, sees that your not there, and that's likely the last you well ever see that bird, and hundreds of man-hours of training flies off with the wind.

Thirdly, there is absolutely no reason why anyone in their right mind would be hawking anywhere near a cliff. All that will happen then is the bird will fly over the edge of the cliff, make a kill, and then drop it to the bottom, leaving you and your dogs miles away. Hawking is always done in flat lands or marshes or some other manageable area.

Sure, Lord Luthor, head of the house that prides itself on the quality of its horses, dogs, hawks and other working animals, may not have the faintest clue what he is doing, but you can bet his trainers, huntsmen and others in his party do. So, no, this story about his death is a flat-out lie, and Lady Olenna is the most likely murderer here because she then became the chief decision-maker at Highgarden.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×