Arya's storyline going forward

[butterweedstrover]

2 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

1. Why? It's not like the House of Black and White is like the Night's Watch or even the Citadel where it's a common destination for young men to be sent off to if they don't have better prospects in life. It's a semi-secretive Braavosi cult of assassins. Who said anything about a random noble's house? With all the connections Varys has he could easily have him raised in a life of obscurity as a commoner in Lys where no one would ever know who he was and his looks wouldn't stand out at all. There's a million options better than sending him to a cult of assassins and completely losing control over him. And again, there is absolutely zero evidence that Ashara Dayne is the waif.

2. That is a massive stretch. There is nothing the text establishing Aegon's backstory to be anything similar to that. If you have to construe an elaborate backstory that will be revealed in the last book or two and then in hindsight you could draw parallels to the backstory of another character, then you do not have very strong evidence for a theory, to put it mildly, and yet you're convinced it's a smoking gun.

1. This is somewhat pedantic. Braavos is near Pentos, just like the wall is near Kingslanding. Both are renown for places where people go to shed their past identities and family ties in favor of a life of duty. Both fit the bill for what Varys and Ilyrio want. 

2. You misunderstand perhaps. Its Jaqen's background, who as I have argued is Aegon. Pate is a stock character who is used to reintroduce Jaqen into the story. His background is used to reveal more about Jaqen (metaphorically), and as I argue said background would fit perfectly with Aegon VI's character journey.   

[kissdbyfire]

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

My other post goes into better depth, you can read it. But I will go through this the best I can. 
 

FYI, it’s very hard and time-consuming to reply when you don’t break up the post. Maybe try doing that in the future, as it makes your replies easier to follow  and reply.

 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

 

1. Aegon is the Valonqar, and 'Jaqen' is Aegon. 
 

If so that means 'Pate', the 'alchemist', and the rest are also him.  

Again, as I’ve said before, that is your “head canon”; it’s an assumption you made b/c it “fits” w/ previous assumptions you’ve made. There is no textual support for Aegon being the valonqar, not for Jaqen being Aegon. You got yourself convinced of this, and then went looking for something to support it. But there is no proper textual support for it. Also, it should be the other way around... you find something in the text that you think could be a clue to something, and then you follow the breadcrumbs to see if they lead anywhere. 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

2. Its odd because why would the visions reinforce an idea that is not true, unless it was of course 

I don’t know what you mean here.

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

3. Yes, Aegon will kill Cersei, he is the one younger and more beautiful, and he will cast her down. You can read more in my Valonqar thread if you want. 
 

The way Maggy speaks to Cersei seems to suggest that the valonqar is another female. 
 

“Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

It’s not a certainty, though, just my take on it. But according to you, who will kill Cersei is “Aegon”, who is now at the Citadel, wearing Pate’s face. Is that it? If so, will he change his face again before killing her? Is he going to wear a face we know? Whose?

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

4. fifteen is too young, he should be eighteen by now 

The real Aegon should be 18/19. But we are not told YG is fifteen. I mean, even if everyone who is with YG knows he’s not the real Aegon, it would be pretty stupid to claim he is fifteen, when that would mean YG cannot possibly be Aegon. It’s only Tyrion who, initially, thinks YG is “fifteen or sixteen”. So, you are taking Tyrion’s wrong assumption, and making another wrong assumption of your own. 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

5. Well... If you read the waif's background story, you'll see she is shifting perspectives from Aegon to Ashara. 
One of the lines was about the father marrying another, which is what many suspect happened between Rhaegar and Ashara. 

They left for the tower of Joy near Harrenhall a year later, so if they pledged themselves to one another it would be under the heart tree in Harrenhall. More than that it fits the story of the tourney at Harrenhall. Arya (Lyanna) comes to Harrenhall with Gendry (Robert) and meets Aegon (Rhaegar). Gendry tells her to stay away from him, but in the end she chooses Aegon over Gendry befriending him and splitting from Gendry. Them comes the scene where Aegon is kneeling in front Arya under the heart tree when she is having a religious crisis, and that is where the line about the king was spoken (something taken out of the show). 

Huh? How? Where did you get that from the waif’s backstory?

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

“I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.”

Many suspect what exactly happened between Rhaegar and Ashara? 
And your interpretation of what happened In Harrenhal w/ Arya, Gendry, and Jaqen is completely different from my own. 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

6. We know Ashara was pregnant, we just don't know when she gave birth. The offical story was when Ned arrived at Starfall but that is too convenient.  

But if she did have a baby out of wedlock, she would need to keep it a secret, and switching her baby with Aegon so Varys could keep him safe was a deal she'd be in the position to accept. When Ned arrives with news from KL, she knows that was her child with the face bashed in and attempts suicide suicide thematically fitting with the "still-born" story.    
 

We don’t actually know Ashara was pregnant. Yes, it’s very likely, but as of right now we don’t know for sure. 
But more importantly, what you propose makes no sense whatsoever. You claim she gave birth while still in KL, and you also mention she had to keep it a secret because she wasn’t married. So, please explain how would she have been able to conceal not only a full pregnancy, but also giving birth while at court? 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

7. Ashara was whispering into Brandon's ear about Rhaegar and how he wanted Lyanna. She didn't mean to start a war, but she feels partly responsible. It also fits with the 'poison' story the waif tells (whispering poison into one's ears).   

More wild assumptions based on nothing from the text imo.

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

8. Arya is the only girl who has comparison's drawn between herself and Lyanna. And Jeyne's nickname of "horseface" is a dead give away. That's why I think she will play a similar role to Lyanna, but things will play out differently this time (Major Theme: History repeating itself) 

Arya is the only girl compared to Lyanna, yes. But that’s because she’s the only girl we’ve met who actually looks like Lyanna. And that comparison added to several scattered comments about Jon and Arya having the Stark look is meant as a clue to R+L=J. 

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

9. The show changes things but she has a combative relationship with Gendry, the Hound, Yoren, the Kindly Man, and everyone else since her father died. And there is a reason, she doesn't want to trust anyone. Even if there is underlying warmth in these relationships, this is what is presented to us. Jaqen however is the special exception, she saves him out of her own will, and trusts him enough to ask for his help, and even goes as far as traveling to Braavos to find him again.  

He also kisses her hair when they first come to their agreement (just something I thought I should note). 
 

No discussion of the abomination here. 
I wholeheartedly disagree w/ your assessment of all of Arya’s relationships. 

She saved Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge because she is a very empathetic individual, and couldn’t stand the thought of leaving them to burn to death. 
And she didn’t seek Jaqen to ask for help. It was Jaqen who went to her, to pay his debt.

ACoK, Arya VII

“Arya was dreaming of wolves running wild through the wood when a strong hand clamped down over her mouth like smooth warm stone, solid and unyielding. She woke at once, squirming and struggling. “A girl says nothing,” a voice whispered close behind her ear. “A girl keeps her lips closed, no one hears, and friends may talk in secret. Yes?”
Heart pounding, Arya managed the tiniest of nods.
Jaqen H’ghar took his hand away. The cellar was black as pitch and she could not see his face, even inches away. She could smell him, though; his skin smelled clean and soapy, and he had scented his hair. “A boy becomes a girl,” he murmured.
“I was always a girl. I didn’t think you saw me.”
“A man sees. A man knows.”
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?”

22 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

10. I don't believe so. If you read my other post you'll see why I think that is Aegon's real face. Besides the descriptions fitting the Targaryen look (chiseled face with white hair) and his look/mannerism being described as "regal", we should also look at where we found him, in the black cells. He was being sent to the wall in chains, and needed Arya's help to escape. 

He wasn't planning on going to the wall because remember as he is leaving Harrenhall, he tells Arya he is returning to Braavos and he has a duty to fullfill. She is asked to come but she says she needs to find her family, they part ways. 

In my full explanation I look at Pate's background story (I suggest you read it) in AFFC and discuss how it is a metaphor for Aegon VI. 

He is taken in by Varys and Ilyrio, they send him to the house of black and white at thirteen (age requirement) in hopes that he will give up his claim to the throne. He goes but is still a dragon at heart, so eventual pursues Ilyrio back to KL where he was meeting Varys. He is rejected by them, and Rugen (read: Varys) puts him in the black cells hoping that taking the black would remove his claim to the throne (and make way for YG). He goes back to the kindly man but is rejected by him as well, then takes the contract for Euron's egg and is now looking to hatch it in the citadel to prove his lineage. 

He changes his face to the alchemist so Varys' spies don't find him (remember Harrenhall is a ways off from the narrow sea so he still has land to cover). Reading the description leads me to believe he was using a glamour to change his face, but it could just be a mask he brought with him. 

11. The FM, at least by how the kindly man speak, only take from whatever that person values the most. If they want a contract then they must give to them whatever thing is most important to them. That could be gold, their children, or their own lives. 

Euron didn't pay with the dragon binding horn, nor his Valyrian steel armor, but with a dragon egg he himself called "useless". 

Aegon took that contract while in the house of black and white because he needed an egg for his own purpose, which would explain how this alchemist first got a dragon egg and how Euron paid for his contract. 

(extra note: look at the resemblance of Pate wanting a 'dragon' (gold coin) and the alchemist wanting a dragon (real).  

No, of course Jaqen wasn’t “planning” on going to the Wall; he was being sent to the Wall, caged and in chains, as punishment. 
As to the rest, sorry, I really, really don’t see anything that is supported by the text, just lots and lots of assumptions. 

[butterweedstrover]

49 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

FYI, it’s very hard and time-consuming to reply when you don’t break up the post. Maybe try doing that in the future, as it makes your replies easier to follow  and reply.

 

 

I want to reply but I'm also incompetent, how do I break up my post? 

PS. I meant Lyanna and Rhaegar, not Ashara and Rhaegar

[kissdbyfire]

2 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I want to reply but I'm also incompetent, how do I break up my post? 

PS. I meant Lyanna and Rhaegar, not Ashara and Rhaegar

Hi. I hope this helps.
To break yup the post you’re trying to reply: go to the point where you want to break the post and press enter twice. 

[spearson]

Unrelated to above conversation.  I think Arya is one of the characters where people craft their theories based on multiple mediums, and the theory often doesn't make sense to her literary character.  The common thread is some type of confrontation between Arya and Lady Stoneheart, or Arya warging a wolf army, or Arya just being a stone cold assassin, or getting kicked out of the HoBaW. 

 

Arya is on a classic Hero's Journey.  She's in the special world setting and we haven't yet seen the crux of her inner conflict, or any sign of the Ordeal that's the T in the road back to Arya Stark of Winterfell.  Arya has a ways to go yet and as of the Mercy chapter we see she is fully invested in No One. 

Sidebar (Mercy showcases a play that is subtle plot that we only get Mercy's POV of.  Even though Arya gets a quickening blow in, it's Mercy who issues the fatal swipe.   She isn't getting kicked out of anything.)

There is a whole lot that is about to go down in Braavos that she is going to be in the thick of, and we already know that George could write a whole book just about her adventures in Braavos, so she's not coming home any time soon.

In my opinion, it's going to be family that changes her direction.  She thinks she's alone and all her siblings are dead.  She may even get word of a dead or dying Jon.   But who is most likely to cross paths with her? None other than Rickon and his wolf Shaggydog. 

In fact in a funny twist, we seem to know a lot about all the different animals, and the Menagerie at the Sealord's Palace.  I wouldn't be surprised if said T in the road is her finding a direwolf she recognizes as Shaggydog at the Menagerie which leads her to her still living brother and her literally seizing her sword and finally choosing Arya.  Here we learn a wolf named Shaggydog ends Arya's payoff-less Shaggydog story in Braavos..

[butterweedstrover]

3 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

FYI, it’s very hard and time-consuming to reply when you don’t break up the post. Maybe try doing that in the future, as it makes your replies easier to follow  and reply.

Ok this is really cool, thank you. 

I feel like I have a new superpower, the other forum I frequent needs the base code like [/quote] and the posters name repeated every time for the post to split up.  

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Again, as I’ve said before, that is your “head canon”; it’s an assumption you made b/c it “fits” w/ previous assumptions you’ve made. There is no textual support for Aegon being the valonqar, not for Jaqen being Aegon. You got yourself convinced of this, and then went looking for something to support it. But there is no proper textual support for it. Also, it should be the other way around... you find something in the text that you think could be a clue to something, and then you follow the breadcrumbs to see if they lead anywhere.  

I think we're getting a little ahead of ourselves. I am convinced Aegon is the Valonqar based on how the prophecy is told (the little brother in Valyrian) but Jaqen being Aegon does have textual support.  

Its like an A=C and B=C therefore A=B equation.   

But suffice to say I go back to character descriptions. Cersei claims Rhaegar is the most beautiful man in the world (more than her brother) soon after reciting the prophecy. In Harrenhall Jaqen shares that description as well as "regal" mannerism. Young Griff doesn't, or at least hasn't been described as particularly attractive.  Jon Snow doesn't look anything like Rhaegar nor is he described as particularly beautiful or handsome. 

Who else would be younger and more beautiful than Rhaegar except for his own son?

 

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I don’t know what you mean here. 

Only that highlighting the visions in the house of the undying as being foreshadowing. It shows Rhaegar calling Aegon VI the prince of was promised and showing a black and white door. Given how much foreshadowing is done in the house of the undying (the red wedding for example) I wouldn't be surprised if these visions were more than just fluff. There is a part in that same vision with Rhaegar when he calls Aegon the song of ice and fire. Dany later asks Jorah what this means and he says he's never heard that word before. If the vision was just extra world building and no foreshadowing, why is so much emphasis put on it?

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The way Maggy speaks to Cersei seems to suggest that the valonqar is another female. 
 

“Queen you shall be . . . until there comes another, younger and more beautiful, to cast you down and take all that you hold dear.”

It’s not a certainty, though, just my take on it. But according to you, who will kill Cersei is “Aegon”, who is now at the Citadel, wearing Pate’s face. Is that it? If so, will he change his face again before killing her? Is he going to wear a face we know? Whose? 

I think he'd wear his own face, though the words 'hands wrapped around your throat' could mean he uses the strangler poison on her, which would mean he doesn't even have to be in the room for that to happen. 

This is all speculation though, we'll have to read the final two books. 

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The real Aegon should be 18/19. But we are not told YG is fifteen. I mean, even if everyone who is with YG knows he’s not the real Aegon, it would be pretty stupid to claim he is fifteen, when that would mean YG cannot possibly be Aegon. It’s only Tyrion who, initially, thinks YG is “fifteen or sixteen”. So, you are taking Tyrion’s wrong assumption, and making another wrong assumption of your own.  

They'd have to be told he is 18 or 19 but at that age your physical looks change a lot. I'm 22 right now, and I look a lot like how I looked when I was 18. But my 16 years old self was a completely different person. 

I'm not saying people on the boat don't believe he's Aegon (at least Jon Connington does) but I am saying Tyrion, without knowing his identity, guessed an age range that is quite different from how old he is suppose to be. I don't think that would be added as just a mistake on his part. Its part of the larger foreshadowing that insinuates YG is a fake. 

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Huh? How? Where did you get that from the waif’s backstory?

AFfC, Cat of the Canals

“I was born the only child of an ancient House, my noble father’s heir,” the waif replied. “My mother died when I was little, I have no memory of her. When I was six my father wed again. His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own. Then it was her wish that I should die, so her own blood might inherit my father’s wealth. She should have sought the favor of the Many-Faced God, but she could not bear the sacrifice he would ask of her. Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die. When the healers in the House of the Red Hands told my father what she had done, he came here and made sacrifice, offering up all his wealth and me. Him of Many Faces heard his prayer. I was brought to the temple to serve, and my father’s wife received the gift.” 

Again, my apologize I meant Lyanna and Rhaegar, not Ashara and Rhaegar.  

And I'll start again by repeating that her background shifts between Aegon VI and Ashara's perspective. It plays with the truth/lie game that is underlining this discussion.

Lets look at the quote: 

1. "an ancient house": That fits house Dayne. Maybe more so than it fits the Targaryens.  

2. "my noble father's heir": Aegon is Rheagar's heir, and Rhaegar is described as "noble" in the books 

3. "My mother died when I was little": Elia died when Aegon was a baby 

4.  "When I was six my father wed again": Aegon is the sixth in his line and heir to the throne. Rhaegar however wed again (Lyanna) even with him as his successor.  

5.  "His new wife treated me kindly until she gave birth to a daughter of her own": Lyanna is described as kind and bared no ill will to Elia, but Ashara saw her as a threat to Elia's children (remember Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting, and they were really close).  

6. "Instead, she thought to poison me herself. It left me as you see me now, but I did not die": Ashara poisoned Brandon with whispers that Rhaegar was using Lyanna (partly to get Lyanna away from Rhaegar). Elia is too meek to defend herself so that is what Ashara did.  

But that started a war and got her own child killed instead and "left me as you see me now, but I did not die (people think Ashara is dead). 

Note: Arya asks if the faceless god only took 2/3 of her father's wealth, and the waif said yes. 

The father is Rhaegar and he had three children, two of them survive, one of them didn't 

Ashara regrets betraying Rhaegar (by trying to split Lyanna from him) and is now in the house of black and white for penance. So was the son (Aegon) who is the "red hand" which symbolizes vengeance. Aegon is the red hand, the tool used to avenge his father.   

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Many suspect what exactly happened between Rhaegar and Ashara? 
And your interpretation of what happened In Harrenhal w/ Arya, Gendry, and Jaqen is completely different from my own.  

That's fine but I'll add a few indisputable facts. Lyanna and Robert came to the tourney together, and Robert didn't like Rhaegar. 

Gendry and Arya come to Harrenhall together, and he doesn't like Jaqen. I do assume however that Lyanna and Rhaegar liked each other, and she chose him over Robert, like how Arya chooses Jaqen over Gendry. 

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We don’t actually know Ashara was pregnant. Yes, it’s very likely, but as of right now we don’t know for sure. 
But more importantly, what you propose makes no sense whatsoever. You claim she gave birth while still in KL, and you also mention she had to keep it a secret because she wasn’t married. So, please explain how would she have been able to conceal not only a full pregnancy, but also giving birth while at court?  

She had Elia, Varys, and probably Rhaegar helping her along the way. They could have figured a way to keep the baby secret all together. Especially in the red keep with its secret passageways allowing people to move from one room to another without Guards seeing you. 

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More wild assumptions based on nothing from the text imo. 

In world of a song of ice and fire

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Arya is the only girl compared to Lyanna, yes. But that’s because she’s the only girl we’ve met who actually looks like Lyanna. And that comparison added to several scattered comments about Jon and Arya having the Stark look is meant as a clue to R+L=J.  

And yet I still find Arya's parallels to Lyanna convincing, especially "horseface".

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No discussion of the abomination here. 
I wholeheartedly disagree w/ your assessment of all of Arya’s relationships. 

She saved Jaqen, Biter, and Rorge because she is a very empathetic individual, and couldn’t stand the thought of leaving them to burn to death. 
And she didn’t seek Jaqen to ask for help. It was Jaqen who went to her, to pay his debt.

ACoK, Arya VII

“Arya was dreaming of wolves running wild through the wood when a strong hand clamped down over her mouth like smooth warm stone, solid and unyielding. She woke at once, squirming and struggling. “A girl says nothing,” a voice whispered close behind her ear. “A girl keeps her lips closed, no one hears, and friends may talk in secret. Yes?”
Heart pounding, Arya managed the tiniest of nods.
Jaqen H’ghar took his hand away. The cellar was black as pitch and she could not see his face, even inches away. She could smell him, though; his skin smelled clean and soapy, and he had scented his hair. “A boy becomes a girl,” he murmured.
“I was always a girl. I didn’t think you saw me.”
“A man sees. A man knows.”
She remembered that she hated him. “You scared me. You’re one of them now, I should have let you burn. What are you doing here? Go away or I’ll yell for Weese.”
“A man pays his debts. A man owes three.”
“Three?” 

It's true that she is empathetic, but she is also learning to doubt the motives of others, especially when the stark men are killed and betrayed. 

Going out of her way to save three outlaws she doesn't know after having Yoren get attacked by men loyal to the king is a significant decision that sets her apart from everyone else. 

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No, of course Jaqen wasn’t “planning” on going to the Wall; he was being sent to the Wall, caged and in chains, as punishment. 
As to the rest, sorry, I really, really don’t see anything that is supported by the text, just lots and lots of assumptions. 

Umm.. did you read what I said? 

I said Jaqen wasn't planning to go to the wall, he wanted to escape. Varys was the one who wanted him sent there so he would take the black.

[kissdbyfire]

On 8/27/2020 at 1:48 PM, butterweedstrover said:

Ok this is really cool, thank you. 

I feel like I have a new superpower, the other forum I frequent needs the base code like [/quote] and the posters name repeated every time for the post to split up.  

I’m glad, superpowers are always cool! 
 

I have read your reply, and we really see things very differently. We will have to wait and resume this convo once we have more info.

[butterweedstrover]

5 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

I’m glad, superpowers are always cool! 
 

I have read your reply, and we really see things very differently. We will have to wait and resume this convo once we have more info.

Seriously though, we need to pray and hope TWOW comes out soon, the theory well is drying up fast. 

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 8/26/2020 at 9:07 PM, butterweedstrover said:

1. This is somewhat pedantic. Braavos is near Pentos, just like the wall is near Kingslanding. Both are renown for places where people go to shed their past identities and family ties in favor of a life of duty. Both fit the bill for what Varys and Ilyrio want. 

2. You misunderstand perhaps. Its Jaqen's background, who as I have argued is Aegon. Pate is a stock character who is used to reintroduce Jaqen into the story. His background is used to reveal more about Jaqen (metaphorically), and as I argue said background would fit perfectly with Aegon VI's character journey.   

1. I don't think it's pedantic at all. There's very little reason for Varys and Illyrio to raise the real Aegon to be sent to the House of Black and White alongside YG who they are pretending to be Aegon. It only makes sense if you start from the conclusion that Aegon = Jaqen and work backwards.

2. Again, this only makes sense if you make assumptions about the background of Jaqen and Aegon that are not stated or hinted at anywhere in the text. 

[butterweedstrover]

4 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

1. I don't think it's pedantic at all. There's very little reason for Varys and Illyrio to raise the real Aegon to be sent to the House of Black and White alongside YG who they are pretending to be Aegon. It only makes sense if you start from the conclusion that Aegon = Jaqen and work backwards.

It does if they don't want anyone to know about them. 

Remeber Tyrion's description of Ilyrio's mansion? the high walls and the loyal guards to make sure rumors don't spread about his whereabouts. 

The only place they can ensure both are kept secret is in the mansion, and they are both babies so Ilyrio and Varys have total control of what they know/don't know. 

YG was also born after Aegon so their plans weren't fully formed yet.