Arya's storyline going forward

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

On 8/23/2020 at 2:36 PM, butterweedstrover said:

I'll give you this, I don't think she will end up as queen of the seven kingdoms. 

Bran will be king according to GRRM and that story line is separate from Arya's. 

But I do think she will be the partner of the king, Aegon VI. 

Like I said Aegon is planning to crack a dragon egg (Summerhall 2.0) and Arya has befriended him in Harrenhall. The TGHH saw her visions after they had befriended each other, and remember Aegon pledged to help her kneeling under the heart tree in Harrenhall. 

Lyanna never became queen, but she partnered with the crowned prince. I think something similar will happen with Arya.  

Just to make sure I understand this theory correctly - you think Jaqen Hghar is Aegon? Young Griff, the supposed son of Rhaegar?

[sweetsunray]

I agree with @kissdbyfire that we ought to be skeptical of the assumption that Stannis will burn the tree. I don't think the actual text supports this assumption. However, Stannis burning the weirwood on the island has become over the years an accepted expectation because of Cantuse's Night Lamp Theory. And while the overall proposal by Cantuse is quite convincing, and something I agree with, it's still just a proposal and Cantuse may have details wrong. The important thing is that Stannis's sword will shine blindlingly bright, and it's possible this can be achieved without burning a tree.

One of the issues with Stannis managing to conquer Winterfell (after the Battle of Ice) is that we have been warned by Jon that Stannis might end up burning the weirwood of WF's godswood. We know that Stannis believes in those with magical powers, not necessarily their gods. So, he believes Mel has certain powers, but he's not exactly a believer of Rh'llor. If Bran somehow manages to show the magical powers of the Old Gods before Stannis' very eyes and ears, then Stannis will loathe to risk burning weirwoods, especially if those powers were the ones that manage to give him a victory at the lakes and for Winterfell. 

Bran skinchaning Theon  just as he's about to be beheaded in front of a weirwood by Stannis with his sword and passing on the crucial info to move around within the castle undetected is such a feat. We know Bran knows the secret ways, better than Theon. This is the perfect time to reveal it to Stannis. He needs that info to stealthily take the castle while everybody believes him dead. And the mention early on in aGoT of Bran knowing these ways in and about as the sole one,  is a chekhov gun. You don't write Bran having that type of info and not use it at some point, and here is the perfect situation to reveal it. However, a raven or weirwood tree rustling leaves won't do it. It requires another human being to physically speak for Bran. And we know that it's not just sacrifice, but self-sacrifice, volunteering that is the fitting sacrifice when it comes to old gods magic. Theon/Reek has been doggified, including wearing dog collar by Ramsay. It makes Theon a "dog" character. Wargs skinchange wolves and dogs. Theon shifts through Reek fears and Theon's smiling sarcasm throughout the released tWoW chapter, until the ravens (skinchanged by Bran and BR) say his name. That's the moment Theon feels happy and giddy, like a child... or a loyal dog. If he had a tail, he'd be wagging it. It's setting Theon up to be a "good boy" to Bran attempting to skinchange him in front of a weirwood. And it makes Theon a parallel to his uncle, a divine speaker, not for the Drowned God, but the Old Gods. 

Bran's the most magical character aside from Dany in the books, and it's "time for wolf magic". Do you truly believe George will only have Bran look into the past in BR's cave, only skinchange ravens and flap and screech about names for the rest of the series? Do you think Bran interacting with Theon at Winterfell in aDwD was just to help Theon find himself again and rescue Jeyne Poole. To me it seems a set up of a narrative between those 2 that will continue in tWoW, even though they're apart, where Theon fully redeems himself. Surrendering his fragmented mind can be part of it (and yes I think we'll see Bran try to do the same with Patchface at CB, exactly because it worked with Theon, but that will go wrong and ugly imho).

There might be a burning, of Arnolf Karstark afterwards, but not with a burning weirwood imo. Bran's arc in aGoT and aCoK was one of being converted to the Old Gods, but I expect him to be the one doing the converting in tWoW. And conversion happens best when events appear to be miraculous. But Bran skinchanging Theon is no more deus ex machina than Stannis's sword shining blindingly bright. 

[butterweedstrover]

11 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

Just to make sure I understand this theory correctly - you think Jaqen Hghar is Aegon? Young Griff, the supposed son of Rhaegar?

No, YG is a blackfyre like Varys. 

However Varys did switch the babies and stowed away Aegon VI to Pentos, that was how his cloths were in the box Ilyrio gave Duck. YG didn't recognize it because he wasn't the real Aegon.

Ashara Dayne who was Elia's lady in waiting had her baby switched at the start of the war. When Ned arrives at starfall he is first with word of KL, and tells her what happened to 'Aegon'. Ashara realizes what she has done and jumps into the water, but survives. 

When Aegon was thirteen he was sent to the house of black and white at 13 (the age requirment) since Ilyrio and Varys thought that would force him to give up his claim.  

This is why Dany and Viserys are homeless for some thirteen years or less, because Aegon (and YG, Ilyrio's son) are occupying the mansion in Pentos. 

Once Aegon is sent of to the house of black and white and YG is sent off with Connington they moved in Daenerys and Viserys. 

Aegon ditches the FM after a while and follows Ilyrio to KL (first book), asking for the dragon eggs probably, and Rugen (varys) has him locked up in the black cells hoping that him taking the black would again force him to lose all claims to the throne. 

He told Yoren to keep him locked up so he doesn't escape, but Varys wasn't expecting Arya (important character). The entire sub plot at Harrenhall is a parallel to the tourney at Harrenhall with Gendry playing Robert, Jaqen playing Aegon, and Arya playing Lyanna. 

Gendry has black hair and likes playing with his war hammers, Jaqen has a chiseled Targaryen face and white hair (the red is for Elia, his dornish mother), and Arya is a wild stark Girl like Lyanna (Sansa is more Tully). 

Gendry wants Arya to stay away from Aegon, but Arya chooses him over Gendry (just like Lyanna). The scene under the heart tree where Aegon pledges to help Arya is reminiscent to when we assume Lyanna pledged herself to Rhaegar under the old gods. 

That scene is where the pivotal discussion happens. Arya asks him if he could kill a king, and he asks who, Joffrey? Then Arya leans in and says Jaqen H'ghar. 

His accent breaks and he is described as more worried than when he was in the burning cart.  He thinks he is found out, but quickly realizes that is not what she meant. 

Having been rejected by Ilyrio and Varys he changes his face so Varys' spies won't catch him and returns to the house of black and white. He asks Arya to come with him but chooses his duty (his words, not mine) over the girl (Rhaegar chose Lyanna over taking his fathers throne and the realm suffered, Aegon fixes the cycle by choosing duty over the girl). 

He returns and is rejected by the kindly man when asked for help reclaiming the throne and fulfilling his prophecy (Remember, Aegon was always said to be the prince who was promised). 

He takes the contract from Euron for a dragon egg (something the FM wouldn't usually do because Euron put no worth in the egg) and kills Balon.  

He takes the dragon egg to the citadel to find the book on dragons and how to crack a dragon egg. He is trying to repeat Summerhall, something the ghost of high heart was originally responsible for. The Ghost of High Heart sees darkness in Arya because the girl is tied to Aegon (the coin) and will inadvertently or deliberately help him redo the ritual.   

He wants a dragon to prove his birth claims over young griff.

Don't believe me? The book tells us in the prologue to AFFC. Pate's backstory is a metaphor for Aegons: 

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands, but Ebrose’s sighs had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

five plus thirteen is eighteen, the age Aegon should be by book four. Thirteen is the age limit for new disciples to the house of black and white (Arya had the coin so she is a special case). "remained as pink as the day he arrived" means Aegon was still a dragon despite being taught to be nobody. 

He believed himself ready to take his place as Aegon VI just like Pate believed himself ready twice. 

The first Archmaester is called Vaellyn. Va is for Varys, and lly is for Ilyrio. 

Vinegar is bitter like the taste of rejection, he was rejected by Varys and Ilyrio, the men he thought would help him.  

The he went to the kindly man in the house of black and white (after harrenhall). Ebrose is described as "kindly old" with a "soft voice". His "sighs" are how he shows disappointment with Arya when she embraces her own identity. These sighs were given to Aegon for clinging to his. 

The Waif is Ashara Dayne, she survived and joined the house of black and white, while Umma has dornish traits like Wylla. 

Read the waifs backstory where she is telling half lies and half truths. Now read her story as if the first person is changing line to line. At times she is describing Aegon, at times she is describing Ashara. Whenever she is about to reveal something to Arya the kindly man interrupts. 

 A combination of the waif telling her who Jaqen is and Justin Massey talking about fArya will motivate Arya to return to westeros. 

GRRM was clever by hiding Aegon behind a few different names: Azor Ahai, the Prince of was promised, and the Valonqar. 

 

If you read Maggy's prophecy again, the Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful are the same person. Rhaegar is the only person Cersei describes as beautiful (the man she thinks she is going to marry) and Aegon VI, his son, is a younger more beautiful version of him (Jaqen is also described as beautiful). 

 The Valonqar and the one younger and more beautiful take everything from Cersei, so lets go through them. 

Right now she has lost Joffrey and Tywin. 

Lets start with Tywin, it looks like Oberyn poisoned him with widow's blood.  

But there is someone who ties the two together, Sarella is where the alchemist is, and Oberyn was traveling around Essos. 

He crossed paths with Aegon and made up a plan to kill Tywin, presumably Aegon gave him the widows blood.  

Oberyn kept this plan from Doran because he new Doran had other plans for Tywin (wanting to take everything from him) , and Oberyn is more rash so making this plan to kill Tywin with Elia's son fits his MO 

He is not a person to keep secrets like Varys or Baelish, so he is a liability to GRRM. 

He knows too much and too soon, which is why he dies. He was planning on taking Tyrion back to Dorne where he would have spilled the beans. 

Sarella could know but besides that I think he took that secret to the grave. 

Joffrey is where we hit the hard part. It looks like Olenna. 

But wait, GRRM has this to say in an interview back in 2014: (paraphrasing) 'observant readers should think its Olenna, but I have more to reveal about that in later books'. 

I think Aegon worked with Olenna and Oberyn without either one knowing they had a mutual acquaintance. 

 

Her is an extra tidbit for you. GRRM always has his work compared to Tolkien, so he his a reference.  

The Quill and Tankard is a tavern like the Prancing Pony. 

In both book series their is a hooded man in the corner of a tavern going by a false name watching our POV characters who is also a secret prince (next in line to be king). 

Strider is Aragorn II, and the alchemist is Aegon VI. 

   

[Nevets]

Not that this has anything to do with Arya's story going forward but:

Bran is not going to skinchange Theon.  He has no idea that he has even made contact at all.  It's only a few days later so I doubt he has time to learn, especially from hundreds of miles away.  Any contact for now is going to be glitchy and uncertain. 

Bran might know secret ways around Winterfell but not secret ways in.  If so they would have been used during Theon's occupation.  My guess is that Stannis will use the Karstark troops to do a false flag operation.  They have to prove their loyalty so will probably cooperate for now.

I think Stannis (and GRRM) will keep Theon around for awhile.   GRRM is going to need all the POVs he can scrounge for coverage of the North.  Stannis might find him useful or decide to send him to the Wall.  I doubt he will survive to the end of TWOW though. 

I have doubts about Massey and Arya although I think it is possible that they hear about trouble at CB and avoid it.  Unlike Asha, who Massey has his sights on, Arya is underage and validly married, as far as he knows.  Also, Alysanne Mormont and Tycho Nestoris might have something to say about it.  I doubt Nestoris's instructions include letting Massey chill in Braavos while courting Arya.

 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

No, YG is a blackfyre like Varys.    

I'll give you this, that is a new one. I didn't buy any of it, but I have to commend you for having a great imagination, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity.

[butterweedstrover]

4 hours ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

I'll give you this, that is a new one. I didn't buy any of it, but I have to commend you for having a great imagination, and I mean that with the utmost sincerity.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[kissdbyfire]

11 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

When Aegon was thirteen he was sent to the house of black and white at 13 (the age requirment) since Ilyrio and Varys thought that would force him to give up his claim.  

I’m curious, what led you to the conclusion that Aegon, Rhaegar’s son, is in fact Jaqen H’ghar? I mean, where are the clues in the text pointing to it?

[butterweedstrover]

Just now, kissdbyfire said:

I’m curious, what led you to the conclusion that Aegon, Rhaegar’s son, is in fact Jaqen H’ghar? I mean, where are the clues in the text pointing to it?

Everywhere. 

Though its more the fact that Aegon goes by multiple names in the story, the alchemist, Azor Ahai, the prince of was promised, the Valonqar, Pate, and last but not least Jaqen H'ghar. 

I used to the H'ghar was Rhaegar spelled backwards, but Jaqen doesn't fit with that pattern, however it was the first clue that lead me down this path of thinking. 

The other thing was how odd he was, he'd smile every place he went in Harrenhall and was exceedingly attractive. He's described as regal in many verses. But it couldn't be Rhaegar, besides the fact he was dead, Rhaegar was melancholy most of the time. 

But lets talk about Dany first. 

She has two important visions in the house of the undying. One is of a black and white door, the other is Rhaegar claiming Aegon VI is the prince of was promised. 

I found it odd this was being shared with Dany, but it reinforced my mind Aegon was important. A lot of people thought the head being bashed in was a red herring in the first book, but why would it be repeated so many times? Setting up YG maybe, but everywhere I looked Aegon was decidedly important. 

Then the fourth book comes along (with most of the evidence). And the Valonqar was what hit me. 

"The Little Brother" (the person I was thinking about most of the time, Rhaenys little brother). It was in Valyrian for a reason and the 'the' wasn't a mistake.  

I had in my head read about Aegon as the little brother since book one, since he 'died' everyone only considered him as the little brother since he himself never grow up into his own person. 

Then minutes later Cersei goes on a random tangent about how beautiful Aurane Waters is but not as "beautiful" as Rhaegar, who was the most "Beautiful" person in the world. 

The use of what I thought was a gendered pronoun was odd, but then I remembered the words: "younger and more beautiful". 

Who was "younger and more beautiful" than Rhaegar but his son. 

Anyways I finished the fifth book hoping for answers, but all I got was YG who seemed a fake. 

However there are a few important things about him. He is too young to be Aegon VI (I don't see how Connington can't see this), the baby cloths Ilyrio gives to Duck are not mentioned by YG as he has no subconscious association to them.  

It did provide me with an explanation of how the child survive, Varys was ordered (probably by Rhaegar to have his baby switched). 

Then I thought Rhaenys was switched too. The more I thought about that the more I thought about the Lemon door, and eventually I got to the point where I thought Daenerys is Rhaenys, and the three heads of the dragon are Jon, Dany, and Jaqen (all false names). 

But someone pointed out to me (as I had forgotten) that Rhaenys looked dornish with black hair and was far too old. I had thought the vision in the house of the undying where Dany was watching Rhaegar and Elia talk about their son was a memory, but again she was too young. 

And people knew Rhaenys was dead, so I started to doubt a little. 

Then I thought, how much do we know about Rhaegar, can it really be said he cared about his wife and children? He left them for Lyanna, he ignored them, and he was more obsessed over a prophecy than anything else. 

Now we know he was convinced that Aegon was the prince of was promised, so he would make sure that the babies were switched so he'd survive the war. 

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting who had a secret son she didn't want anyone to know about, so they switched their babies. It could have been a peasant boy, but Ashara explains one thing that bothered me. 

How could Ned's appearance at Starfall so perfectly coincide with her still born? It made no sense, but one thing Ned brought with him was news from Kingslanding. She knew her baby had died, but Ned didn't so she tried to kill herself (remember she was egging Brandon on to start a war so its partly her fault). 

That solves that mystery, it solves who the Prince who was promised was, its solves the Valonqar, now I just needed to know who Aegon was (I was so convinced at this point Aegon was alive I was ready to look at any part of the text). 

What led me to him was Arya. Now the girl is important because she is described as having the wild stark look. Is there anyone else besides Lyanna described like that? Not Sansa, not Alys Karstark, not anyone. 

But Jeyne Poole was the dead give away, what did she call Arya? Horseface. 

Lyanna was the horse girl, and Ned even says Arya will become queen one day. 

Remember Arya was an important character in GRRM first draft, so her story is important. 

It seems ancillary to the main plot but there is only one person besides Syrio Forell she is tied to. 

Remember in the books her and Gendry, the Hounds, etc. were not friendly relationships, in fact she pushed most people around her away, and Yoren died too soon to mean anything to her. 

But she did save one man, and she did tie his fate to his. 

Now I go back to my Rhaegar theory. The man has white hair and a chiseled face (Targaryen look). But what is with his red hair? Well Red (not crimson) is Martell/Dornish color, so half his head is for his father, the other half for his mother. 

Then the clues all came crashing down, the pledge underneath the heart tree, the fact that Gendry disliked him so much (Just like Robert and Rhaegar). 

And the show. 

There were lines between Jaqen and Arya they changed for seemingly no reason. But the most important one was under the heart tree. Jaqen is asking about which king Arya wants killed and she answers Jaqen. Why would they change that phrasing when they kept the scene besides that? 

And his confident demeanor falls. He smiles so much because he is hiding a secret in front of everyone, just like Hugor and Alleras do. 

He was beautiful so that fit the bill, and he had a duty to fulfill. And he wasn't a normal faceless man, he kills while looking Pate in the eyes, he takes a contract from Euron that isn't paid off by the rules of the house of black and white, and now he is playing sneak thief in the citadel. 

However someone pointed me towards the 'pate' backstory and it was a done deal after that. 

Read it in my other post, I don't see how it could mean anything else. 

Figuring out how it all happened was another thing, and I give credit to lots of people to helping figure out the sequence of events. 

But we come back to Arya, the girl of ice. 

Jon is both Ice and Fire. 

Jon and Dany being Ice and Fire would be a nice fantasy trope . Attractive well grown people being taught to lead are now the destined ones. 

But GRRM hates tropes, and Arya was the most important (female) character in the original draft.    

So now Arya is ice and Aegon is fire. 

[kissdbyfire]

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Everywhere. 

Though its more the fact that Aegon goes by multiple names in the story, the alchemist, Azor Ahai, the prince of was promised, the Valonqar, Pate, and last but not least Jaqen H'ghar. 

I appreciate the explanation, cheers. However, I do have a few issues and questions. For instance, In the quote above you say “Aegon goes by multiple names in the story”, and then you list several names. But it isn’t true that Aegon goes by those names in the story; that’s just an assumption of yours. And the fact is, there’s nothing in the text connecting Aegon to the alchemist, or Jaqen, or the valonqar, or Pate. Only with the PtwP and maybe AA there’s a connection, at least as far as Rhaegar’s beliefs go (at one point anyway).

 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

I used to the H'ghar was Rhaegar spelled backwards, but Jaqen doesn't fit with that pattern, however it was the first clue that lead me down this path of thinking. 

The other thing was how odd he was, he'd smile every place he went in Harrenhall and was exceedingly attractive. He's described as regal in many verses. But it couldn't be Rhaegar, besides the fact he was dead, Rhaegar was melancholy most of the time. 

But lets talk about Dany first. 

She has two important visions in the house of the undying. One is of a black and white door, the other is Rhaegar claiming Aegon VI is the prince of was promised. 

I found it odd this was being shared with Dany, but it reinforced my mind Aegon was important. A lot of people thought the head being bashed in was a red herring in the first book, but why would it be repeated so many times? Setting up YG maybe, but everywhere I looked Aegon was decidedly important. 

Why? What’s odd about her having a vision of a scene w/ her brother and SiL and nephew? ANd a scene that might give her clues about herself, no less.

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Then the fourth book comes along (with most of the evidence). And the Valonqar was what hit me. 

"The Little Brother" (the person I was thinking about most of the time, Rhaenys little brother). It was in Valyrian for a reason and the 'the' wasn't a mistake.  

I had in my head read about Aegon as the little brother since book one, since he 'died' everyone only considered him as the little brother since he himself never grow up into his own person. 

Then minutes later Cersei goes on a random tangent about how beautiful Aurane Waters is but not as "beautiful" as Rhaegar, who was the most "Beautiful" person in the world. 

The use of what I thought was a gendered pronoun was odd, but then I remembered the words: "younger and more beautiful". 

Who was "younger and more beautiful" than Rhaegar but his son. 
 

But Maggy the Frog’s prophecy about the valonqar is about Cersei’s future. Do you mean Aegon/Jaqen will kill Cersei? Or what? I’m confused.

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Anyways I finished the fifth book hoping for answers, but all I got was YG who seemed a fake. 

However there are a few important things about him. He is too young to be Aegon VI (I don't see how Connington can't see this), the baby cloths Ilyrio gives to Duck are not mentioned by YG as he has no subconscious association to them.  

It did provide me with an explanation of how the child survive, Varys was ordered (probably by Rhaegar to have his baby switched). 
 

What do you base this on? Only thing I can remember is that initially Tyrion guesses YG’s age as fifteen or sixteen, but that isn’t enough to decide that he is too young to be Aegon. IMO. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Then I thought Rhaenys was switched too. The more I thought about that the more I thought about the Lemon door, and eventually I got to the point where I thought Daenerys is Rhaenys, and the three heads of the dragon are Jon, Dany, and Jaqen (all false names). 

But someone pointed out to me (as I had forgotten) that Rhaenys looked dornish with black hair and was far too old. I had thought the vision in the house of the undying where Dany was watching Rhaegar and Elia talk about their son was a memory, but again she was too young. 

And people knew Rhaenys was dead, so I started to doubt a little. 
 

Rhaenys is too old to be Dany, is that what you mean? If so, good. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Then I thought, how much do we know about Rhaegar, can it really be said he cared about his wife and children? He left them for Lyanna, he ignored them, and he was more obsessed over a prophecy than anything else. 

We don’t know any of that, though. It seems you’re making an awful lot of assumptions here. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Now we know he was convinced that Aegon was the prince of was promised, so he would make sure that the babies were switched so he'd survive the war. 

Ashara was Elia's lady in waiting who had a secret son she didn't want anyone to know about, so they switched their babies. It could have been a peasant boy, but Ashara explains one thing that bothered me. 

Let me see if I understood correctly... Are you saying Ashara had a secret son while still in KL as Elia’s LiW? 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

How could Ned's appearance at Starfall so perfectly coincide with her still born? It made no sense, but one thing Ned brought with him was news from Kingslanding. She knew her baby had died, but Ned didn't so she tried to kill herself (remember she was egging Brandon on to start a war so its partly her fault). 

How was Ashara “egging Brandon on to start a war”?

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

That solves that mystery, it solves who the Prince who was promised was, its solves the Valonqar, now I just needed to know who Aegon was (I was so convinced at this point Aegon was alive I was ready to look at any part of the text). 
 

No, I don’t think these explanations solve any of the mysteries imo. And I think part of the problem is that you got yourself so convinced that you started looking for clues to support your beliefs. And really, it should be the other way around... 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

What led me to him was Arya. Now the girl is important because she is described as having the wild stark look. Is there anyone else besides Lyanna described like that? Not Sansa, not Alys Karstark, not anyone. 

But Jeyne Poole was the dead give away, what did she call Arya? Horseface. 

Lyanna was the horse girl, and Ned even says Arya will become queen one day. 
 

Ned, Lyanna, Arya, and Jon have typical Stark features. Ned even tells Arya she looks like Lyanna. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Remember Arya was an important character in GRRM first draft, so her story is important. 

It seems ancillary to the main plot but there is only one person besides Syrio Forell she is tied to. 

Remember in the books her and Gendry, the Hounds, etc. were not friendly relationships, in fact she pushed most people around her away, and Yoren died too soon to mean anything to her. 
 

I very much disagree w/ all of this. Arya makes friends easily. Our takes on her relationships w/ other characters are completely different. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

But she did save one man, and she did tie his fate to his. 

Now I go back to my Rhaegar theory. The man has white hair and a chiseled face (Targaryen look). But what is with his red hair? Well Red (not crimson) is Martell/Dornish color, so half his head is for his father, the other half for his mother. 
 

That was the face he was wearing when Arya first met him. Since then he has changed into the alchemist, and then Pate. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Then the clues all came crashing down, the pledge underneath the heart tree, the fact that Gendry disliked him so much (Just like Robert and Rhaegar). 

And the show. 

There were lines between Jaqen and Arya they changed for seemingly no reason. But the most important one was under the heart tree. Jaqen is asking about which king Arya wants killed and she answers Jaqen. Why would they change that phrasing when they kept the scene besides that? 

And his confident demeanor falls. He smiles so much because he is hiding a secret in front of everyone, just like Hugor and Alleras do. 

He was beautiful so that fit the bill, and he had a duty to fulfill. And he wasn't a normal faceless man, he kills while looking Pate in the eyes, he takes a contract from Euron that isn't paid off by the rules of the house of black and white, and now he is playing sneak thief in the citadel. 

However someone pointed me towards the 'pate' backstory and it was a done deal after that. 

Read it in my other post, I don't see how it could mean anything else. 
 

Sorry, I can’t take anything from the abomination as evidence or confirmation for anything. 
I have no idea what you mean by “normal faceless man”. Their price is high, but not necessarily money. 

19 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Figuring out how it all happened was another thing, and I give credit to lot of people to helping figure out the sequence of events. 

But we come back to Arya, the girl of ice. 

Jon is both Ice and Fire. 

Jon and Dany being Ice and Fire would be a nice fantasy trope . Attractive well grown people being taught to lead are now the destined ones. 

But GRRM hates tropes, and Arya was the most important (female) character in the original draft.    

So now Arya is ice and Aegon is fire. 

Yeah, sorry, I just don’t see it. 

[butterweedstrover]

30 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

I appreciate the explanation, cheers. However, I do have a few issues and questions. For instance, In the quote above you say “Aegon goes by multiple names in the story”, and then you list several names. But it isn’t true that Aegon goes by those names in the story; that’s just an assumption of yours. And the fact is, there’s nothing in the text connecting Aegon to the alchemist, or Jaqen, or the valonqar, or Pate. Only with the PtwP and maybe AA there’s a connection, at least as far as Rhaegar’s beliefs go (at one point anyway).

 

Why? What’s odd about her having a vision of a scene w/ her brother and SiL and nephew? ANd a scene that might give her clues about herself, no less.

But Maggy the Frog’s prophecy about the valonqar is about Cersei’s future. Do you mean Aegon/Jaqen will kill Cersei? Or what? I’m confused.

What do you base this on? Only thing I can remember is that initially Tyrion guesses YG’s age as fifteen or sixteen, but that isn’t enough to decide that he is too young to be Aegon. IMO. 

Rhaenys is too old to be Dany, is that what you mean? If so, good. 

We don’t know any of that, though. It seems you’re making an awful lot of assumptions here. 

Let me see if I understood correctly... Are you saying Ashara had a secret son while still in KL as Elia’s LiW? 

How was Ashara “egging Brandon on to start a war”?

No, I don’t think these explanations solve any of the mysteries imo. And I think part of the problem is that you got yourself so convinced that you started looking for clues to support your beliefs. And really, it should be the other way around... 

Ned, Lyanna, Arya, and Jon have typical Stark features. Ned even tells Arya she looks like Lyanna. 

I very much disagree w/ all of this. Arya makes friends easily. Our takes on her relationships w/ other characters are completely different. 

That was the face he was wearing when Arya first met him. Since then he has changed into the alchemist, and then Pate. 

Sorry, I can’t take anything from the abomination as evidence or confirmation for anything. 
I have no idea what you mean by “normal faceless man”. Their price is high, but not necessarily money. 

Yeah, sorry, I just don’t see it. 

My other post goes into better depth, you can read it. But I will go through this the best I can. 

1. Aegon is the Valonqar, and 'Jaqen' is Aegon. 

If so that means 'Pate', the 'alchemist', and the rest are also him.  

2. Its odd because why would the visions reinforce an idea that is not true, unless it was of course 

3. Yes, Aegon will kill Cersei, he is the one younger and more beautiful, and he will cast her down. You can read more in my Valonqar thread if you want. 

4. fifteen is too young, he should be eighteen by now 

5. Well... If you read the waif's background story, you'll see she is shifting perspectives from Aegon to Ashara. 

One of the lines was about the father marrying another, which is what many suspect happened between Rhaegar and Ashara. 

They left for the tower of Joy near Harrenhall a year later, so if they pledged themselves to one another it would be under the heart tree in Harrenhall. More than that it fits the story of the tourney at Harrenhall. Arya (Lyanna) comes to Harrenhall with Gendry (Robert) and meets Aegon (Rhaegar). Gendry tells her to stay away from him, but in the end she chooses Aegon over Gendry befriending him and splitting from Gendry. Them comes the scene where Aegon is kneeling in front Arya under the heart tree when she is having a religious crisis, and that is where the line about the king was spoken (something taken out of the show). 

6. We know Ashara was pregnant, we just don't know when she gave birth. The offical story was when Ned arrived at Starfall but that is too convenient.  

But if she did have a baby out of wedlock, she would need to keep it a secret, and switching her baby with Aegon so Varys could keep him safe was a deal she'd be in the position to accept. When Ned arrives with news from KL, she knows that was her child with the face bashed in and attempts suicide suicide thematically fitting with the "still-born" story.    

7. Ashara was whispering into Brandon's ear about Rhaegar and how he wanted Lyanna. She didn't mean to start a war, but she feels partly responsible. It also fits with the 'poison' story the waif tells (whispering poison into one's ears).   

8. Arya is the only girl who has comparison's drawn between herself and Lyanna. And Jeyne's nickname of "horseface" is a dead give away. That's why I think she will play a similar role to Lyanna, but things will play out differently this time (Major Theme: History repeating itself) 

9. The show changes things but she has a combative relationship with Gendry, the Hound, Yoren, the Kindly Man, and everyone else since her father died. And there is a reason, she doesn't want to trust anyone. Even if there is underlying warmth in these relationships, this is what is presented to us. Jaqen however is the special exception, she saves him out of her own will, and trusts him enough to ask for his help, and even goes as far as traveling to Braavos to find him again.  

He also kisses her hair when they first come to their agreement (just something I thought I should note). 

10. I don't believe so. If you read my other post you'll see why I think that is Aegon's real face. Besides the descriptions fitting the Targaryen look (chiseled face with white hair) and his look/mannerism being described as "regal", we should also look at where we found him, in the black cells. He was being sent to the wall in chains, and needed Arya's help to escape. 

He wasn't planning on going to the wall because remember as he is leaving Harrenhall, he tells Arya he is returning to Braavos and he has a duty to fullfill. She is asked to come but she says she needs to find her family, they part ways. 

In my full explanation I look at Pate's background story (I suggest you read it) in AFFC and discuss how it is a metaphor for Aegon VI. 

He is taken in by Varys and Ilyrio, they send him to the house of black and white at thirteen (age requirement) in hopes that he will give up his claim to the throne. He goes but is still a dragon at heart, so eventual pursues Ilyrio back to KL where he was meeting Varys. He is rejected by them, and Rugen (read: Varys) puts him in the black cells hoping that taking the black would remove his claim to the throne (and make way for YG). He goes back to the kindly man but is rejected by him as well, then takes the contract for Euron's egg and is now looking to hatch it in the citadel to prove his lineage. 

He changes his face to the alchemist so Varys' spies don't find him (remember Harrenhall is a ways off from the narrow sea so he still has land to cover). Reading the description leads me to believe he was using a glamour to change his face, but it could just be a mask he brought with him. 

11. The FM, at least by how the kindly man speak, only take from whatever that person values the most. If they want a contract then they must give to them whatever thing is most important to them. That could be gold, their children, or their own lives. 

Euron didn't pay with the dragon binding horn, nor his Valyrian steel armor, but with a dragon egg he himself called "useless". 

Aegon took that contract while in the house of black and white because he needed an egg for his own purpose, which would explain how this alchemist first got a dragon egg and how Euron paid for his contract. 

(extra note: look at the resemblance of Pate wanting a 'dragon' (gold coin) and the alchemist wanting a dragon (real).  

[TheLastWolf]

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Aegon is the Valonqar, and 'Jaqen' is Aegon. 

If so that means 'Pate', the 'alchemist', and the rest are also him.  

 

6 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

extra note: look at the resemblance of Pate wanting a 'dragon' (gold coin) and the alchemist wanting a dragon (real)

Opinions differ 

 

[butterweedstrover]

1 hour ago, TheLastWolf said:

 

Opinions differ 

 

BTW I agree that Tysha is the Sailor's Wife but Gerion is good and dead. 

[TheLastWolf]

34 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

BTW I agree that Tysha is the Sailor's Wife

Henceforth I shall take your ideas into consideration only after triple checking them. Poor interpretation man, no offense. 

I had explicitly stated reasons why Tysha cannot be the Sailor's Wife and why it was Gerion's lover who was it. 

And you say you agree about Tysha being the Sailor's Wife. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? 

With whom I wonder? 

39 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

but Gerion is good and dead. 

A character with unknown fate (Gerion) is more suitable to be a character with mysterious origin and identity (Jaqen/Alchemist /Pate) than a Character who we know to be dead (Young Griff is the Pisswater prince. Real Aegon dead. Remember mummer's Cloth dragon?) 

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

When is it ever said that Ashara gave birth right as Ned got to Starfall? Also, the idea that Ned told her what happened in KL doesn't make sense. The KG at the ToJ knew what happened at the Trident and in KL, and that's much more remote than Starfall, so if they knew there's no reason to think people at Starfall hadn't been informed until Ned showed up.

Also, if Ashara was trying to hide a baby, she'd have to hide her pregnancy as well. Going through the pregnancy and then baby swapping with Varys makes no sense. And if Varys/Illyrio were swapping Aegon for YG, why would they keep him alive, or at the very least why would they raise him at the mansion? And why send him to the house of black and white? You say it's to "force him to give up his claim" why would they even tell him who he was in the first place? And how does that make sense given that YG seems to legitimately believe he is Aegon VI? If they didn't want to have him killed they could have made arrangements when he was a baby to have him live a life of obscurity as some random commoner anywhere in Essos. Sending him to the house of black and white make no sense under any circumstances. 

There is nothing in the books about Ashara telling Brandon anything.

The fundamental problem with your theory is that you start with a far-fetched conclusion and then work backwards to find anything that could theoretically fit your assumption (often based on more assumptions). But that's all it is, an assumption. If you remove it, everything falls apart because there's little to no evidence for the leaps you make and much more likely explanations for the text that is cited. 

[butterweedstrover]

37 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Henceforth I shall take your ideas into consideration only after triple checking them. Poor interpretation man, no offense. 

I had explicitly stated reasons why Tysha cannot be the Sailor's Wife and why it was Gerion's lover who was it. 

And you say you agree about Tysha being the Sailor's Wife. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯? 

With whom I wonder? 

A character with unknown fate (Gerion) is more suitable to be a character with mysterious origin and identity (Jaqen/Alchemist /Pate) than a Character who we know to be dead (Young Griff is the Pisswater prince. Real Aegon dead. Remember mummer's Cloth dragon?) 

Sorry, my fault. I read you first post about Gerion and thought that was alll. 

[butterweedstrover]

24 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

When is it ever said that Ashara gave birth right as Ned got to Starfall? Also, the idea that Ned told her what happened in KL doesn't make sense. The KG at the ToJ knew what happened at the Trident and in KL, and that's much more remote than Starfall, so if they knew there's no reason to think people at Starfall hadn't been informed until Ned showed up.

Also, if Ashara was trying to hide a baby, she'd have to hide her pregnancy as well. Going through the pregnancy and then baby swapping with Varys makes no sense. And if Varys/Illyrio were swapping Aegon for YG, why would they keep him alive, or at the very least why would they raise him at the mansion? And why send him to the house of black and white? You say it's to "force him to give up his claim" why would they even tell him who he was in the first place? And how does that make sense given that YG seems to legitimately believe he is Aegon VI? If they didn't want to have him killed they could have made arrangements when he was a baby to have him live a life of obscurity as some random commoner anywhere in Essos. Sending him to the house of black and white make no sense under any circumstances. 

There is nothing in the books about Ashara telling Brandon anything.

The fundamental problem with your theory is that you start with a far-fetched conclusion and then work backwards to find anything that could theoretically fit your assumption (often based on more assumptions). But that's all it is, an assumption. If you remove it, everything falls apart because there's little to no evidence for the leaps you make and much more likely explanations for the text that is cited. 

Here is the wiki:  

 

Eddard traveled to Starfall to return Arthur's greatsword Dawn to House Dayne.^[4] Some time afterwards, Ashara jumped from the top of the Palestone Sword, one of the towers of Starfall, into the sea.^[6] Several characters have cited possible reasons for Ashara's decision to commit suicide: a broken heart,^[6] because of her stillborn daughter,^[5] because of a stolen child,^[7] for the "man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal",^[5] or due to grief over Arthur's death.^[6] Her body was never found.^[8] 

Either way she jumped after he brought back dawn (the sword). 

Note the last part, her body was never found. 

Ashara was was Elia's lady in waiting before the war started. If Rhaegar wanted Aegon stowed away, they'd need a replacement (Like Jon did with Gilly and Dalla's babies) 

Varys gave the baby to Ilyrio, and then the war started. That is why Ilyrio had the box filled with baby Aegon's cloths. 

Remeber YG was born after Aegon had lived in the mansion for some two years. 

Varys and Illyrio wanted their child on the throne, but we can't know for sure if they had been planning this before YG was born or if they were improvising. 

By the time Aegon is three YG now lives in the mansion with him, being raised as Aegon VI. 

The real Aegon may have some inkling of a memory, but we can assume he wasn't told who he was by Ilyrio or Varys.  

He stays for ten more years until being sent to the house of black and white. Being the prince of was promised / Azor Ahai he must of had some visions about his destiny/true identity. 

Varys/Ilyrio sent him there to lose his identity so he could never resurface as a threat. If he was given to a random commoner then his hair and looks would give him away as he grew older, and someone may want to use him to take the throne (which would scuttle their plans with YG). So they kept him safe inside the mansion (remember in Tyrion's chapters where he said the walls blocked the view from the rest of the city), and then gave him to the house of black and white as a permanent solution (changing faces and becoming no one was the best way to hide his identity). 

But they didn't know about the waif, or that Aegon would have visions of his destiny (the prince of was promised).

But Ashara is the waif, so she could have helped him along the way in figuring out who he was. Once he did he came after Ilyrio and followed him to KL to ask for the dragon eggs (he'd seen them). Varys/Rugen uses his trust and has him locked up in the black cells (we don't know how desperate this plan is, or how well thought out, but remember Ilyrio and Varys are prone to improvising on their plans). Going up to the wall and taking the black was the next best option for removing him from the picture. Varys also tells Yoren to keep him in chains because he knows he is dangerous (doesn't want him to escape). 

During his time in the house of black and white YG is sent off with Jon Connington, and the mansion is clear for Dany and Viserys to move in.   

The Brandon and Ashara thing I think comes from WOASOIAF.

Pate's background is the most convincing peace of evidence (I know I'm a broken record but just read it):  

"He had been five years at the Citadel, arriving when he was no more than three-and-ten, yet his neck remained as pink as it had been on the day [1] he first arrived from the westerlands. Twice had he believed himself ready. The first time he had gone before Archmaester Vaellyn [2] to demonstrate his knowledge of the heavens. Instead he learned how Vinegar Vaellyn [3] had earned that name. It took Pate two years to summon up the courage to try again. This time he submitted himself to kindly old Archmaester Ebrose, renowned for his soft voice and gentle hands [4], but Ebrose’s sighs [5] had somehow proved just as painful as Vaellyn’s barbs." - A Feast for Crows 

Five plus thirteen is eighteen which is how old Aegon VI should be by book 4. Thirteen is the age new recruits are accepted into the house of black and white.  

First Bold: Aegon arrived but he was still a dragon at heart (white hair, chiseled face, etc.). He could not change into his new identity because of his old identity  

Second Bold: Aegon is rejected twice as well. First he comes up to Ilyrio and Varys to ask for the eggs and support for his place as king. They reject him. Look at the archmaester's name, Vaellyn. 

Va is for Varys and lly is for Ilyrio. 

Third Bold: Aegon thought Ilyrio and Varys were his allies/friends, and they betray him. Betrayal tastes bitter, like Vinegar. 

Fourth Bold: Ebrose is described as "kindly old"  with a "soft voice" just like the kindly man. Aegon returns to him asking for help and he is rejected again.  

Fifth Bold: His rejection was signified by sighs. When does the Kindly man sigh towards Arya? When she remembers her true identity, same as Aegon did. 

I love this theory because it explains the Valonqar prophecy, the prince who was promised, what the alchemist is doing in the citadel, why Jaqen was in the black cells, the connection between Arya and Lyanna, the darkness the Ghost of High Heart saw in Arya, and last but not least the story of A song of ice and fire (Arya is ice, Aegon is fire /// history is repeating itself). 

I don't see the contradictions you do, but I am unsure why Varys does not go so far as to kill Aegon. Maybe he was sworn to protect him, maybe Varys is a blackfyre so he sees killing Aegon as kin slaying and all kin slayers are cursed. 

We know smart people in this world are superstitious. Baelish for all his plotting and planning won't take his seat in Harrenhall because he thinks its cursed and would rather not test his luck.  

Or maybe Varys has other plans for him later (though I doubt that). 

PS. I didn't know the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy already had word of what happened in Kingslanding by the time Eddard arrived. It makes no matter, we can say Eddard saw the bodies so he shared the gruesome details with Ashara, or Ashara knew and was only looking for confirmation from Ned.     

 

 

  

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

3 minutes ago, butterweedstrover said:

Here is the wiki:  

 

Eddard traveled to Starfall to return Arthur's greatsword Dawn to House Dayne.^[4] Some time afterwards, Ashara jumped from the top of the Palestone Sword, one of the towers of Starfall, into the sea.^[6] Several characters have cited possible reasons for Ashara's decision to commit suicide: a broken heart,^[6] because of her stillborn daughter,^[5] because of a stolen child,^[7] for the "man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal",^[5] or due to grief over Arthur's death.^[6] Her body was never found.^[8] 

 

It doesn't say her daughter was stillborn right before Ned showed up. Your alternate explanations based on finding out the KG already knew are pretty weak. I'm sure Ned Stark is the type of guy to share gruesome details about dead children with a highborn lady, motivating her to commit suicide. There's nothing to connect Ashara to the "pisswater prince" besides assumptions that have no basis in the text. There's no evidence the waif is Ashara either.

There is nothing in any canon text about Ashara Dayne egging Brandon on. The only time they are known to have been in the same place was at Harrenhal.

Aegon's looks would not give him away in Essos. Valyrian looks are not particularly rare in the Free Cities, the average whore in Lys has silver hair and purple eyes. Nobody is going to assume a kid with similar features must be the long lost son of Rhaegar Targaryen, who everyone believes to be dead anyways. He was also an infant during the war, so he'd have no memory. They could have raised him (or had him raised) to be whoever they wanted him to be, there's zero reason to send him to the House of Black and White. Given the things Varys and Illyrio are known or implied to do with their "little birds" I don't think they'd be above having him killed off either. 

This was from an earlier post, but I don't understand your argument that Aegon must be TPTWP because Rhaegar said he was, and we wouldn't see the vision if it wasn't true? What? A huge part of the story is Martin exploring how characters react to prophecy, often misinterpreting it, causing it to come true by taking actions intended to prevent it, often based on misinterpretations, etc. Rhaegar wrongly assuming his firstborn son must be TWTWP is par for the course. 

I honestly just do not get how you think the Pate passage proves anything. If you assume Pate is Aegon and that Aegon went to the House of Black and White at 13 and all this other stuff then you ok, maybe you can draw some parallels. But there is absolutely no basis for any of those assumptions, so it's just baseless speculation. And I don't even get what you're trying to argue there. You think Aegon is Jaqen/alchemist. Yet you also seem to think he was Pate before Pate was killed by the alchemist and had his face taken? 

[butterweedstrover]

48 minutes ago, ATaleofSalt&Onions said:

It doesn't say her daughter was stillborn right before Ned showed up. Your alternate explanations based on finding out the KG already knew are pretty weak. I'm sure Ned Stark is the type of guy to share gruesome details about dead children with a highborn lady, motivating her to commit suicide. There's nothing to connect Ashara to the "pisswater prince" besides assumptions that have no basis in the text. There's no evidence the waif is Ashara either.

There is nothing in any canon text about Ashara Dayne egging Brandon on. The only time they are known to have been in the same place was at Harrenhal.

Aegon's looks would not give him away in Essos. Valyrian looks are not particularly rare in the Free Cities, the average whore in Lys has silver hair and purple eyes. Nobody is going to assume a kid with similar features must be the long lost son of Rhaegar Targaryen, who everyone believes to be dead anyways. He was also an infant during the war, so he'd have no memory. They could have raised him (or had him raised) to be whoever they wanted him to be, there's zero reason to send him to the House of Black and White. Given the things Varys and Illyrio are known or implied to do with their "little birds" I don't think they'd be above having him killed off either. 

This was from an earlier post, but I don't understand your argument that Aegon must be TPTWP because Rhaegar said he was, and we wouldn't see the vision if it wasn't true? What? A huge part of the story is Martin exploring how characters react to prophecy, often misinterpreting it, causing it to come true by taking actions intended to prevent it, often based on misinterpretations, etc. Rhaegar wrongly assuming his firstborn son must be TWTWP is par for the course. 

I honestly just do not get how you think the Pate passage proves anything. If you assume Pate is Aegon and that Aegon went to the House of Black and White at 13 and all this other stuff then you ok, maybe you can draw some parallels. But there is absolutely no basis for any of those assumptions, so it's just baseless speculation. And I don't even get what you're trying to argue there. You think Aegon is Jaqen/alchemist. Yet you also seem to think he was Pate before Pate was killed by the alchemist and had his face taken? 

1, I think of Ilyrio and Varys wanted Aegon out of the way the house of black and white would be the best place to send him, not some random noble's house. They just didn't know about the waif. 

2. No I'm not saying the real Pate is Aegon, I'm saying GRRM wrote that background as a nod and a wink to Aegon's real backstory (a metaphor if you will).

[sweetsunray]

On 8/26/2020 at 2:41 AM, Nevets said:

Bran is not going to skinchange Theon.  He has no idea that he has even made contact at all.  It's only a few days later so I doubt he has time to learn, especially from hundreds of miles away.  Any contact for now is going to be glitchy and uncertain.

He doesn't? What's your evidence that Bran doesn't know he made contact? A few days later than what? Since Bran's last chapter? And how do you know how many days there are between Bran III and Theon's chapter of realizing he's Theon? How do you know how many days there are between then and Theon being a captive of Stannis? Yes, there is a timeline project, but I'd say it's way more than "just a few days later", since we only get Theon chapters at WF after (!!!) Bran III, and there are plenty of days (about a moon) between the wedding at WF and Theon escaping with Jeyne. Bran's chapter itself spans several moons. So, roughly, Bran has had a moon of greenseeing. So, by the time we get to the Battle of the Ice Lakes, Bran has been skinchanging regularly Hodor to walk around in the cave and walk behind Meera for about 4 moons. And skinchanging Hodor is something he has done since aSoS. 

Overall, both with Bran and Arya you seem to think an apprenticeship or having a student arc suddenly turns them into dumb characters who can't think or see for themselves anymore. You rejected the proposal of Arya having accomplished a mission for the HoBaW in Mercy, arguing that they wouldn't let Arya improvise as an apprentice, and yet with the insurance man (her first "mission") she was allowed to improvize her own method of getting to him. Nobody gave her an algorithm on how to kill him, just as nobody gave her an algorithm on how "to get the sealord and envoy" into trouble. It ignores prior learning evidence, ignores how George writes Arya and Bran prior learning and how they learned... yes, with some guidance, and a lot of independent practice. Now you seem to argue that a boy becomes so dumb he doesn't even know that Theon heard him whisper his name, doesn't know he touched his cheek with the branch of the tree, doesn't hear how Theon reacts and responds to each, despite the fact that Bran's still up to his contact tricks with Theon as a raven. Guess that in your mind, Bran has become such an imbecile he doesn't realize he's talking as a raven, and that Theon is deaf to a raven's speech. Being an apprentice makes him so so dumb suddenly that he doesn't know how to try and skinchange a human being, despite the fact he's been doing for a year now.

This "being a pupil/apprentice/student makes you dumber than you were before until after a long time of being dumb you suddenly outsmart your teacher" is a very poor interpretation and expectation of an arc. It's exactly what the abomination did. It's not a mistake that GRRM tends to make though, and certainly not with (magically) gifted child characters.

[ATaleofSalt&Onions]

6 hours ago, butterweedstrover said:

1, I think of Ilyrio and Varys wanted Aegon out of the way the house of black and white would be the best place to send him, not some random noble's house. They just didn't know about the waif. 

2. No I'm not saying the real Pate is Aegon, I'm saying GRRM wrote that background as a nod and a wink to Aegon's real backstory (a metaphor if you will).

1. Why? It's not like the House of Black and White is like the Night's Watch or even the Citadel where it's a common destination for young men to be sent off to if they don't have better prospects in life. It's a semi-secretive Braavosi cult of assassins. Who said anything about a random noble's house? With all the connections Varys has he could easily have him raised in a life of obscurity as a commoner in Lys where no one would ever know who he was and his looks wouldn't stand out at all. There's a million options better than sending him to a cult of assassins and completely losing control over him. And again, there is absolutely zero evidence that Ashara Dayne is the waif.

2. That is a massive stretch. There is nothing the text establishing Aegon's backstory to be anything similar to that. If you have to construe an elaborate backstory that will be revealed in the last book or two and then in hindsight you could draw parallels to the backstory of another character, then you do not have very strong evidence for a theory, to put it mildly, and yet you're convinced it's a smoking gun.