Did Argillac really kill the envoy?

[Alyn Oakenfist]

6 hours ago, frenin said:

since you can clearly trace all of our plagues from that war, from Fernando VII and the Carlists wars to Franco and the civil war etc.

I mean now you put it this way, yeah I guess you do, seeing as the war completely messed up your country both in terms of damage and the total destruction of the government and administration, as well as directly leading to Spain losing whatever influence or power it still held on the world stage.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

But it's an evidence that people will fight to the last man for their, perceived,freedom.

Living in a post communism country I can attest to that. If only we would have the job well and purged all the high ranking communists (I'm not saying killed just removing them from politics) not just the top tier ones. We're only now starting to finally get rid of them.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

No, when you mobilze the entire population, them dying is on the hands of the invasor. 

Again my WW1 analogy, take the french mass charging at the german trenches. They did it to defend their country sure, they were fighting against a foreign invader, and they were horrifically massacred. But the fault isn't with the germans on the other side, it's with the brilliant french high command, that thought charging right ahead into machine gun fire was a brilliant plan.

6 hours ago, frenin said:

The best for his people and for him, Aegon is not the kind of man that gives second chances.

Lorren Lannister would like a word with you. Aegon allowed defeated foes to bend the knee, as long as they still could after being dragon-ed. Which was their folly. Torrhen didn't do it to save himself. He could have tried his hand anyway, and bent the knee after the inevitbale defeat, He did it to save his own men from a clear defeat, and in that regard he's probably the best Stark there ever was, the only was to put his peoples first (I'm looking at you Robb and Ned).

7 hours ago, frenin said:

Nationalism tend to be, as stupid as unfair imperialism is.

I'm gonna disagree here, imperialism isn't stupid. It's unfair, and fairly evil though in some cases it does have some weird advantages (mainly incredible trade and exchange of ideas, hell the Renaissance only happened because of imperialism, both Mongol one and the Crusades, despite of how awful the two were). Imperialism is a usually a bad thing (not always, looking at you isolationist Japan) but it's not stupid. It's a win lose kind of thing. The stuff the Dornish did was a lose-lose, with both sides coming out way worse then what would have happened had the Dornish just bent the knee.

[frenin]

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Again my WW1 analogy, take the french mass charging at the german trenches. They did it to defend their country sure, they were fighting against a foreign invader, and they were horrifically massacred. But the fault isn't with the germans on the other side, it's with the brilliant french high command, that thought charging right ahead into machine gun fire was a brilliant plan.

I hear you i don't share it, The yellow toad did not put her people as shield, Aegon specifically targetted them out of, entitlement and frustration. A better analogy would be the total war, when both parties directly targetted the civilians and infrastructure to force a surrender during WW2, Aegon even tried to use his genocide to try and turn them against the Martells.

Aegon viewed that an invasion was a no no and decided to cripple Dorne into submission, that's not Meria's fault.

 

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

Lorren Lannister would like a word with you. Aegon allowed defeated foes to bend the knee, as long as they still could after being dragon-ed. Which was their folly. Torrhen didn't do it to save himself. He could have tried his hand anyway, and bent the knee after the inevitbale defeat, He did it to save his own men from a clear defeat, and in that regard he's probably the best Stark there ever was, the only was to put his peoples first (I'm looking at you Robb and Ned).

Hmm I did forget about him. But no, I don't really think Torrhen did it only for his people, The Starks could've died out as the Gardeners. 

Btw, Ned did look for his people. Robb... Not so much.

 

 

5 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm gonna disagree here, imperialism isn't stupid. It's unfair, and fairly evil though in some cases it does have some weird advantages (mainly incredible trade and exchange of ideas, hell the Renaissance only happened because of imperialism, both Mongol one and the Crusades, despite of how awful the two were). Imperialism is a usually a bad thing (not always, looking at you isolationist Japan) but it's not stupid. It's a win lose kind of thing. The stuff the Dornish did was a lose-lose, with both sides coming out way worse then what would have happened had the Dornish just bent the knee.

Depends who you ask. Imperialism has logic behind it, just as fighting till the last man.

Entitlement and greed are not the best reasons to wage a war, even when those are usually the only reasons. Even isolated Japan was fucked hard and then tried to do the same with everyone in turn...

Both sides would've not come way worse if Aegon wasn't an entitled megalomaniac and accepted Dorne's offer of friendship the first time. That you blame the Dornish for being invaded instead of the invader and unprovoked, uninvited aggresor is still baffling to me.

[Alyn Oakenfist]

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Entitlement and greed are not the best reasons to wage a war, even when those are usually the only reasons.

Sad but true.

22 minutes ago, frenin said:

Even isolated Japan was fucked hard and then tried to do the same with everyone in turn...

I'm gonna disagree with you on the fucked hard thing. They did the miraculous Meiji Restoration exactly for the purpose of not getting fucked hard. They did try to screw everybody else though.

23 minutes ago, frenin said:

Both sides would've not come way worse if Aegon wasn't an entitled megalomaniac and accepted Dorne's offer of friendship the first time.

That would have been really stupid though, given his plans. He could have left Dorne alone sure but that would go against the entirety of the invasion.

24 minutes ago, frenin said:

That you blame the Dornish for being invaded instead of the invader and unprovoked, uninvited aggresor is still baffling to me.

You misunderstand me. Sure Aegon is very much guilty of being an invader, but the Martells are also guilty. Put it this way, they had the options: 1 Bend the knee and yes lose independence but not much else with live going on as normal if not better seeing as being part of Westeros would grant them far better trade infrastructure and security or 2. Fight all out Fabian war resulting in getting independence, but on the other side lose countless of your subjects and have your country completely obliterated. Put it this way if you knew you were in danger from the fire ravaging your neighborhood and you decide to go and fight it with your bare hands, sure the fire is what killed you, but you are to blame for being stupid resulting in your death. Aegon's invasion didn't directly result into the bloodbath we got, but the Martell decision of fighting it out did.

[James Steller]

33 minutes ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

 

You misunderstand me. Sure Aegon is very much guilty of being an invader, but the Martells are also guilty. Put it this way, they had the options: 1 Bend the knee and yes lose independence but not much else with live going on as normal if not better seeing as being part of Westeros would grant them far better trade infrastructure and security or 2. Fight all out Fabian war resulting in getting independence, but on the other side lose countless of your subjects and have your country completely obliterated. Put it this way if you knew you were in danger from the fire ravaging your neighborhood and you decide to go and fight it with your bare hands, sure the fire is what killed you, but you are to blame for being stupid resulting in your death. Aegon's invasion didn't directly result into the bloodbath we got, but the Martell decision of fighting it out did.

But Floki and frenin are both right when they point out that the Dornish were reacting to Aegon’s unprovoked attack. Your fire analogy doesn’t work. It’s more like if a group of people break into your home and insist that you need to feed them from now on or else they will kill your wife and children. Maybe you don’t try to grab the gun out of their hands, but I don’t think you’d go a day without planning some way to get them out of your home. And I wouldn’t be surprised if your wife and kids didn’t join in your plans somehow if things got really desperate. Because what’s to stop these men from treating you and your family however they want? Do you trust them to be benevolent, even after they broke into your home and are threatening you?

[Wall Flower]

19 hours ago, frenin said:

It was kinda of genocide tho.

 

Hmm no, it's not their fault they decide to not be invaded, that's not how it works, Aegon was the one bringing fire and blood to them. Aegon was the one burning fields and castles. Honestly, this is the weirdest take I've seen honestly.

I can't feel sorry for Harren the Black as he was a megalomaniac conquerer from the Iron Islands who enslaved and killed thousands of Riverlanders during the building of his vanity project, which is why Riverland lords like the Tullys went over to Aegon. The Riverlands was definitely better off under Aegon.

Agree that the Dornish had every reason to resist the Targaryens and judging by Daeron 1's attempt, there seems to have been popular support in Dorne for resisting conquest.

Of course, the First Men and the Andals were both perpetrators of even bloodier conquests themselves, so the Targaryens are not unique in their ambitions.

[James Steller]

13 minutes ago, Wall Flower said:

Of course, the First Men and the Andals were both perpetrators of even bloodier conquests themselves, so the Targaryens are not unique in their ambitions.

The one constant is their humanity. History is full of people going from being the conquerors to being the conquered, and feeling justified in both positions. 

[frenin]

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

I'm gonna disagree with you on the fucked hard thing. They did the miraculous Meiji Restoration exactly for the purpose of not getting fucked hard. They did try to screw everybody else though.

They were forced to not isolate themselves and to trade with the western powers and they took the wrong lessons from that.

 

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

That would have been really stupid though, given his plans. He could have left Dorne alone sure but that would go against the entirety of the invasion.

And from Dornish perspective, giving up their independency would be very stupid and against their nature. Why Aegon is more justified than the Dornish??

2 hours ago, Alyn Oakenfist said:

You misunderstand me. Sure Aegon is very much guilty of being an invader, but the Martells are also guilty. Put it this way, they had the options: 1 Bend the knee and yes lose independence but not much else with live going on as normal if not better seeing as being part of Westeros would grant them far better trade infrastructure and security or 2. Fight all out Fabian war resulting in getting independence, but on the other side lose countless of your subjects and have your country completely obliterated. Put it this way if you knew you were in danger from the fire ravaging your neighborhood and you decide to go and fight it with your bare hands, sure the fire is what killed you, but you are to blame for being stupid resulting in your death. Aegon's invasion didn't directly result into the bloodbath we got, but the Martell decision of fighting it out did.

I didn't misunderstand you, but you're putting more blame into the Dornish feet for being slaughtered than in Aegon's for slaughtering them, which is simply ludicrous to me.

The Dornish don't want to lose their independence, from that point, anyone else is moot, since they simply won't allow that, they don't care about Aegon, they don't care what  alledged goodness he is bringing, they simply don't want it, Aegon can commerce with them easily as neighbours, as he did once the war ended,  they don't want their security. Aegon is aminvader and they are rightfully resisting him, call them idiots, call them ignorants but you can't say they are at fault for being masaccred.

No, your analogy is again way off, as @Floki of the Ironborn said, if one superpower decided because of yes to invade a country, are those people to blame and deserved the moniker of stupid because they simply don't want that superpower in their homes??

 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

I can't feel sorry for Harren the Black as he was a megalomaniac conquerer from the Iron Islands who enslaved and killed thousands of Riverlanders during the building of his vanity project, which is why Riverland lords like the Tullys went over to Aegon. The Riverlands was definitely better off under Aegon.

Well, i wouldn't if Harrenand his mates were the only ones that died there, but they weren't. Aegon killed every person that was in Harrenhall and they were a lot of people that just happened to serve that fucker.

 

1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Of course, the First Men and the Andals were both perpetrators of even bloodier conquests themselves, so the Targaryens are not unique in their ambitions.

Ofc not, entitlement is a trait in humans in general, the Rhoynish that resisted Aegon were the ones that submitted Dorne to their rule.