Yrael Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Some of you are sick sons & daughters of goats and I hope the Others take you! What? You're not man enough to brave the winter? Spill it out: what's your dirty secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CelticKevin Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 What? You're not man enough to brave the winter? Spill it out: what's your dirty secret? I am deeply proud of my brazen hypocrisy! And I admit it, it was I who slew Dareon and threw him into the canals! has anyone seen where his boots are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RhaegarTargaryen Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 When Bran got thrown out of the window, i got fascinated with the book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Tyrion did a lot as Hand. Unfortunaly most of his work was lost when he became injured (mainly because someone/Cersei tried to kill him) and he took weeks to get up. By then, his father had took over and all of Tyrion´s work had became useless. Tyrion did pretty well with the military strategy. That's not my point. Military strategy really isn't the job of the hand anyway - the job of the hand is the make a kingdom run smoothly, which Tyrion patently failed at. Tyrion failed completely in making the kingdom at large respect the current rulers, something much more important than just keeping Cersei's power grab intact. To this end, Tyrion should have reached out to anyone generally respected by the people (any of the former kingsguard, maesters, and high septons would all have been good starts - as much as I loathe Pycelle it was beyond stupid for Tyrion to abuse him as he did) and used them to communicate a hopeful dream for the future of Westeros. Instead, he made himself even more monstrous and alien than he already was by surrounding himself with his barbarians and whores, and using the brute force of the goldcloaks to do all his dirty chores. And then, he wondered why all the people hated him!?! Tyrion COULD also have used his nearly unlimited power as the hand to try to make an alliance with at least someone. He didn't even try - unwilling to make any sort of redress to the grievances his family had caused just about everyone. It might have pissed of Tywin and Cersei, but in the end he would be remembered as peacemaker by history. The part that really got me though, was that Tyrion showed none of his characteristic (from aGoT) subtlety and cunning in his plans (the sort Littlefinger and Varys display time after time). His plans were all brutal and obvious. He also showed no mercy and no kindness of the sort he showed Jon and Bran in aGoT. In short, Tyrion was a completely changed character, overnight. That is how aCoK ruined Tyrion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyDogIsNamedDanerys Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Either way, Joffrey was dead, so the only result of lying about it to Jaime was that Tyrion directed the blame on him and innocented Sansa in the eye of the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. How can this be considred betrayal of Jaime when Tyrion is the only one to suffer from it? Unless you mean to say that telling the truth about Cercei is the betrayal? I don't care about Jeoffry, and neither does Jaime ultimately. What I'm referring to is how, after Jaime saves Tyrion's life by freeing him from his cell the night before his execution, and then apologizes for what had happened to Tysha (Jaime, by the way had never thought Tywin was evil enough to kidnap and gang rape the girl - I expect Jaime was probably horrified by the entire thing), Tyrion repays Jaime by killing their father. I dont' hate him for killing Tywin, I hate that he did it in such a completely dirty, backhanded way. Nothing subtle or clever about it. At that point, I realized Tyrion was unrecoverably twisted and probably more evil than Tywin (though obviously Tyrion is a tragic by-product of Tywin's unfounded hatred and cruelty so really it's all the same). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miryana Storm Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 There is another series you might enjoy, it's called the Berenstain Bears... I expected a reply of that kind. But burying one's head in the sand and pretending terrible things don't exist isn't going to work, whether fiction or real life is being discussed. I know how sadly common some crimes are, but that doesn't stop me from feeling sympathy for the victims; it just makes me admire those who still try to help others even more and wish I could do something as well. As an ASOIAF example, I think very highly of Davos, more so than I would if ASOIAF was the Wheel of Time or some other "tame" fantasy series. Even though Westeros is full of people who are rewarded for selfish ambition and ignoring justice, Davos is going to do what he thinks is right (saving Edric) and he's going to take responsibility for it even though it might be expected to cost him his life, Stannis being who he is. Well, of the characters I mentioned, Dany has the "163" thing, along with her systematic murder of every slaver in that city (did the slavers deserve it? Perhaps, but it's still murder). Tyrion had a singer murdered, turned into stew, and never gave the matter a second thought afterwards. Arya has turned into a remorseless psychopath filled with a sense of vigilante justice, where he appoints herself judge, jury, and executioner. Robb's pride started a war that killed thousands, and do you honestly think that the inhabitants of the Riverlands cared if the soldiers ravaging their land were "lions" or "wolves"? Attrocities, while not committed by Robb, were committed in Robb's name. I've already said that I don't like Tyrion and don't want him to have a happy ending (he showed that he is indeed Tywin's son). I've resigned myself to Arya being lost (but at least she hasn't started a war or tortured people for fun/profit). Dany is a teenager who is at least attempting to make a conscious effort to be a just ruler to Meereen now and she has her moments of mercy (stopping the Dothraki rapes). It's inevitable that people will suffer when there's a war whether lions or wolves are the ones attacking, but Tywin made exceptional suffering a certainty by sending Gregor and the Mummers, while Robb would not approve of such. I don't think one should sit home and let people abuse the realm's laws and the lands of your family because it's impossible to control all your soldiers. One should just try to make as clear as possible that some things will not be tolerated and will be punished and then deal with those injustices of your own forces that you are made aware of (like Karstark killing the hostages). The war was started because of Lannister incest/treason and Tywin's pride that made him respond in a bloody vengeful way that guaranteed the destruction of the Riverlands. If Cersei's children had been trueborn Ned would have been loyal to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mdw9119 Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I have to confess that I really don't understand the hate for old Walder Frey. Honestly. The man is my freaking role model. The man has had eight wives, thirty or so children through marriage,not to mention too many bastards to name. Some of you may think this isn't impressive, but I know the guy never had to dip into the treasury to pay child support or alimony. I'm sure he's never been without some hot young thing to warm his bed. Can you relly blame the guy for coming out on top by whatever means, while kings, rebels, and smallfolk alike are dropping like flies. He is the epitome of self- preservation. The man is a survivor, plain and simple. And incidently, for everyone who wants to see him get what he deserves, he will. Walder Frey will go out on top.....of an 18 year old tavern wench as his heart burst from a lethal mix of fatigue, sex, and viagra. What a champ. My hero, heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Still not king Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I know how sadly common some crimes are, but that doesn't stop me from feeling sympathy for the victims; it just makes me admire those who still try to help others even more I understand and sympathise. But aren't all the characters vicims in some way or another? Tyrion is a victim of childhood abuse and neglect and has had to be screwd in order to make it, The Hound grew up being constantly afraid for his life and to survive he became a cold killer who does everything he can to push others away. Even Tywin is a result of the society he grew up in; be strong or perish. The connection between Cersei and Jaime runs deep; it's *wrong* yeah, but emotions aren't logical. The human mind is a complex thing and there's always reasons for why people became who they are - it's those reasons that makes them interesting to us readers. I may not like Tywin as a person, but I can't deny that I have a lot of respect for him and what he's accomplished. Know what I mean? Another confession: I feel very sorry for Sweetrobin. He's just a kid, and if he's annoying and clingy it's because he was made that way by his deranged mother. What the boy needs is a friggin' psychologist, not a trip out the moon door. He's lost everything, his mother, his father, and soon he'll probably lose his life, yet I see no sympathy for him from the readers. If anyone's a victim it's poor little Robert, no matter how unpleasant his personality might be. It's easier to have sympathy for Davos or Robb than for Sweetrobin and the Hound, and that's perfectly understandable. We all see the characters through our own filters, our own psychology. I don't admire Gregor's personality but he triggers something in me (and I feel a freak for admitting this on a public messageboard ). Davos is probably the only truly good person in this series, yet I can identify more with the Hound. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all right... I had a point when I started writing this but I'm afraid it got lost somewhere on the way. Oh well. Peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wisp Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I understand and sympathise. But aren't all the characters vicims in some way or another? Absolutely. Many of the characters have done terrible things--but then, it's a terrible world that they live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HellaGood Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 On some level, I can understand and feel sorry for Cersei. I think she's one of the best characters in the series and her chapters were my favourites in AFfC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liver and Onions Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 That's a good point about Robert Arryn. He's an annoying kid, so many of us desire to see him thrown out the Moon Door (and I admit, I'm one of them), but he's still just a kid. Bran was thrown from a high place, too. (Of course, Bran is no Sweetrobin, but there you go.) One of the things I love about this series is how the seemingly villainous characters can have understandable motivations behind their actions, and the seemingly heroic ones have to get their hands dirty, whether they like it or not. Kevan's defense of Tywin in the end of ASOS is a good example of the former. And Dany provides many examples of the latter. No one gets a free pass. And then there's Arya. I like her not because she's turning into a ruthless person, but because I feel the transition is handled well. Killing Dareon felt right to me, not because the murder was justified, but because it seemed like something Arya would do. She knew he was a deserter from the Night's Watch, and she offed him because that's what she decided her father would have done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nihil Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I like Roose Bolton. Always have. Something about the way his voice was described. When I imagine his voice I hear Bao-Dur from Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II, who had pretty much the sexiest video game voice ever. Wow, several layers of shame being brought to light in this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blah Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 hehe where do I start..not a good sign I suppose - I dig Cersei. I want her to step up and do something cool..or at least useful - I also dig the Twins..Twincest and all. If any of the screwed up relationships should stay intact I think it's the twins. - It follows obviously that I think Jaime/Brienne is a horrible idea.. - I was happy Sam finally got lucky. - Jaime throwing Bran out the window didn't have much of an effect on me..I guess maybe cause he survived - Was Thrilled when Robb died! That tool getting married just killed him for me right there. - In fact I don't care much for the Starks at all..Sansa and Arya are the only 2 whose chapters I usually enjoy. - Euron's complete badass-ness is totally hot - I fail to see the appeal of Jon. His storyline is not that interesting to me and I've never found his character all that interesting either. That's all for now..I was made for threads like these. Popular opinion often escapes me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindaElane Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I dislked it when Ygritte seduced John...erm...more like forced him to have sex or die. Man, did I get blasted for that one. Perhaps I am inviting more blasting, as I have mentioned it again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lightsnake Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 Well, it was coercion, but it's not like Jon was unwilling. He wanted her...and in fairness, Ygritte did save him at that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcandle17 Posted January 27, 2007 Author Share Posted January 27, 2007 I dislked it when Ygritte seduced John...erm...more like forced him to have sex or die. Man, did I get blasted for that one. Perhaps I am inviting more blasting, as I have mentioned it again. I agree. If the genders had been reversed, most people wouldn't hesitate to call it rape. And Ygritte was annoying as hell. In fact all the wildings bug me. They're anarchists, plus they smell bad! Were I the evil overlord queen of Westeros, I'd unleash Gregor north of the Wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faceless Dude Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 I hold no ill will toward Jaime for anything he has done. I mean, it' wasn't like Bran was the Stark heir, or anything.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dornish prince Posted January 27, 2007 Share Posted January 27, 2007 hmmm... i've never disliked jaime. although i loved his character, i think ned got what he deserved. i've disliked catelyn the ENTIRE time. i still hope that jon is ned's son. i hope sansa is married to the man that sits the iron throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yrael Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 hmmm... i still hope that jon is ned's son. Yeah, me too. Honorable Ned is boring. i hope sansa is married to the man that sits the iron throne. He'll need some kind of stool for that 'cause it's the wrong size for him. Littlefinger though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Last Frey Posted January 28, 2007 Share Posted January 28, 2007 I agree. If the genders had been reversed, most people wouldn't hesitate to call it rape. I do not agree. Mance didn't say "keep bedding Ygritte or you die," he actually implied that Ygritte's life was now being held hostage against Jon. She did pressure him into it, but I never got the feeling that he would be hurt if he continued to refuse her. Were I the evil overlord queen of Westeros, I'd unleash Gregor north of the Wall.A very Cersei plan. How would you deal with the Mountain once he became a wildling, about five hours after his first contact with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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