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Alyn Oakenfist

Why do Tyrion and Littlefinegr get shit on for being attracted to Sansa, but Harrold and the other Vale knights don't?

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On 8/4/2020 at 4:05 AM, Orm said:

Now if I say, Cersei deserved more than a light raping and few smacks from Robert..... What would you say?

Good lord

On 8/4/2020 at 4:16 AM, Orm said:

Not making a comparison..... Just presenting a moral pretense that women are always the victim no matter what......

Harry deserves to be used as a stalking horse cause he is a frat boy.

Yet Cersei doesn't deserve to be smacked or abused by Robert no matter how much of a horrible hoe she is to him.....

I've been trying to piece together something here without using personal insults, but it is difficult. Rape is bad Orm. It is really bad. It should never be used as a form of punishment, ever. Period. No one, NO ONE, ever deserves to be raped. Also, spousal abuse is bad Orm. Using your extremely superior stength to shut up someone is abusive, period. Neither of these are comparable to ...flirting with someone in an effort to marry them? Granted, Sansa is only doing it because LIttlefinger told her too...and LIttlefinger just wants power...but....Harry is still his own person here. He can choose to not like Sansa. In real life, people certainly try to improve there station in life by marrying rich. It happens a lot. I don't necessarily think these people are good people by any stretch of the imagination....but.....a good comparison would be like....lawyers tricking their clients...or salespeople tricking people out of their money..not.....spousal abuse and rape! Orm - These are not the same things. I want to say this one more time : Rape is bad Orm. It is really really bad. Some people say they wish they would have been killed rather than raped and left alive. Rape is really really really bad Orm. 

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41 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

. Robert and Cersei both do bad things to each other

Cersei does horrible things to Robert, Robert does bad things to Cersei.... I would appreciate it, if you acknowledged the the difference in degree of being inhuman is......

Murder>marital abuse, no?

41 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He could have presumably shipped Cersei off to Casterly Rock

He would've warranted his death sooner.....

 

I think a re-read is necessary for you to gauge what kind of people Cersei and Robert are at their core.... Although Robert already is at a disadvantage having no POV chapter....

And for Rob not trying and being a horrible dude in general (no matter how much shit is thrown at his life) is awfully inconsiderate, Anti-Bobby B and Cersei apologist of you....

Case in point, I remember in Cersei's own monologue that Rob tried to spend time with her , asking her to go to hunt with him.... But Cersei had other plans(ie: sabotaging him in every way possible)....and we know she permanently injures him, he doesn't...

And as I told before, GRRM himself considers Robert to be more good than bad,but not ruler material... than I don't think you have any grounds to rant "Robert would be crap to anyone" if the authors words say otherwise....

57 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Ah yes, some sexist language. Calling Robert, the most whorish character in the whole series a "good man" while calling Cersei a "horrible hoe" really says a lot about your argument I guess. 5. "Yeah it sucks being

 So, a whorish/slutty man or woman automatically disqualifies for being a good human being in your eyes? Wow man, says an awful lot about you I guess..

You know, I have no issues with Cersei or Robert being promiscuous to each other...

I have issues with Cersei commiting paternal fraud and whole other tons bad shit crazy,inhuman,cruel, paranoid, pointless, destructive, self-destructive shit.......

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Men are not. Men hold the power in this society in practically every way. Like, I don't know what to tell you Orm, but if you actually think that....I think you need take a women's study class or something, because you are blind to the reality of the situations that you are reading. 

You know I am just going to say that the first sentence in your statement is not true.... Its actually a specific class of people hold all the power, practically everyway in that society.....

And excuse me for not thinking that sexual objectification of women is the worst of crimes being committed in the bleak world of westeros/planetos.... I don't have the patience to explain to you why.....

 

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43 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Rape is really really really bad Orm. 

Yeah... It is and if you cared to read all my posts in this thread you would know I am not saying "rape not bad".......

It's just that Rob does it to Cersei and no one else.....( My opinion of Robert would be drastically different if he did what he did to almost anyone but Cersei).... 

And the character Cersei does really, really, really, really, really bad things such as baby-killing and other horrible shit out of spite and paranoia...

You being her apologist is making it really hard not to use personal insults.....

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1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Men are not. Men hold the power in this society in practica

Tons of men die a horrible death before it gets to the pillaging and raping after and during a battle.....you didn't care to mention it.....

See the pattern?

Is dying a horrible death not more awful than rape?..... Though brutalising is worse than horrible death I agree.... But that also happens to men....

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2 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

She would have been miserable. She says as much to Eddard.

I don't remember any quotes where she goes on about Bob's character besides that one where she doesn't like his philandering..... I may have forgotten so it would help  if you quote what ur talking about

Heh..... Considering what she did afterwards(assuming star-crossed lovers RL) and what happened to her and her family due to her "wise assessments"..... I won't put much stalk in what she has to say at all.....

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1 hour ago, Orm said:

Yeah... It is and if you cared to read all my posts in this thread you would know I am not saying "rape not bad".......

It's just that Rob does it to Cersei and no one else.....( My opinion of Robert would be drastically different if he did what he did to almost anyone but Cersei).... 

And the character Cersei does really, really, really, really, really bad things such as baby-killing and other horrible shit out of spite and paranoia...

You being her apologist is making it really hard not to use personal insults.....

Sorry, Orm but you're literally saying that you don't have a negative opinion of Robert because he only rapes Cersei (as far as we know) and Cersei is a bad person. I can't speak for the Lord of Raventree Hall but Robert raping Cersei gives me an extremely negative view of him, because rape is inexcusable whatever the character of the person being raped. In any case, Robert doesn't know about Cersei's bad actions so I'm not sure how they're relevant to his treatment of her.

Cersei and Robert may bring out the worst in each other but that worst has to be there in both their characters. 

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1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Sorry, Orm but you're literally saying that you don't have a negative opinion of Robert because he only rapes Cersei (as far as we know) and Cersei is a bad person. I can't speak for the Lord of Raventree Hall but Robert raping Cersei gives me an extremely negative view of him, because rape is inexcusable whatever the character of the person being raped. In any case, Robert doesn't know about Cersei's bad actions so I'm not sure how they're relevant to his treatment of her.

Cersei and Robert may bring out the worst in each other but that worst has to be there in both their characters. 

Cersei told him that she’d kill his daughter if he brought her to the Red Keep.

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10 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

Cersei told him that she’d kill his daughter if he brought her to the Red Keep.

He would kill her sons and daughter if he found out that they weren't his. His death can be directly attributed to the fact that Stannis, Eddard, and Jon Arryn all are too afraid to tell him about Cersei's philandering because they don't want children to be murdered. We don't have a guarantee that Robert would kill them I guess.....but...it seems extremely likely based on what we know. 

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1 minute ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

He would kill her sons and daughter if he found out that they weren't his. His death can be directly attributed to the fact that Stannis, Eddard, and Jon Arryn all are too afraid to tell him about Cersei's philandering because they don't want children to be murdered. We don't have a guarantee that Robert would kill them I guess.....but...it seems extremely likely based on what we know. 

1) Even if that’s true, those kids shouldn’t have existed in the first place. She was committing treason and deliberately passing of her inbred bastards as his children to steal his Kingdom.

2) Jon Arryn was killed beforehand and I don’t know that Stannis cared about that.

3) What Cersei was doing is a serious crime and paternity fraud is evil.

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2 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

1) Even if that’s true, those kids shouldn’t have existed in the first place. She was committing treason and deliberately passing of her inbred bastards as his children to steal his Kingdom.

2) Jon Arryn was killed beforehand and I don’t know that Stannis cared about that.

3) What Cersei was doing is a serious crime and paternity fraud is evil.

......Kay. Tommen didn't commit it. Myrcella didn't commit it. Even Joffrey, douchebag that he is, didn't commit it. See you said, "Cersei would kill Mya." I am saying, "Robert would kill Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella." Killing innocent children for the sins of another is evil. "Those kids shouldn't have existed in the first place." - man Robert apologists will stretch yo. They are children. I don't care if you think they "should have existed". Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". Good god. People on this forum today. Have you'll forgotten basic moral sensibilities? Rape is bad and children murder is bad shouldn't be controversial takes. 

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1 hour ago, Wall Flower said:

Sorry, Orm but you're literally saying that you don't have a negative opinion of Robert because he only rapes Cersei (as far as we know) and Cersei is a bad person. I can't speak for the Lord of Raventree Hall but Robert raping Cersei gives me an extremely negative view of him, because rape is inexcusable whatever the character of the person being raped. In any case, Robert doesn't know about Cersei's bad actions so I'm not sure how they're relevant to his treatment of her.

Cersei and Robert may bring out the worst in each other but that worst has to be there in both their characters. 

I actually want you and others to speak for me lol, as I'm having a lot of trouble coming up with what to say to this dude who....is clearly saying he is at least somewhat okay with rape, as long as it is done to bad people. And before, Orm, you show up here, let's quote you. 

 

3 hours ago, Orm said:

It's just that Rob does it to Cersei and no one else.....( My opinion of Robert would be drastically different if he did what he did to almost anyone but Cersei).... 

You are basically saying your okay with Robert being a rapist, as long as he only rapes bad people. This means, no matter what, you are somewhat okay with rape. That is bad. You know how I said rape was bad over and over. It is because you clearly don't understand how bad it is. Raping people is bad. Raping bad people is bad. Raping good people bad. Raping people is bad. People who rape other people are bad. Period. Not, but..if the person is bad. Not, but if this, or but if that. Raping people is bad all the time no matter what. There is no case with rape like murder. For example, murdering someone to protect yourself (as you know they planned to murder you) You don't rape people to prevent other bad things. Rape is just bad, no matter what, in ever single case of it happening. 

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Posted (edited)

 

6 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

......Kay. Tommen didn't commit it. Myrcella didn't commit it. Even Joffrey, douchebag that he is, didn't commit it. See you said, "Cersei would kill Mya." I am saying, "Robert would kill Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella." Killing innocent children for the sins of another is evil. "Those kids shouldn't have existed in the first place." - man Robert apologists will stretch yo. They are children. I don't care if you think they "should have existed". Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". Good god. People on this forum today. Have you'll forgotten basic moral sensibilities? Rape is bad and children murder is bad shouldn't be controversial takes. 

1) I never even admitted that he would kill them. I said that he might. My point is that there’s a clear difference between Robert sleeping around and Cersei sleeping around. That’s why Cersei’s bastard got to sit on the Iron Throne.

2) No. The same isn’t true for Jon Snow and Mya Stone, since they weren’t deliberately produced to commit a massive case of treasonous paternity fraud. It’s not just that they were born outside the bonds of marriage at all.

3’ Just consider how hypocritical it is for a Cersei to threaten to murder Mya Stone if arobert brought her to his home, while she was raising her bastard and passing them off as his kids.

Edited by Lee-Sensei

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3 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

 

1) I never even admitted that he would kill them. I said that he might. My point is that there’s a clear difference between Robert sleeping around and Cersei sleeping around. That’s why Cersei’s bastard got to sit on the Iron Throne.

3’ Just consider how hypocritical it is for a Cersei to threaten to murder Mya Stone if arobert brought her to his home, while she was raising her bastard and passing them off as his kids.

Again, Cersei is bad. Please quote me where I am making an argument that Cersei is not an evil person. She has about one redeeming quality.....and everything else she does is deeply selfish and downright evil in many cases. Tommen and Myrcella (I can't include Joffrey here) are not evil people. In fact, they are repeatedly shown to be normal, innocent, and even downright kind, children. Yes, I will say...I guess, lying about a children's paternity could be slightly worse than admitting a child's paternity I guess. However, there is the argument that while Robert is allowed to sleep with whoever he pleases, Cersei would be hanged for cheating on Robert openly. I mean....unless I am reading the books wrong, that seems like an actual possibility.

8 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) No. The same isn’t true for Jon Snow and Mya Stone, since they weren’t deliberately produced to commit a massive case of treasonous paternity fraud. It’s not just that they were born outside the bonds of marriage at all.

Now, let's focus on the core here : Mya, Jon, Tommen, and Myrcella are the same Lee-Sensei. None of them committed crimes. They are all innocent of their parents choices. I will now quote myself, "Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". " So...in other words, your second point here is I guess that, no, you wouldn't hate Jon or Mya, but, yes, you would hate Tommen and Myrcella for just existing because a crime their parents committed. Wow, just wow. Do you really want to stick by this? Is this the hill you want to be known for climbing? Again, and I can't believe I have to say this again : Child murder is bad. Tommen and Myrcella do not deserve to die. They deserve to live. They did nothing wrong. If Robert kills them, he is not better than Cersei killing Mya. It is still child murder. I don't care the circumstances. They are equally evil acts. There isn't some less evil child murder. All child murder is equally evil. 

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8 minutes ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

Again, Cersei is bad. Please quote me where I am making an argument that Cersei is not an evil person. She has about one redeeming quality.....and everything else she does is deeply selfish and downright evil in many cases. Tommen and Myrcella (I can't include Joffrey here) are not evil people. In fact, they are repeatedly shown to be normal, innocent, and even downright kind, children. Yes, I will say...I guess, lying about a children's paternity could be slightly worse than admitting a child's paternity I guess. However, there is the argument that while Robert is allowed to sleep with whoever he pleases, Cersei would be hanged for cheating on Robert openly. I mean....unless I am reading the books wrong, that seems like an actual possibility.

Now, let's focus on the core here : Mya, Jon, Tommen, and Myrcella are the same Lee-Sensei. None of them committed crimes. They are all innocent of their parents choices. I will now quote myself, "Are you a person who would hate Jon Snow for being a bastard? Mya Stone? Because the same logic could be applied to them. They were born out of wedlock, they "shouldn't exist". " So...in other words, your second point here is I guess that, no, you wouldn't hate Jon or Mya, but, yes, you would hate Tommen and Myrcella for just existing because a crime their parents committed. Wow, just wow. Do you really want to stick by this? Is this the hill you want to be known for climbing? Again, and I can't believe I have to say this again : Child murder is bad. Tommen and Myrcella do not deserve to die. They deserve to live. They did nothing wrong. If Robert kills them, he is not better than Cersei killing Mya. It is still child murder. I don't care the circumstances. They are equally evil acts. There isn't some less evil child murder. All child murder is equally evil. 

1) I don’t think that Tommen, Marcella or evening Joffrey deserve to die for what Jaime and Cersei did. I’m just saying that they’re fundamentally different, since Cersei was committing paternity fraud against the King and sowing the seeds for a major war.

2) Theres a reason that women cheating is considered worse in this setting. They live in a world without paternity tests.

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7 minutes ago, Lee-Sensei said:

2) Theres a reason that women cheating is considered worse in this setting. They live in a world without paternity tests.

No, that reason is sexism. Just like it is in the modern day. Sexism is the reason you are looking for. 

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3 hours ago, Orm said:

Cersei does horrible things to Robert, Robert does bad things to Cersei.... I would appreciate it, if you acknowledged the the difference in degree of being inhuman is......

Murder>marital abuse, no?

No, rape is horrible. Drugging someone's drink and then allowing themselves to set up their own death < Raping repeatedly. Yeah, I'll say that is the case. However, murder is bad. Agreed. Rape is right up next to it though. Like right there with it.

I do recognize the difference in being inhuman, do you? You clearly are downplaying rape repeatedly, while as I have not actually downplayed Cersei's actions at any point. Why don't you go on back there, use some reading comprehension, and realize I haven't once downplayed Cersei's negative actions. Not once. Perhaps you are confused because I said Cersei wasn't evil incarnate. That is my bad. What I meant is she does have nuance, even if that nuance is small. She is one of the most evil characters in the story, but she is still a person who loves her children. She loved Tywin too, even though he treated her like crap. However, I have no wish to forgive her actions, only to say that this (a quote from you) : "A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse" is not the case. She does have redeeming qualities, however limited they are.....and she seems like she has empathy for her children in her PoV. 

3 hours ago, Orm said:

I think a re-read is necessary for you to gauge what kind of people Cersei and Robert are at their core.... Although Robert already is at a disadvantage having no POV chapter....

I am rereading the book...literally now. Robert is an asshole from his very introduction. Cersei is an asshole/evil person from her very introduction. The only reason we have a somewhat positive view of Robert is because we get him from Eddard's perspective. He is a truly horrible King, a lazy person, a bad father (remember he thinks those kids are his), a bad friend (he literally never listen's to Eddard, ever), a horrificly horrible husband, and for a kicker, a bad brother. 

3 hours ago, Orm said:

And for Rob not trying and being a horrible dude in general (no matter how much shit is thrown at his life) is awfully inconsiderate, Anti-Bobby B and Cersei apologist of you....

And as I told before, GRRM himself considers Robert to be more good than bad,but not ruler material... than I don't think you have any grounds to rant "Robert would be crap to anyone" if the authors words say otherwise....

The only one who is apologist here is you : You are clearly a "Robert apologist". I have never apologized for Cersei's actions. I have never acted as though Cersei was not a horrible person. I can dislike Robert, and dislike Cersei even more (as is the case). Amazingly, people can dislike more than one person. GRRM writes gray characters. That is why I love him. 

4 hours ago, Orm said:

 So, a whorish/slutty man or woman automatically disqualifies for being a good human being in your eyes? Wow man, says an awful lot about you I guess..

Straw man argument alert. Straw man argument alert. Orm has made up things that Lord of Raventree Hall never said. Actually what I said was that you insulted Cersei using a sexist insult despite the fact that the character you were defending was more of that word. You then made up some illogical crap because you don't have any actual defense of your sexist language. So, why did you use the insult? Why did you say this if you have no problem with sleeping around? : "just not a horrible hoe in general" 

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4 hours ago, Orm said:

And the character Cersei does really, really, really, really, really bad things such as baby-killing and other horrible shit out of spite and paranoia...

You being her apologist is making it really hard not to use personal insults.....

(Imagine me expelling air slowly in an irritated manner) : Orm. Orm, Orm, Orm. Straw man argument numbero dos. Again, you are right Orm, Cersei does many bad things. I am not apologizing for her behavior. Saying, "Raping Cersei is bad." does not apologize for her actions. Rape should not be used as punishment. Do I really have to go through my rape explanation again? Well once more, everyone in the crowd, "Rape is bad. Rape done to bad people is bad. Rape done to good people is bad. Rape is always bad." 

Again, and only so you can't use this argument against me since apparently you will : Cersei does many evil things. Killing Barra is evil. Trying to kill Gendry is evil. Whipping Alaya is evil. Imprisoning and torturing Sansa is evil.  Killing Lady was evil. Do I have to list her every evil action just so I can explain to you that rape is bad and that Cersei doesn't deserve to be raped...that in fact, *gasp*, no one deserves to be raped...ever..in any circumstances. 

3 hours ago, Orm said:

Tons of men die a horrible death before it gets to the pillaging and raping after and during a battle.....you didn't care to mention it.....

See the pattern?

Is dying a horrible death not more awful than rape?..... Though brutalising is worse than horrible death I agree.... But that also happens to men....

Straw man argument number..3. Again, your straw man arguments are somehow getting worse. You've now decided because I think rape is evil, that I don't care about murder. This leap is so great I don't actually know how to respond to it. Orm : People don't have to mention other bad things when talking about every bad thing. "See the pattern?" The pattern that you've created in your mind? No, Orm, I don't see that pattern, lol, and neither do you. You just made up an argument to try to make yourself look better. Just one point I want to make : You realize rape can be a form of brutalizing right? Just wondering. Brutalizing def. in case you  wondered : 'inducing cruelty, violence, or insensitivity to the pain of others by repeated exposure to violence.' Rape, especially repeated rape, say after a war, or in an arranged marriage, could certainly be included under this definition. An example I could think of would be Jeyne Pool, who is obviously brutalized by Ramsay. 

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

The absence of proof is not proof. To the rest, I agree. I am glad to actially engage with you on the topic at hand.  If your grievences with Tyrion happen to be that he raped a slave, then i agree with them. 

I did not make her whatever age I wanted, I assumed based on the fact she was almost 14 and time had passed. You are making assumptions and I am making assumptions, just different assumptions. If you are absolutely correct about thr timeline, then she is 13...but considering some chapters in ACoK take place after chapters in ASoS (and this goes for every book) I don't think your proof is proof. Nor has GRRM probably even finalized that chapter. I assumed she was 14, you assumed she was 13. Saying someone is throwing a fit because they are not agreeing with is childish at best. People can disagree with you. You aren't a King who's word and logic is law. You did not prove Sansa is 13, you proved that (if your logic is correct which is not a garuntee) she probably is 13. I actually don't care if she is almost 14 or 14 as my point has nothing to do with whether she is 13 or 14. I assumed she was 14 based on her almost being 14 and my assumption that time had passed, which none of your comments proved wrong (time did pass, we just dont know how much time). If TWoW comes out and she a birthday in the second chapter, i will gladly concede I was wrong. Now, I don't need too, because you have not proven i am wrong, and again i am not choosing to "age her as I want". I made an assumption and I am sticking to that assumption because nothing you have said convinces me othersise, and if she is still 13, she is so close to 14 it barely matters. The way you talk is condescending dude. Stop. Suggestion, if you want pleasant discussion, use a different tone. What I don't like most is someone making different assumptions (that could be wrong) and actingn like there assumptions are law (when I freely admitted my assumptions could be wrong). If you can pull up a sectionof the chapter where Sansa says, "I an still 13." then I will gladly admit you are right. You can't though. You are assuming. You aren't presenting facts, so don't talk like you are. I was a Biology undegraduate and am currently starting a Graduate degree in Ecology. If there is one thing they force us to remember over and over, it is that it is important to distinguish between "fact" and "assumption". If I am observing magpie, and that magpie's tree has a lot of berries disappear, but I did not watch the magpie eat te berries, i can write that my assumption is the magpie ate tr berries, but I cannot present it as fact. 

Since we're going by personal credentials - master industrial design, extra studies in physics, math teacher for adults wanting a HS degree in math/sciences.

Facts and logic and a timeline project ( https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ZsY3lcDDtTdBWp1Gx6mfkdtZT6-Gk0kdTGeSC_Dj7WM/edit#gid=8 ) to make an educated guess.

The facts:

  • Sansa is 13 in her last chapter of aFfC (Alayne 2).
  • aDwD Jon 2 synchs with aFfC Sam 1 (Sam, Gilly and maester Aemon leave for Eastwatch)

Timeline estimation:

  • Alayne 2 occurs around half May of the year 300 AC. References in the chapter: Riverrun has yielded, Stannis still holds Dragonstone (that is the news of Loras Tyrell's capture of Dragonstone is not yet known, either because it hasn't happened yet, the news hasn't reached the Vale yet, or the theory that Loras Tyrell sailed for Oldtown and is duping Cersei is correct).
  • aDwD Jon 1 and Jon 2 are estimated to occur in the second half of February 300 AC, after aFfC Sansa 1 (where Nestor Royce leads the inquiry into Lysa's death).
  • remember that much of aFfC synchs with aDwD: Cersei receiving the news of Davos's death after being taken prisoner at White Harbor, Boltons moving on Moat Cailin, receives a letter from the Lords Declarant.
  • Alayne 2 estimated to occur between aDwD Jon 7 and Jon 8 (when Jon sends Val in search of Tormund).
  • Arianne's, Selmy's, Tyrion's, Vic's, Theon's, Asha's and Aerion's released or peeked at chapters of tWoW occur before Jon's final chapter. So, much of what was written and hauled out of aDwD to be relegated to tWoW is estimated to have occurred late July and first half of August of 300 AC.
  • Between Alayne 2 of aFfC and Jon 12 of aDwD is at best a 3 month discrepance.
  • Sansa's namedays fall about a moon/month before the change of the year, in aGoT (298), in aCoK (299) and in aSoS (300).
  • Jon 12 estimated to occur second half of August 300 AC.

So, it took aFfC to progress from beginning of February 300 AC until May 300 AC for Sansa, which is 3 months. It took the latter half of aDwD to progress 3 months beyond Alayne 2. It would take little over another 3 months before she has her name day, which would be half a year after Alayne 2.

Sansa's tWoW chapter has few timeline references, and most can be altered:

  • Sansa thinks of Queen Cersei having had 12 dwarf heads gifted, none which were Tyrion's. So, this chapter was planned by George to occur before the news of Cersei's imprisonment is known, let alone Cersei had her walk of shame. At least it shows that George planned to have HtH lust after a girl who was in reality 13 at the time. It's no biggie to now have it occur after the murder of Kevan, after which Varys and the reader expect Cersei to take control once more. And of course, George can edit or pad the reference to Cersei to the post aDwD or final aDwD timeline events.
  • Myranda mentions that some competitors have arrived a moon before HtH does, and have been scrounging on Nestor Royce's food. Who these competitors are is not clear, but it may allude to Shadrich, Byron, etc... Of course George remains vague enough to have it include other guests, and Shadrich et all were hired by LF anyway.
  • However, the timeline reference with regards to HtH in Sansa's excerpt chapter provides a window on how much timeline George can stretch it. In Alayne 2, Sansa learns that HtH has 1 bastard child and another is on the way. Sansa's excerpt chapter refers to this. HtH says his firstborn is 2, but his second is not yet born. Allowing a certain amount of time for a young woman to discover she's preggers, to inform HtH, and for Myranda at the Gates of the Moon to learn of it, we're looking at Saffron being about 3 moons pregnant (or longer) by the time Sansa learns of it in Alayne 2. Since Saffron has not yet birthed the child when HtH talks to Sansa at the ball, Sansa's excerpt chapter, must fall within the next 6 months (half november), and thus before Sansa turns 14.

As it is unlikely that Sansa's chapter would fall at the end of tWoW, as it sets up all that will befall in the Vale during tWoW, it either occurs alongside the other excerpt chapters, with pretty much all of them occurring before Jon 12, or shortly after, making it the second half of Sansa's 13th year.

My grievances with Tyrion are multifold, but can be summarized as, "Rich boy pitying himself, but loves harming women in retribution, and seeing rape as a valid instrument of war and revenge." There's a long list of women he either hoped to be raped and killed, cheered being killed, he killed, he raped, he resents for not giving it to him. He's the guy getting picked on, who then kicks the dog, so he can wallow in his self misery some more, feel superior than those of lower birth or social status. Just absolute yuck :ack: 

Edited by sweetsunray

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

No, rape is horrible. Drugging someone's drink and then allowing themselves to set up their own death < Raping repeatedly. Yeah, I'll say that is the case. However, murder is bad. Agreed. Rape is right up next to it though. Like right there with it.

I do recognize the difference in being inhuman, do you? You clearly are downplaying rape repeatedly, while as I have not actually downplayed Cersei's actions at any point. Why don't you go on back there, use some reading comprehension, and realize I haven't once downplayed Cersei's negative actions. Not once. Perhaps you are confused because I said Cersei wasn't evil incarnate. That is my bad. What I meant is she does have nuance, even if that nuance is small. She is one of the most evil characters in the story, but she is still a person who loves her children. She loved Tywin too, even though he treated her like crap. However, I have no wish to forgive her actions, only to say that this (a quote from you) : "A horrible monster with no redeeming quality, empathy or remorse" is not the case. She does have redeeming qualities, however limited they are.....and she seems like she has empathy for her children in her PoV. 

I am rereading the book...literally now. Robert is an asshole from his very introduction. Cersei is an asshole/evil person from her very introduction. The only reason we have a somewhat positive view of Robert is because we get him from Eddard's perspective. He is a truly horrible King, a lazy person, a bad father (remember he thinks those kids are his), a bad friend (he literally never listen's to Eddard, ever), a horrificly horrible husband, and for a kicker, a bad brother. 

The only one who is apologist here is you : You are clearly a "Robert apologist". I have never apologized for Cersei's actions. I have never acted as though Cersei was not a horrible person. I can dislike Robert, and dislike Cersei even more (as is the case). Amazingly, people can dislike more than one person. GRRM writes gray characters. That is why I love him. 

Straw man argument alert. Straw man argument alert. Orm has made up things that Lord of Raventree Hall never said. Actually what I said was that you insulted Cersei using a sexist insult despite the fact that the character you were defending was more of that word. You then made up some illogical crap because you don't have any actual defense of your sexist language. So, why did you use the insult? Why did you say this if you have no problem with sleeping around? : "just not a horrible hoe in general" 

Hmm..... Discussing morals on a world which has shit moral standards is stupid.... And frankly you are constantly moving the goal-post to suit your needs..... To press on what you think should be horrible and not so horrible...... Which is ok.... And I can do that as well with impunity.....

I don't think any adult in westeros and especially the ones we know can qualify to be a good person by modern standards.. or anyone in the real world would be good person if we could read your/my life in a book..... Or actually you could depending on the subject/perspective....

But my westerosi standard which i made on morals from a scale of 1(Ramsay level depravity) to 10(Brianne level goodness) here's my ratings of characters in discussion,

Robert=6.6     Cersei=2.7.  Sansa=8.5

Tyrion=6.3     LF=3.2    

 

I can see that you have personal issues with rape. Fine...... But you do know how Robert died right?? The dude's guts was spilling out for 3 days.... I don't think you relate with the situation as much as you do rape it seems...... And you word it as if Cersei is loosely responsible for the horrible murder.... And then expect me not to think of you as a Cersei apologist....classy....

And if we go by Cersei, she doesn't consider herself a rape victim on which your building your premise,

"Our marriage was a melee... So he did not lie"- Cersei.....

You mention her children.... That is also toxic and secluded,(she aborts Rob's baby out of spite).... And she only pampered in very wrong way Joffrey possible....."the truth is what you make of it"..... 

And you seem to be triggered by my language which I am using for fictional characters.... When I am calling Cersei a horrible hoe I mean to convey how much of piece of shit she is, not that philandering is an evil trait......

 

Edited by Orm
Punctuation

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You've now decided because I think rape is evil, that I don't care about murder. This leap is so great I don't

And you have decided that since I consider murder more bad , I don't consider rape bad.....

 

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

This leap is so great I don't actually know how to respond to it. Orm : People don't have to mention other bad things when talking about every bad thing. "See the pattern?" The pattern that you've created in your mind? No, Orm, I don't see that pattern, lol, and neither do you. You just made up an argument to try to make yourself look better. Just one point I want to make : You realize

Who is the one being disregarding here??

You do have to talk about all bad things when your talking about bad things.... Or else you listen and crater to one side and disregard the other......

Which when you said "Being a woman sucks more than being a man in westeros and anyone who says otherwise is delusional" I think that is delusional...... And I really don't have the patience is to explain to you why....

And one example where I say it is primarily the men in general who are gonna die pathetic deaths in wars..... You say its a straw-manned..... wow..... Just Wow........ And I never compared the Rob/Cersei situation to Harry/Sansa....

1 hour ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

You realize rape can be a form of brutalizing right? Just wondering. Brutalizing def. in case you  wondered : 'inducing cruelty, violence, or insensitivity to the pain of others by repeated exposure to violence.' Rape, especially repeated rape, say after a war, or in an arranged marriage, could certainly be included under this definition. An example I could think of would be Jeyne Pool, who is obviously brutalized by Ramsay. 

Heh... Comparing the Ramsay/Jeyne to Rob/Cersei and say it's similar is a straw man...... And you know it....

 

 

Edited by Orm

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