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Wintersshewolf

Arya Jon and Arya Still Endgame?

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On 8/6/2020 at 5:11 PM, Only 89 selfies today said:

Jon and Arya will be together before the end of the books.  It may not play out according to the original outline but they will be together.  I believe they will become mates after they die.  As wolves.  Jon is the third lie that must be slain after all.  And Arya is already dead inside.  Their love for each other will survive death and carry on in whatever form they get for their second lives. 

This.  Though the spark of romance will begin while they still live as humans.  

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

It's one thing not to want a theory to happen, it's another to accept the facts about whether it will happen or not. I see some people often say, "I don't want it, so I prefer to ignore every evidence that exists," by their actions. Anyway.

Agreed. This is a main issue of this forum. As I do not support this possibility, I still can't say that the possibility of it is not hanging around still.

But, I hope I could show my points properly on why I think it won't happen, and why it ain't the most likely one either.

Quote

Of course, I do not have a 100% claim, but I think this situation continues. If you look at the review here, you can see that GRRM has stayed faitfull to the storyline in general, and even some important plots. I already quoted it there, GRRM also said that the plot didn't deviate much, it just the story is extended.

Now the main problem with this is that GRRM clearly is keeping his own ending he's been planning from the very beginning. But this is not just adding to the journey, but choosing a different way to approach his ending. You can see this by adding the Dornish plot, the YG plot, and even the Wot5K and the Ironborn weren't planned the way we see it currently. Not to mention Sansa's journey, and Daenerys' Meereenese arc (altough I think that will matter nothing in the events of the ending). What I mean is that GRRM clearly kept the purposes of his main and most important 5-10 characters. But that does not necesarilly include relations and relationships too, as you too admitted it above, and we both can clearly see it.

11 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

For example; by whom was Winterfell burned in the letter? Tyrion, Lannisters. With whom did Jon fought for Arya? Tyrion.

Let's look at the books now. Who was Winterfell burned by? Ramsay, Boltons. With whom did Jon fought for Arya and will he fight in the next book? Ramsay!

"I want my bride back!"

As you can see, GRRM kept the same plot, only swapping Tyrion and Ramsay. He kept the warm relationship between Jon and Arya, kept Needle (jon gave it). GRRM has kept the plot where Jon is split between his vows and desire to help his family / Arya... and go on.

As George confirmed it several times, ASOIAF has several main characters, including Arya and Jon too. But even originally there was Bran, Tyrion and Daenerys too. With your example, you made clear that he does change main characters' story (Tyrion's, who is confirmed to be his favourite), and can even choose them a completely different path to their ending, leaving behind the relations he originally planned for them.

11 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Over the course of 5 books, Arya has thought Jon at least 42 times; Jon has thought of Arya at least 48 times. Considering that they think about their other siblings 3-5 times, this is quite extreme.

Well, I can't disagree when you're showing facts, so you're obviously right.

But, take into consideration that when Jon last saw Arya, the girl was just 9, almost 10. Jon Snow grow up as the bastard of Winterfell, without having any normal human relationships except with Ned, Robb and Arya (Bran and Rickon were too young to grow as close as he did it Robb and Arya, and Sansa was an AH). That obviously means that she was the only female being Jon had a normal relationship with. Literally noone else. It is imaginable why he thinks of her so regularly, but this isn't even the only argument I'd like to show you.

The age gap. Jon is a grown man by now, and the last time he saw Arya, she wasn't 20 yet. We obviously don't have the numbers of ages George originally planned for his characters, but one can imagine he wasn't imagining love triangles with a 10-11 year old girl, especially that Tyrion at least was old enough to be born when Aerys was still reigning. Either way, Jon is a grown man, already lost his virginity and is/was about to get into another relationship with Val, who's portrayed as a great beauty, and also more than 20 years old.

You can say that the age difference is just the same as it is with Arya, but it does actually matter at the age of 16 if the girl is 5 years older or younger than you.

Of course, any love or other feeling between the two doesn't have to include sexual tension, but it's weird that he's thinking of her when he's with another woman that way, isn't it? That's what honestly makes this pretty weird to me, not thst they're cousins. But I imagine this is what happens when you grow up without a mother and your little-little sister is the only female human being you ever had a normal  relationship with before.

And yes, Jon remembers Arya many times, but in the later books (and I mean ADWD), it's Melisandre who throws him into this. He wasn't thinking of her unless Melisandre mentioned that she's coming to the Wall (who turned out to be Alys), and then later Melisandre again showed a possibility to him how he could free her from Ramsay's captivity (who again is not Arya, but Jeyne, and once that becomes clear, he won't be chasing her). So yea, given this, Arya+Jon pretty much would've faded away, but that does not mean that those interesting hints aren't present in the earlier books (altough I tried to give an explanation to that too).

And there's also something that applies on the case of both. They both think that the only living relative left for them is the other one. Who else should they think of the most then? And I haven't even mentioned that Arya is the part of those general somekindof amazonian characters who are portrayed as not interested in boys at such a young age (her, Aerea Targaryen, Lyanna, Laena Velaryon, etc...), but instead in exploring, fighting, and journeying (such things women aren't generally interested in). We haven't even saw Arya having those kind of feelings (regarding anyone) you're talking about, but instead desiring home and her older brother who was always kind to him, altough many mocked her for her horseface. The two are portrayed as having the closest relationship of a borther and sister out the 6 Stark children.

How could a 16 year old boy be in love with a memory of her 9 year old sister? And how can an 11-12 year old girl be in love with his older brother, when there's also that great taboo factor of being borther and sister to each other?

And how will it work out, considering that Nymeria someway still has to be part of Arya's journey, before or after she reunites with Jon, which is bad in both cases. One can argue that the more time the better, but time would've pushed Jon away from Arya's memory but for Melisandre playing her part in it not to happen. And what about Val, who's just about to have a relationship with Jon, once he comes back? What would happen if Arya reunites with him when he's having an affair with Val? 

This is just what you've been talking about: looking at the picture in it's whole. 

Not to mention we are given candidates for both: In Arya's case Gendry and Edric Dayne. In Jon's case I would consider Val and Daenerys as more likely candidates than Arya, given his past situation with Val (before the assasination), and the parallel between Jon and Daenerys trough ADWD and Jon's secret heritage pushes Daenerys into a high position regarding this thing (and that their love (if they will ever love each other) would parallel Rhaegar and Lyanna).

This is what I can really think of currently. Hope you'll se my point of why I think Arya and Jon won't end up together. I'd say Jon and Val are 100%, but Jon will likely outlive her (she just gives the same feeling YG does. That she's doomed (because she ends up with Jon)). That leaves us with Arya and Daenerys. I consider Daenerys the likelier, and altough I'm not a big fan of this ship (for real), I'd take it (much) better than Arya and Jon. 

Edited by Daeron the Daring

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@DaerontheDaring

First of all, I sincerely thank you. I became a member of this forum years ago, but since I realized that the members were active recently (nobody was writing at that time, I left too) I started to write again. Ever since I came back I observed a weird form of discussion on this forum (not saying for everyone); Let me just say that it is not a healthy shape in general. That's why I was very happy to see your healthy method. I find it more enjoyable to discuss with people who think differently because we can have longer conversations. :)

Of course, if I'm not a burden to you, I'll ask for something. As you can imagine, English is not my native language, so I can understand wrong some of the things you wrote. Please correct me when you think something like this is happening.

Now what I understand correctly is that the basis of your thinking basically rests on three things(of course according to the arguments I have presented).

1- Age gap

2- Arya is the only positive woman Jon knows about(?) So naturally he thinks about her all the time(?)

3-  The fact that the author continues to keep some things does not show that he continues to keep the love plot; example; as the main character Tyrion's plot has changed so much (?)

Now ... As you said, Martin discovers many characters and stories along the way. This can be a very troublesome situation for a gardener writer. Yet we know that Martin knows the end of the story of all the Stark children and the great Lannisters; We also know that characters like Jon, Arya, and Tyrion wrote as planned from the very beginning. He said he knew who was going to die and who will marry.

( It is a fact that not everything was explained in the letter. For example, Cersei and his other children are not mentioned, but we can infer between the lines that they exist. Therefore, we cannot know exactly how many of the additions you mentioned are not or are in the first place. It is a closed box for us. For example, Meereen ... While ASOIAF was 3 volumes, Dany was coming in volume 2. Did Martin have planned 3 city conquests in the first phase or not? Not like now but a quick one. Because if you pay attention, the conquest of the first three cities in book 3 happened quickly in one book, but then Dany decided to stay in Meereen because the volume of the book increased and naturally the story expanded. Perhaps it was not in the plan at all, and again, city conquests were added as the story expanded. We do not know. We can't be sure.)

Let's remember some of his statements

Quote

 

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/

...

“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what JonSnow’s arc is gonna be. ”

...

I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”

...

At Balticon 2016 he said he knows who sits on the Iron Throne at the end.

...

A year later, in a video interview he continued by saying he has always known the fates of his main characters, who lives or dies, marries who...etc since 1991 when he began writing.

 

Quote

 

Q: Have the plotlines diverged much since you began writing the series, or did you have the entire plot more or less figured out from the very beginning? Were any characters added or further fleshed out beyond your original intention? Have you made any changes to your initial plans during the course of the writing of the series?

GRRM: I won’t say the plotlines have diverged, but the process of getting from here to there has taken more time and more pages than I initially estimated… perhaps because I found the places and people I encountered along the way so interesting. The secondary and tertiary characters are largely to blame, the spearcarriers who keep insisting that they’re human too, when all I want them to do is stand there and be quiet and hold that spear. Yes, some of my initial plans have changed along the way. If they hadn’t, I would just be connecting the dots, and that would drive me mad. Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp. The tale takes on a life of its own in the writing. - SSM 2006

...

Question:  How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

 

 

In general, we see that GRRM sticks to the storyline and even to the plot in his explanations. In my Outline review article, I have already examined each of them and stated how and which ones have changed.

Tyrion example; Tyrion's storline is exactly the same.  Tyrion first fought on the side of his own family and was betrayed by them, establishing a close relationship with some of the Stark children, and then becoming enemies of his own family and changing sides ... Is there any deviation in this storyline? No. 

I'm sure it caught your attention, I marked it with bold already ... Martin says there are no deviations in the plot in his statement, but adds that he has changed some of his plans. So we can see it as the official explanation of why we don't see all of the plot mentioned in the letter in the books, kind of.

We continue with Tyrion. Tyrion was not married to Sansa in the first place. He made friends with Arya and fell in love with her, fighting for her with Jon. Tyrion fought Robb and then burned Winterfell. Finally, he moved to the Stark side.

So a significant part of Tyrion's plot has changed, but his arc is the same. The reason for this is two; "other plot inspiration" and "forced changes in the expanding story."

Despite that, he fought alongside the Stark army alongside his family, plotted ... He befriended Jon, not Arya (probably the most accurate plot, because for Dance 2 and more, Tyrion's relationship with all dragons is important, and only with Jon having close friendship, it will be much more important in the future). Tyrion was betrayed by Jaime (and other family members) and waged war on his own family, changing sides. This cannot be presented as a 100% claim (we do not write the book after all, we cannot say 100% to any claim), but I think it would be correct to think that Tyrion will be with the Starks as well as the Targ in the future. Since this part of Tyrion's arc is not yet complete, we can offer many possibilities. It is noteworthy that Tyrion marries Sansa and Sansa marries a Lannister in every way. So there is a reason why Tyrion was attached to the Starks and Sansa's marital status was locked up by the Lannisters. I will not comment on Sansa, but from the point of view of Tyrion ... it can be predicted that Tyrion's connection with the Starks in some way from the first plan will have a significant effect on the story.

I hope I didn't explain it complicated. :I 

So in general the Tyrion example shows us this. In general, we can see that GRRM holds every plot that will affect characters' arc.

Quote

 

- Is there a character that you initially postponed or diverted the way you gave them? If yes, who?

No, I cannot say there is. In some cases the chronologies are different from what I initially wanted, but the stories of all the characters continue the same. - GRRM, SSM 2012

 

That's exactly why GRRM says "I know what Jon, Arya and Tyrion's arc will be from the very beginning", there is no change in this matter, only some plots change.

Tyrion has no love for Arya. It is healthy to assume that this was not a crucial plot for Tyrion, because Martin changed that. Of course, if Tyrion is not planning to do anything in the future when he meets the Starks again ... I think this possibility may still be possible (because Thysa's description is somewhat reminiscent of Arya, and also what happened in the Arya and dwarf scene in Mercy POV seemed to be a sign of that, but it could just a wave to the old idea), but it's a low probability for me. Still as you can see i cannot ignore some possible signs.

Here we can discuss what effect a love between Jon and Arya might have for their arc and the significance of this influence. Based on this, we can offer some ideas on whether Martin has decided to keep this love plan. BUT! As a fandom, we can discuss which plot causes what kind of arc change, but as a result, it is not 100% certain as everyone will only write their own predictions.

Arguing basically doesn't make much sense, as different points of view will produce different results. Because there is no certainty of the conclusion to be drawn, it is all possible, what matters is what the author thinks and wants. We cannot both know if the love for Jon-Arya is from "changing plans" since we cannot reach a definitive conclusion on the possibilities, and it may be healthy for us to admit that we cannot definitely claim it. Of course you "you think it changed, I think not." But as I said, if we start talking about this arc-plot effect, we cannot come to a conclusion. 

It might be better if I say what I wanted to say at the end now. The current discussion is generally based on "probability" and "story base" thoughts. I call this "story math". The mathematics of the story is pregnant with many plots (I don't know if there is such an idiom in English, but there is an idiom called "pregnant" in Turkish. This means that the x issue can cause many events to happen, but which one is not certain.) 

Therefore, some of our comments that we will make based on story math will not be wrong basically. 

We just don't know which boy Martin will choose. Whether either party's interpretation is justified will depend entirely on Martin's choice. This leads us to a new dead end, right?

Some of my friends often comment only on the basis of story math and form theories. But Martin said something. Foreshadowings and signs. You can comment with story math for some writers, because not every writer uses foreshadowing and markup, but Martin uses it extensively. According to him, if we follow them and combine them correctly, we can predict some events. I even heard that some fans had guessed the end of the story correctly.

If I remember correctly, there was a lot of foreshadowing in the first book as well, he regretted that. I passed it all, in the first book, it's the sign of the end of the story (somewhere in the first half). In other words, we have to make interpretations by looking at them while creating and commenting on the mathematics of the story. I gave a link where a member showed a lot of possible foreshadowing over the course of 5 books. I think a theory should be discussed along with these.

1- Age Gap - 2 - Arya is the only positive woman Jon knows about(?) So naturally he thinks about her all the time(?)

This young age issue is very troubling among fandom, it is very understandable. The characters are very young. Martin had already wanted a swift transition at first, but he couldn't. So he came up with the idea of a 5-year gap, but he did not succeed in this. He wanted to use 5 years for Arya and Bran to grow up. Of course in another interview she had said about all the children and the dragon, but she often said she wanted Arya and Bran to grow up. So all the children in general, Arya and Bran in particular ... He even said that adult characters could not expect Arya to enter puberty. Elsewhere, "If it has to conquer the world at age 12, so be it." he said.

So age has been a bit of a problem for Martin as well, but he has been looking for a solution to this. The thing is, in a story that he planned in 6 volumes and intends to make a 5-year gap, you cannot imagine that he gave up the plots that he planned and gave signs in the beginning because he could not solve the age problem while 2-3 books are left to the end of the story.

Martin said he would not give up on his plans he had given his hints. If he does it, it would make him a liar, and he is not a liar, he said. 

But don't think that Martin is giving up about this age thing completely.

Quote

Martin now thinks he should somehow put the characters on different timelines so that those who are children can grow up and still detail the adult's activity. He said he had an idea how to do it, but the last time he said he felt trapped when he said what to do, and this time he didn't talk about the details. - GRRM, SSM 2005

BTW, I didn't understand those Tyrion-Aerys and Jon and Arya's 20-year-old interpretation????

As we approach this age issue, we interpret according to today's moral taboos and assume the same in the story, but it is not. This is the wrong approach.

Jon is 16, Arya is 11. In the next book he will be 17, Arya will be 12. Maybe she will be 13 in the end, we do not know.

I argued about this age issue with someone else, so I'm hoping it won't be a problem if I copy and paste my comment.

When we look at the story, love and marriage at a young age often appear in the history of asoiaf. In fact, it occurs in the middle ages of our universe. When you enter adolescence in the Middle Ages, in the laws and social perception of that period, you are young people who have reached the age of marriage, not children. If you try to judge that period with the perception of today, it would be wrong. Perhaps 100 years from now, people will see 18-year-olds marrying is immoral. Maybe the age of marriage for them will be 20. We cannot know this from today. But different periods bring different perceptions and conditions. We have to look at each age from its own window. Historians know this very well. As a result, we have to overcome this age problem in the books. "Imagine their age a few years older," said Martin. I tend to do it like this, I recommend it.

Back to ASOIAF ... In Asoiaf, girls bloom at the age of 12. This indicates that the age of marriage has come. There are also much younger marriages. These are political of course. But these are happening. So the people of westeros accept this in their minds and don't see it as immoral.

For example; When Jon heard about the marriage, did he find it immoral for Ramsay's age to marry 11-year-old Arya? No, he just hated it, but not because of age. Or the marriage of Sansa and Tyrion? In fact, he did not comment on that at all. Well, did Cat or Robb comment on that? Yes, it's true they hated this marriage, but considering the age gap between two years old, did they take it immoral? No. If I remember correctly, one of Alysanne's daughters married an elderly Arryn at a very young age. Nobody called it immoral. The girl Quentyn falls in love with is 12 years old. When she blossomed, the prince wanted to marry her. As far as I remember, the girl had done something of her own to attract the prince's attention.

Arya will be 12 years old in the new book(at least). Martin announced that she was going to go to puberty. Reading Mercy POV, no one cannot tell that Arya is sexually incapable of using her femininity or reaching sexual maturity. 

--

 If you remember Sansa POV, LF told Sansa that marriages with a difference in age could be better. Sansa also accepted this and thought positively. What I want to show here is that such things are acceptable in that culture. How many age difference is there between Rhaegar and Lyanna? At least 5-7. No one commented on Rhaegar's kidnapping a much younger girl, they commented on other matters. So I think you need to put the age issue aside, you're not talking about a valid cultural perception for asoiaf. This is our cultural perception, today's taboo. Today we call anyone who has sex with a 14-year-old girl pedophilia, but there was no such perception 100-150 years ago.

But look, I find it a bit hypocritical to suggest that Arya will have an affair with Gendry when the subject of age is mentioned. "There's a 5 year difference between Jon and Arya, so that can't be!" Then why do people think that Arya might be with a man older than her? Do you know the age difference between Arya and Gendry? 5! Arya and Jon? 5! So? The age difference is an obstacle for Jon and Arya, but ok for Arya and Gendry?

We're not commenting that Jon fell in love with Arya's memory. We say that all these events, these words and actions, are a foreshadowing from the author. Sibling love is of course a taboo. Well, that's the point in the story. Didn't you read Outline? This love between the two is pain for them. Why is that? Because they think of each other as real brothers, when they learn that they are cousins, they relax. This is one of the things that makes this love interesting in the story. (If you can choose the people to fall in love with, tell us your secret. So that nobody will suffer love. :) )

Jon's remembrance of Arya by looking at Ygritte, just You can't interpret because she is his only surviving relative and that Arya is the only positive female figure, it is very meaningless. The fact that these two characters think of each other so often has nothing to do with Melisandre. How did you interpret this, I can't be sure.  Let's say, Melisandre is responsible for this in the 5th book, who is responsible for the other books? This is an unbasic and misinterpretation.

Since the first book, Jon and Arya often think of each other. Arya wishes she would be with Jon while still in KL; Jon wishes the same ... Arya's laughter is the thing  what Jon warms his inside in the cold weather when he left WF. Both think each other in abundance as the text allows. Since Jon learns that Arya is alive and is going to marry Ramsay, he thinks of her more often throughout the book, not because of Melisandre. Do you need someone else to think of someone you love and worry about in your life? Does this make sense? Jon thinks about Arya even as he dies.

Actually, this is a very nice parallel with Jon's dad. Why is that? Rhaegar died for Lyanna, and he was thinking of Lyanna as he died. Jon also died for Arya, and he was thinking of Arya as he died. That's what I call parallelism! We have to admit, this is really a sign. At least it's fair to admit that it's a thought-provoking and remarkable detail.

After all, what's the point of thinking of their each other this way in a fictional story? Shouldn't you think about this? I'm a writer, I don't write too many scenes to show that the two characters to sibling love each other. No one doubts Robb and Jon's love and close bond for each other, but have 40-50 scenes written about the two? No. Why? Because the current number is enough. But if I'm going to write love about two characters, then I'll write 40-50 scenes over 5 books. To give clues to this, I have to do this anyway so when this happens, people shouldn't say "Where did this come from?"

Did I get this positive woman thing wrong? Because this comment sounds more weird. So a really weird comment for me. Please do not take me wrong. Why? We are talking about someone who compares the body of his lover with that of his sister.

Yes, Arya's only "positive" figure in the female character around Jon. Other figures, Cat-Sansa and others ... They treat Jon badly or coldly. This causes Jon's female taste to be women like Arya. Jon likes women who act like Arya. Remember what Jon thinks of Mycella, he doesn't like traditional ladies. This is why Jon felt emotional towards Ygritte and flirted with Val. It is obvious that he likes her. That's why when Jon saw the girl, he immediately remembered Arya, because Ygritte's not only personality but even her hair messiness looks like Arya. But if these women were like other traditional women, they would never be of interest to Jon. Anyway, the taste of male-female of all of us, begins to take shape when we are children.

But I would never compare the body of a man I fell in love with to the bodies of my father or brothers! It's vile! Even this thought bothers me. Normal nobody does that! Did you? Jon falls in love with a woman, has sex with her, and compares that woman's body to Arya's body from the very beginning. No matter where we read these scenes from the story, it's odd and nauseous for everyone. Something really disgusting. :ack:

I guess you think Arya will be headed to RL when she returns? So there is also a "time" problem? I do not think like this. https://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/158500-aryas-return-to-westeros-to-where/ Also, the time problem is more likely to be with Dany, as you would accept that they will both get together halfway through the last book at the earliest (assuming Dance 2 will be between Aegon-Dany). After that, the dawn war… well. Jon has spent more time with Arya in the past, and when she comes back, she will spend more time with Jon in every way. So the relationship between the two already has an infrastructure, it will just turn into something else. 

You are 100% sure that there will be a relationship between Jon and Val, I have never confirmed such a theory. Martin too. A possible relationship between Jon and Dany cannot be a parallel to that of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Whose son is Jon? Rhaegar! Such a comment could have been made if Jon was Ned's son; Ice and fire met again ... But Jon is a Targ. It is both ice and fire. He is Rhaegar's son. If Jon and Arya are together, then it will be the way you say. Rhaegar's son Jon Targ, Arya who looks like Lyanna ... Rhaegar and Lyanna become a continuation of his love.

I understood the basics of your thinking, if I understood correctly what you wrote. But as you will see, I see a lot of empty point in your thinking, so I had objections.

 I'm sorry if I used the wrong word. Thank you.

 

 

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OK, people. Arya and Jon is just gross. They might be a cute couple (ick), but arya will have to be a few years older before she can do, you know, the thing. Jon and Sansa is still gross. I'd rather have a Gendrya. 

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Posted (edited)

Gendry and Sansa is unlikely, because she knows nothing about Gendry. That might change, I don't know, but the incest stuff is just not cool or appealing. (Gagging)

Edited by Jaenara Belarys
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10 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Let's say, Melisandre is responsible for this in the 5th book, who is responsible for the other books? This is an unbasic and misinterpretation.

Well, imagine you're Jon Snow, LC of thr NW, then Melisandre comes to you and tells you Arya's about to show up here. How could you not think about Arya then? Then, when Arya turned out to be Alys, Melisandre tells you that "Hey, what if I send this Mance dude to save your lil sister of yours?" Wouldn't you think of her all the time then? Wouldn't you think of her as you die, since you was just about to head out and save her? Of course you would. That adds no foreshadowing to a possible future romance between the two, if you interpret it this way. That's why I said that Arya was pretty much fading out of Jon, until Melisandre showed up with her visions.

What I think I should tell is that you completely did not take (especially) Val, but neither Daenerys' characters into your reply. But it's whatever. 

In this reply, I really do not want to answer everything, as I feel it pointless, just trying to make the misunderstandings clear.

What I can say in general is that you van't rely on George for very simple reasons:

He's been lying about his progress regarding TWOW so many times. Most of the time, he's just evading a proper answer, because he wants to spoiler nothing. He never ever answered direct questions properly. Telling that he's keeping himself to the same ending regarding relations too is a big spoiler from his part. And I honestly don't believe him, neither his books are supporting him on this.

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