Time and Causality

[Seams]

4 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

However, the imagery that GRRM is creating, where a crow shifts into a black haired woman, could be serving as an allusion to the Morrigan.  A dark haired Celtic goddess of death, who would often change forms to that of a raven or a crow.  As the goddess of death she would often have the task of choosing who would live and who would die in an upcoming battle.  

Nice catch! Love this.

The women who accompany the singer Abel into Winterfell are described as washerwomen. This is also an aspect of the Morrigan.

In this notion of time ripples, I think Theon may play a key role. Bran is able to connect with him through the Winterfell weirwood, it seems. But I am also intrigued that Theon comes into conflict with Old Nan, the ageless storyteller. He remembers this collision just as he is leading the washerwomen to rescue Jeyne Poole from her bridal chamber:

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Theon led the way up the stairs. I have climbed these steps a thousand times before. As a boy he would run up; descending, he would take the steps three at a time, leaping. Once he leapt right into Old Nan and knocked her to the floor. That earned him the worst thrashing he ever had at Winterfell, though it was almost tender compared to the beatings his brothers used to give him back on Pyke. He and Robb had fought many a heroic battle on these steps, slashing at one another with wooden swords. Good training, that; it brought home how hard it was to fight your way up a spiral stair against determined opposition. Ser Rodrik liked to say that one good man could hold a hundred, fighting down.

A couple or three years ago, someone in this forum identified the word "thousand" as a signal that a plot element was a replay of an ancient legend. I'll see if I can find that and provide a link. It had a lot of stuff that could be relevant to this thread.

Edit: I think this may be the discussion of "a thousand years ago" and related phrases. The author was @Macgregor of the North, I'm pretty sure.

Nope! My mistake. This is the discussion with the "a thousand years ago" phrase:

 

[corbon]

9 hours ago, LynnS said:

If I struggle at all, it's because I know that some people will dismiss it out of hand because

 

Just a reminder that just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they dismissed your idea out of hand. Your yourself said that you were struggling to integrate this particular scene as well as the others.

Is it not relevant that Bran's experience waking from a dream back to reality closely mirror's Ned's experience waking from a dream back to reality?

[TheLastWolf]

On 11/7/2020 at 9:37 PM, LynnS said:

Another incident occurs in Tyrion's POV.  I don't think this has anything to do with Bran, although I do think that Martin is clueing the reader into the concepts of the Einstein-Rosen Bridge and what principles he is substituting as magic,  I won't quote the whole text, I'll just summarize.

Tyrion is travelling on the river with Griff and company.  The section of the river they travel is full of ruins.  It's misty and foggy and Ysilla says there is sorcery about.  They pass a stone hand with two fingers rising out of the water, various ruins and they pass beneath the Stone Bridge or the Bridge of Sorrows as it is know.  They pass without incident but as they continue to travel they pass the stone hand again and repeat the journey to the Stone Bridge where they are attacked,  They explain this deja-vu like incident to the unpredictable currents and eddies of the rive returning the travellers to the near-past.

Credit to Ravenous Reader for pointing out that Einstein translates from the German to one stone  and the stone bridge might be a reference to the Einstein- Rosen Bridge.   That was years ago and we didn't know what to make of it.  RR was bang-on.

You can read some of the science here, but I'll just pull out science as magic below:

https://galnet.fandom.com/wiki/Einstein-Rosen_bridge 

So as you approach a black hole, time is warped and subject to unpredictable currents and eddies.   I don't think the stone bridge is a blackhole/white hole but I think we are being pointed in that direction.  The black hole that devours and the white hole that sometimes spits out stuff sounds a bit like the god Trios. 

Martin says that the weirwood and we can add greenseer; don't experience time as men do.  Men experience the river of time moving only in one direction from the present.  The weirwood experience past, present and future simultaneously.  I imagine that as the river of time is stopped or doesn't move and Bran can drop in at any point creating waves and echoes to the past.  Where Bran dreams of his future self  talking to Jon at the Skirling Pass from his future, after Bran has been wed to the tree.  Bran's perception of time cannot have changed until then.

I think of this as memories of the future.  If you have seen Star Trek Discovery season two;  they are using the same device.  Spock has a vision of the seven red bursts before they occur.  Time has become fluid instead of running logically in one direction. 

In Hodor's case he is not only affected in the past, he has a connection to Bran not unlike the direwolves.  Their souls are bonded.  Bran recognizes this when when he asks what would happen if he died.  Would he go into Hodor or Summer.  This soul bonding changes Hodor's perception of time as well.  Hodor is tethered to Bran threaded by electric lines of force. Hodor is afraid at certain time according to Martin.  During electrical storms and when Bran takes over his mind.

The question, I've been asking myself is if Bran's connection to Jon (through Ghost) and potentially to Arya will affect their perception of time as well.  Is there anything in the text that could so indicate?  I think there might be something with Arya.

To be continued... 

 

@LynnS, the perception of time is a recurring theme in this fantastic thread of yours. And yeah, I'm keeping my promise. Ante, back to the topic, in the movie Arrival by Dennis Villenueve the Heptapods give the gift of their language to humanity which allows humans to view time from a different perspective. Amy Adams was fantastic. Arrival deserved a lot more awards than it got. Classic Villenueve. Amy Adam's character in that movie (forgot name sry) has visions about her dying daughter and estranged husband she thinks are past events, but in real were premonitions. So applying that logic to a lot of Asoiaf visions may make sense.

What if the Others aren't bad (GRRM isn't the type to put inherently evil species in his books) and they have a gift for humanity (like with the Heptapod language in Arrival) which the COTF are trying to prevent along with a vengeance seeking Bloodraven? The gift may or may not be related to time. 

More to follow.... 

[TheLastWolf]

@LynnS

Darn! Completely forgot about the Arya/3EC thing which made me enter this topic and promise you to look into it in more detail. Interesting idea you put forth. Arya being 3EC/Quaithe from future warning Dany and trying to mentor Bran (Bloodraven got there first) is nice. But I think Dany herself from the future is a better candidate. Like Terminator or Xmen Days of future past fusion. Elissa Farman too ok. But I'm sold on Meg's Shiera/Quaithe/3EC theory. If you have not noticed already, I took Arya being 3EC and Quaithe while you only proposed her being 3EC. Because I believe both are one and the same. Inseparable. Too many evidence (circumstantial and otherwise) and hints etc. Quaithe obviously a woman. 3EC mentioned as a woman only once or sometimes in AGoT. Bran and Co. just assume Bloodraven is the one. BR or COTF never claimed to be so. Just the last greenseer. GRRM likes to create the illusion of there being many characters while in truth only one is the real identity. Like how Old Nan is either Tanselle, Rohanne Webber or Alyssane Stark. Or how Gerion is Jaqen or Inkpots or dead. Hopefully he'll do the same for this too. Not any new characters too far into the series. 

[LynnS]

9 hours ago, Seams said:

Edit: I think this may be the discussion of "a thousand years ago" and related phrases. The author was @Macgregor of the North, I'm pretty sure.

Nope! My mistake. This is the discussion with the "a thousand years ago" phrase:

Wow! I'm stunned.  McGregor of the North is saying exactly what I have been thinking.  I like the term stable time loop and the idea that stories are old friends that have to be visited from time to time including Meera's story of the Knight of the laughing Tree. I do think that's a stable time loop and Bran has already been there and done that.  It makes me chuckle to  think that Howland Reed is an old friend of Bran's that he is yet to meet. 

I have no difficulty with the idea that  Bran first meets Howland on the Isle of Faces.  Or that Bran is the Laughing Tree, perhaps aiding Howland at the Tourney, in the same way he aids Hodor at the pass.  I think Bran did get the one day he needed to experience being a knight. 

It will be exciting to see if Bran visits more of the old stories, thousands and thousands of years ago in TWOW. 

Thanks for finding these old threads, Seams. 

[LynnS]

4 hours ago, corbon said:

Is it not relevant that Bran's experience waking from a dream back to reality closely mirror's Ned's experience waking from a dream back to reality?

It's not the same,  Ned isn't Bran and he isn't emerging from a dream with the 3EC who must keep a secret identity.

[LynnS]

30 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

But I'm sold on Meg's Shiera/Quaithe/3EC theory

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't saying that the 3EC is Quaithe.  I think that Quaithe might fulfill a parallel role of the 3EC, but for the fiery side of the equation, for Dany.   I think the 3EC for Bran is someone different, more close to the Starks.

[TheLastWolf]

24 minutes ago, LynnS said:

Oh, I'm sorry, I wasn't saying that the 3EC is Quaithe

No you weren't. Just that I'm sold on Megorova's theory bout that. 

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

think that Quaithe might fulfill a parallel role of the 3EC, but for the fiery side of the equation, for Dany

Agreed 

25 minutes ago, LynnS said:

think the 3EC for Bran is someone different, more close to the Starks.

Old Nan? Who might be Alysanne Stark. Or Rohanne Webber (if she isn't the ghost of high heart first). Or Tanselle too tall. Nan is short tho. I'll go with Alysanne Stark. Again Meg's enlightening. 

[LynnS]

5 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

No you weren't. Just that I'm sold on Megorova's theory bout that. 

Agreed 

Old Nan? Who might be Alysanne Stark. Or Rohanne Webber (if she isn't the ghost of high heart first). Or Tanselle too tall. Nan is short tho. I'll go with Alysanne Stark. Again Meg's enlightening. 

I'm saying that the 3EC is someone who is invested in the survival of the pack.  Given Arya's desire to fly as high as the moon and see all the world, in the same way that Bran does, (with the aid of the crow); that the crow could be Arya.  

[TheLastWolf]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm saying that the 3EC is someone who is invested in the survival of the pack.  Given Arya's desire to fly as high as the moon and see all the world, in the same way that Bran does, (with the aid of the crow); that the crow could be Arya.  

Got it 

[CamiloRP]

1 hour ago, LynnS said:

I'm saying that the 3EC is someone who is invested in the survival of the pack.  Given Arya's desire to fly as high as the moon and see all the world, in the same way that Bran does, (with the aid of the crow); that the crow could be Arya.  

I always (well, not always, since my first reread) thought that the 3EC will be a future villain, Euron is a crow's eye, and he has three eyes (a similing eye, a crow's eye and a blood eye) he also seems to be able to send visions and such. But there's evidence for him being visited by the 3EC in his youth, another candidate I like is LF, tho the one I like the most is the 3EC being someone we haven't met yet (or maybe even future Bran) and he has three servants, each of whom are an 'eye'.

Likely Euron, hoping LF, and don't know the third.

This is all very crackpotty and has little evidence tho.

[TheLastWolf]

5 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I always (well, not always, since my first reread) thought that the 3EC will be a future villain, Euron is a crow's eye, and he has three eyes (a similing eye, a crow's eye and a blood eye) he also seems to be able to send visions and such. But there's evidence for him being visited by the 3EC in his youth, another candidate I like is LF, tho the one I like the most is the 3EC being someone we haven't met yet (or maybe even future Bran) and he has three servants, each of whom are an 'eye'.

Likely Euron, hoping LF, and don't know the third.

This is all very crackpotty and has little evidence tho.

Emboldened 

Meg would disagree. And she is very convincing, I can vouch for that at least. She says Euron is 3EC's third eye. That's why the patch. Not coz he's a stereotypical pirate or Nick Fury fan

[LynnS]

14 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

I always (well, not always, since my first reread) thought that the 3EC will be a future villain, Euron is a crow's eye, and he has three eyes (a similing eye, a crow's eye and a blood eye) he also seems to be able to send visions and such. But there's evidence for him being visited by the 3EC in his youth, another candidate I like is LF, tho the one I like the most is the 3EC being someone we haven't met yet (or maybe even future Bran) and he has three servants, each of whom are an 'eye'.

Likely Euron, hoping LF, and don't know the third.

This is all very crackpotty and has little evidence tho.

I'm actually going to get to Euron Blood-Eye when I come to moon doors.  That will be a little later down the road.  I don't think he's the 3EC, but I do think he's an abomination with a 'twin'.   I think Euron's sigil depicts him with a third eye now the blood-eye. He was tested by Bloodraven as a boy and received brain damage when he fell from the cliff.  This made his suceptible (like Hodor) to being skichanged. It's the reason that he is "maddest" of them all.  I believe he has also skinchanged/violated his brothers when they were young.

Can we hold off on Euron a bit longer? 

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I'm actually going to get to Euron Blood-Eye when I come to moon doors.  That will be a little later down the road.  I don't think he's the 3EC, but I do think he's an abomination with a 'twin'.   I think Euron's sigil depicts him with a third eye now the blood-eye. He was tested by Bloodraven as a boy and received brain damage when he fell from the cliff.  This made his suceptible (like Hodor) to being skichanged. It's the reason that he is "maddest" of them all.  I believe he has also skinchanged/violated his brothers when they were young.

ooof

 

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Can we hold off on Euron a bit longer? 

you're the boss

[LynnS]

23 minutes ago, TheLastWolf said:

Emboldened 

Meg would disagree. And she is very convincing, I can vouch for that at least. She says Euron is 3EC's third eye. That's why the patch. Not coz he's a stereotypical pirate or Nick Fury fan

I am a fan of lateral thinking and spit balling.  It's another way of saying brain-storming.  I think it's curious that Euron used to wear either a black patch or a red patch.  Now he doesn't wear any patch and allows all the world to see the blood-eye.  Can we hold off on this discussion for a while.  

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

ooof

I don't know what ooof means, but I hope it doesn't mean I've just punched youor something.....

[CamiloRP]

1 minute ago, LynnS said:

I don't know what ooof means, but I hope it doesn't mean I've just punched youor something.....

kinda like that, some heavy things in that paragraph.

[LynnS]

6 minutes ago, CamiloRP said:

kinda like that, some heavy things in that paragraph.

The Forsaken Chapter creeps the begeezus out of me.  Euron is a thousand times worse than Ramsey.  

[CamiloRP]

Just now, LynnS said:

The Forsaken Chapter creeps the begeezus out of me.  Euron is a thousand times worse than Ramsey.  

no argument here, he's fucking terrifying 

[LynnS]

I've been asked to clarify what I mean by the events at the Skirling Pass.  I'm referring to the Ghost-Jon, Treee-Bran encounter and Bran's dream in the Crypts of Winterfell:

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A Clash of Kings - Bran VII

He remembered who he was all too well; Bran the boy, Bran the broken. Better Bran the beastling. Was it any wonder he would sooner dream his Summer dreams, his wolf dreams? Here in the chill damp darkness of the tomb his third eye had finally opened. He could reach Summer whenever he wanted, and once he had even touched Ghost and talked to Jon. Though maybe he had only dreamed that. He could not understand why Jojen was always trying to pull him back now. Bran used the strength of his arms to squirm to a sitting position. "I have to tell Osha what I saw. Is she here? Where did she go?"

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A Clash of Kings - Jon VII

A weirwood.

It seemed to sprout from solid rock, its pale roots twisting up from a myriad of fissures and hairline cracks. The tree was slender compared to other weirwoods he had seen, no more than a sapling, yet it was growing as he watched, its limbs thickening as they reached for the sky. Wary, he circled the smooth white trunk until he came to the face. Red eyes looked at him. Fierce eyes they were, yet glad to see him. The weirwood had his brother's face. Had his brother always had three eyes?

Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.

He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.

Don't be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this. And the tree reached down and touched him.

When I first read this passage, I wondered how Bran could be communicating with Jon at the Skirling Pass before he had left the Crypts of Winterfell.  I thought it had something to do with the small but significant plot point that Martin had devised about the Wall.  Which turns out to have been that warging is blocked by the Wall if you are separated from your bond animal by the Wall.

It was Bran appearing as a tree and growing in fast forward when I started to think we were being show something about time.  More specifically, how a weirwood/greenseer experiences time.  It's Bloodraven who tells us that time is a river moving in only one direction for men.  But for the tree, time is fluid and past, present and future exist as one state.

This can't occur until Bran is wed to the tree.  In the Crypts, Bran dream of touching Ghost and talking to Jon.  But this is in backwards order to Jon's experience where Bran speaks to him first and then touches Ghost. 

Now that Martin has confirmed that there are ripples of events in the future that reach back in time, we can consider Bran's dream as a ripple from his future, or a memory of the future if you like.  By the time Bran reaches Bloodraven's cave,  Jon is long gone from the Skirling Pass.  So this is an event that is yet to happen in Bran's future.

I have maintained that this is an example that we are given, not only of Bran's powers but also how the tree-Bran experiences time.

@TsarGrey