History in Books

[SeanF]

1 hour ago, Zorral said:

The research the author shows at the back of the book says rather ... otherwise.  Britain most certainly didn't want those men to be shipped back to France to fight them again.

Though, yes, the average Spaniard was not happy with French soldiers, but there were others, who had a whole lot more power, with other agendas.   Fogs of war.

Then I must read it, because all the mainstream historians like Esdaile, Oman, Gates, place the responsibility on the Junta Central.

[Zorral]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Then I must read it, because all the mainstream historians like Esdaile, Oman, Gates, place the responsibility on the Junta Central.

Well, there was the members of the Spanish government that was more than happy to collaborate with Napoleon, and they didn't just disappear, despite the Madrid uprising, or that Bourbon dickhead removing him and his court to Bayonne.  I think it was people like that, who also were playing with the Brits.  But, you know, I do not KNOW.  And this is fiction!  Nevertheless I put nothing past any political/military/power group anytime, anywhere, and doing an excellent job of disappearing/covering up what they have done.

Maybe you can just find the Afterword somehow online and read that, and that way skip the novel part?  The author's husband is retired military officer too, btw -- I keep thinking Marines, but I'm likely misremembering that.

[Zorral]

Renault, Mary (1978) The Praise Singer.  Unlike her other historicals, I hadn’t read this one.

Historical figure, lyrical poet (i.e. he recites/sings with a lyre) the renowned, prized winning Simonides of Keos, is the narrator and witness to his times, later 6th C. B.C., though not the, or, a, protagonist of his times, which are the glorious era of Athens’ Golden Age, and after the Persian destruction of Ionia (not the same as Hellenica – Greece). Simonides retells the period from his retirement/self-exile on Sicily. This period ends with the assassination that heralds Athens descent into the Age of Tyrants, though he has many years yet of work and fame still ahead of him -- but not, disappointingly, covered in the novel. These are the times too when oracles, poetry, histories, performances, previously recalled entirely by memory arts and skills, are transitioning to being written down as well as spoken, and memory skill begins to be lost.  Unlike many of Renault’s previous narrators, Simonides is entirely heterosexual.

Ripped right through this in about 4 nights on my tablet in an hour of reading before transitioning to print book, Van Loo, Bart; trans. Nancy forest-Flier (2019 in the Netherlands; 2023 UK) The Burgundian: A Vanished Empire – A History of 1111 Years and One Day. The translation is terrific, though whether the author's style in his own language is as breezy as this is, I can't know.  Still, it says something that in a book that is telling me 1111 + 1 day history of a small, though dense region, that it is only page 68 of 514, and we're deep in the 14th C, and the Bubonic Plague's first great outbreak has already passed.  I would loved to have had many more pages covering Gebeicca, Gundahar, Gundioc, Chiperic, Gundobad, Sigismund and Gundomar, not to mention Clovis and Charlemagne!

After reading a while in this history, it's time for our current read aloud to each other before lights out, Waldstreicher, David. T. (2023) The Odyssey of Phillis Wheatley: A Poet's Journeys Through American Slavery and Independence. There is only so much of this we can read at a time, because this is, ultimately a very sad and tragic tale, whether or not she died a free woman.  Think about it, in Boston of her day, in which it was illegal for a woman to live outside 'a household,', being young, Black, without relatives, what does it mean to be free then?

On workout days, I'm currently listening to yet another work by this author, 

Holland, Tom (2012) In the Shadow of the Sword: The Birth of Islam and the Rise of the Global Arab Empire. NYPL audio download. Great workout listening. The Guardian reviewer really hated this book as written by an ignorant, incompetent clod, though other reviewers praise it highly.  the deeper into the book I get, the more impressed with it I am -- and I've read a variety of histories of the origins of Islam and histories of the Arab empire(s).

Finally! Something that explains Sassinds, Persians and Parthians.  But not enough.  I also appreciate his appreciation of the Late Antiquity – 6th Century as a time of vitality, a recreation of the world vitally teeming with new ideas, instead of an abrupt shut down of classical learning and achievement.  He also tells me something I should have thought about before but never have: the 6th century finished the world for paganism, i.e. multiple gods, and instead turns the world to monotheist empire building – dreaming, via Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  One God, One World, “the emergence of universal empire as an object of political endeavor, including the implicit notion that this would entail the proper ordering of humanity as a whole.” Others have dreamed that too, including Alexander and earlier Persians – but the monotheist part is ‘new.’

So far it has also told me the origin of "Saracen", which came out the way "Rome" designated the Sassinds.

Quote

“By the era of what has come to be called, thanks to the work of Princeton historian Peter Brown, late antiquity—the 5th, 6th, and 7th centuries—we can see that neither Rome nor Persia, neither West nor East, had managed to prevail. Their ongoing and now millennial struggle took place along a relatively fixed border running from Egypt through Syria and the Levant.”  https://claremontreviewofbooks.com/to-rule-the-world/

 

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Zorral said:

Renault, Mary (1978) The Praise Singer.  Unlike her other historicals, I hadn’t read this one.

Historical figure, lyrical poet (i.e. he recites/sings with a lyre) the renowned, prized winning Simonides of Keos, is the narrator and witness to his times, later 6th C. B.C., though not the, or, a, protagonist of his times, which are the glorious era of Athens’ Golden Age, and after the Persian destruction of Ionia (not the same as Hellenica – Greece). Simonides retells the period from his retirement/self-exile on Sicily. This period ends with the assassination that heralds Athens descent into the Age of Tyrants, though he has many years yet of work and fame still ahead of him -- but not, disappointingly, covered in the novel. These are the times too when oracles, poetry, histories, performances, previously recalled entirely by memory arts and skills, are transitioning to being written down as well as spoken, and memory skill begins to be lost.  Unlike many of Renault’s previous narrators, Simonides is entirely heterosexual.

Ripped right through this in about 4 nights on my tablet in an hour of reading before transitioning to print book, Van Loo, Bart; trans. Nancy forest-Flier (2019 in the Netherlands; 2023 UK) The Burgundian: A Vanished Empire – A History of 1111 Years and One Day. The translation is terrific, though whether the author's style in his own language is as breezy as this is, I can't know.  Still, it says something that in a book that is telling me 1111 + 1 day history of a small, though dense region, that it is only page 68 of 514, and we're deep in the 14th C, and the Bubonic Plague's first great outbreak has already passed.  I would loved to have had many more pages covering Gebeicca, Gundahar, Gundioc, Chiperic, Gundobad, Sigismund and Gundomar, not to mention Clovis and Charlemagne!

After reading a while in this history, it's time for our current read aloud to each other before lights out, Waldstreicher, David. T. (2023) The Odyssey of Phillis Wheatley: A Poet's Journeys Through American Slavery and Independence. There is only so much of this we can read at a time, because this is, ultimately a very sad and tragic tale, whether or not she died a free woman.  Think about it, in Boston of her day, in which it was illegal for a woman to live outside 'a household,', being young, Black, without relatives, what does it mean to be free then?

On workout days, I'm currently listening to yet another work by this author, 

Holland, Tom (2012) In the Shadow of the Sword: The Birth of Islam and the Rise of the Global Arab Empire. NYPL audio download. Great workout listening. The Guardian reviewer really hated this book as written by an ignorant, incompetent clod, though other reviewers praise it highly.  the deeper into the book I get, the more impressed with it I am -- and I've read a variety of histories of the origins of Islam and histories of the Arab empire(s).

Finally! Something that explains Sassinds, Persians and Parthians.  But not enough.  I also appreciate his appreciation of the Late Antiquity – 6th Century as a time of vitality, a recreation of the world vitally teeming with new ideas, instead of an abrupt shut down of classical learning and achievement.  He also tells me something I should have thought about before but never have: the 6th century finished the world for paganism, i.e. multiple gods, and instead turns the world to monotheist empire building – dreaming, via Judaism, Christianity and Islam.  One God, One World, “the emergence of universal empire as an object of political endeavor, including the implicit notion that this would entail the proper ordering of humanity as a whole.” Others have dreamed that too, including Alexander and earlier Persians – but the monotheist part is ‘new.’

So far it has also told me the origin of "Saracen", which came out the way "Rome" designated the Sassinds.

 

What struck me about Holland’s book is that the distinction between Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians in the 7th century was much less clear cut than it is today. The boundaries of these religions were fuzzy.

[Zorral]

25 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What struck me about Holland’s book is that the distinction between Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians in the 7th century was much less clear cut than it is today. The boundaries of these religions were fuzzy.

Ya!  Not to mention the boundaries between them and quite a few of earlier religions such as Manicheism,  Zoroastrianism, a/k/a the religion of the Fire Stallion, and so on and so forth.  Just like the geographical boundaries were fuzzy and non-existent entirely in many places -- and what the Arabs, and Mohammad learned, working for so long for the Romans in these regions.  I rather love that Holland states right out that much of the Quran is 'plagiarism,' as So Many sacred texts are -- when not fabricated out of the fabricators' imaginations.  And -- all this about Mecca! 

Holland does an incredibly patient, careful job of assembling all the historical building blocks, going back as far as he can.  We're over half way through Shadow of the Sword before we get to, actual, you know, Islam! 

Infuriated Some all right! It would have been interesting to see T.E. Lawrence's response to Holland, but that wasn't possible and wouldn't be even if he hadn't died young.

[SeanF]

On 6/8/2023 at 9:53 PM, Zorral said:

The research the author shows at the back of the book says rather ... otherwise.  Britain most certainly didn't want those men to be shipped back to France to fight them again.

Though, yes, the average Spaniard was not happy with French soldiers, but there were others, who had a whole lot more power, with other agendas.   Fogs of war.

I'm pleased to say that I was awarded 73%, and a Distinction.

If you like, I could PM a copy to you.

[Zorral]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

I'm pleased to say that I was awarded 73%, and a Distinction.

If you like, I could PM a copy to you.

Hooray!  Congratulations.

I'd be honored if you pm-ed me a copy.  Thank you!  I shall learn things!

[Zorral]

On 6/12/2023 at 3:48 PM, SeanF said:

Holland’s book is that the distinction between Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Zoroastrians in the 7th century was much less clear cut than it is today.

BTW -- Among the constant surprises in Holland's book, regarding matters even that I have thought about, his discussion in particular about the chariot race political factions in both Latin Rome and (Greek Rome) Constantinople was illuminating.  Of course, in Constantinople the political factions were also religious doctrine factions, unlike in Latin Rome. But his observations that these alignments, along with rioting and insurrections occurring around them, even in the stadia, show up when the populace no longer has any path to influence the ruling elite, or to be a part of the administration.  Makes one think of the riots that happen ever more frequently around sports events in our own times now.  Even when a home team wins a big event, ever more often now the fans' celebration turns into a riot of destruction.

[SeanF]

On 6/15/2023 at 5:22 PM, Zorral said:

BTW -- Among the constant surprises in Holland's book, regarding matters even that I have thought about, his discussion in particular about the chariot race political factions in both Latin Rome and (Greek Rome) Constantinople was illuminating.  Of course, in Constantinople the political factions were also religious doctrine factions, unlike in Latin Rome. But his observations that these alignments, along with rioting and insurrections occurring around them, even in the stadia, show up when the populace no longer has any path to influence the ruling elite, or to be a part of the administration.  Makes one think of the riots that happen ever more frequently around sports events in our own times now.  Even when a home team wins a big event, ever more often now the fans' celebration turns into a riot of destruction.

Dealt with superbly in Guy Gavriel Kay’s Sarantine Mosaic duology.

[Zorral]

8 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Dealt with superbly in Guy Gavriel Kay’s Sarantine Mosaic duology.

I found those books ... anyway, I don't recall that.  (Kay has gotten ever ever ever more problematical for me, with the exception of Tigana.)

As we are having a thunder stormy plus Canadian smoke day here, I can start reading you.  

[Zorral]

@SeanF  I have on my part a stupid question for you.  I'm reading along in your descriptions of the British attitudes about the Spanish in that war ... do you think any of that was left over in the general British mind by the time of the Spanish Civil War of the 1930's and Franco?

That the Spanish army of your period was so bad -- ya, because everything was monarchal, and it was all so corrupt -- there was nothing, no office, no pay, nothing, unless from the MIA Bourbons. A person couldn't even be an artist unless a member of the Royal School of Art -- and essentially all your work was for the Royals, and their friends, for example.  Which also meant that ancient practice, which is still found today, of having a majority of dead-and-gone soldiers on the rosters for whom wages were received, those wages were conveniently stored in a variety of other pockets.  (Surely some of it got into Godoy's pockets?)

And yet, isn't it amazing, how there are always military cohorts, no matter how awful the ruler and the officers may be, who will accomplish astounding deeds of bravery and effectiveness?

 

 

[SeanF]

26 minutes ago, Zorral said:

@SeanF  I have on my part a stupid question for you.  I'm reading along in your descriptions of the British attitudes about the Spanish in that war ... do you think any of that was left over in the general British mind by the time of the Spanish Civil War of the 1930's and Franco?

That the Spanish army of your period was so bad -- ya, because everything was monarchal, and it was all so corrupt -- there was nothing, no office, no pay, nothing, unless from the MIA Bourbons. A person couldn't even be an artist unless a member of the Royal School of Art -- and essentially all your work was for the Royals, and their friends, for example.  Which also meant that ancient practice, which is still found today, of having a majority of dead-and-gone soldiers on the rosters for whom wages were received, those wages were conveniently stored in a variety of other pockets.  (Surely some of it got into Godoy's pockets?)

And yet, isn't it amazing, how there are always military cohorts, no matter how awful the ruler and the officers may be, who will accomplish astounding deeds of bravery and effectiveness?

 

 

I can’t answer much about the civil war.  So far as I can tell, most British people were pro-Republican, but with two big exceptions.

1.  Right Wing Conservatives, who included most of the aristocracy and the Cabinet;

2. Catholics of all classes.  Irish working class Catholics in Belfast, Glasgow and Liverpool were just as committed to the defence of their co-religionists in Spain as English Catholics were.

WRT the Spanish army, in 1808, it was like the British army in 1793.  Incompetent, corrupt, filled with desperate people in the lower ranks.  And yet, in the face of terrible handicaps, it performed miracles.

 

[dog-days]

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

I found those books ... anyway, I don't recall that.  (Kay has gotten ever ever ever more problematical for me, with the exception of Tigana.)

As we are having a thunder stormy plus Canadian smoke day here, I can start reading you.  

Would be interested to read your thoughts on GGK if you have time!

[Zorral]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

2. Catholics of all classes.  Irish working class Catholics in Belfast, Glasgow and Liverpool were just as committed to the defence of their co-religionists in Spain as English Catholics were.

I did know these two points; and the second one held true in the Napoleonic wars -- big plot points in Patrick O'Brian's wonderful series of historicals.

52 minutes ago, dog-days said:

Would be interested to read your thoughts on GGK if you have time!

Don't know if they are of interest, but I'll just try to sum up.

Where I very much appreciated and admired Tigana and Song of Narbonne -- ooops, my fingers just naturally typed that when I was to have dropped the N, and suddenly it was Arbonne, not a real place, not the real language - you see what I mean? My troubles with that book then really rolled with the slavering public sexual displays demanded by the king in the opening pages -- just yuck and NOT BELIEVEABLE, and the author just liked doing it too much, letting us see too much of his own fantasy life, it felt -- TO ME.  Not everyone has that response, probably. After those two novels, the more closely he attempted to tip only a degree from our actual history the less I was able to immerse. What we know of those times and places and the peoples are all so much more vivid and intense than the books. He made everything and everyone way too simple. This may well have started with what I really did know best, even then, his Al-Andalus novel that most people name their favorite even now, The Lions of al-Rassan, for history, culture and language.  I am going to say though, the horse finca in that novel and that family felt very good!

However, I did like very much something he did in Brightness Long Ago, in which a spear carrier gets some narrative space but nobody to whom he matters knows anything about his end.

 

Edited June 16, 2023 by Zorral

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, Zorral said:

I did know these two points; and the second one held true in the Napoleonic wars -- big plot points in Patrick O'Brian's wonderful series of historicals.

Don't know if they are of interest, but I'll just try to sum up.

Where I very much appreciated and admired Tigana and Song of Narbonne -- ooops, my fingers just naturally typed that when I was to have dropped the N, and suddenly it was Arbonne, not a real place, not the real language - you see what I mean? My troubles with that book then really rolled with the slavering public sexual displays demanded by the king in the opening pages -- just yuck and NOT BELIEVEABLE, and the author just liked doing it too much, letting us see too much of his own fantasy life, it felt -- TO ME.  Not everyone has that response, probably. After those two novels, the more closely he attempted to tip only a degree from our actual history the less I was able to immerse.  He made everything way too simple. This may well have started with what I really did know best, even then, his Al-Andalus novel that most people name their favorite even now, The Lions of al-Rassan, for history, culture and language.

 

The French *really* shot themselves in the foot by sacking churches and monasteries and shooting priests.  They thought the priests were to blame for the partidas (not entirely wrong, but also not fully right).

Irish Catholics loathed the English (obviously) but they hated the French far more, once they found out what was happening in Spain and Portugal.  

[Zorral]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The French *really* shot themselves in the foot by sacking churches and monasteries and shooting priests.  They thought the priests were to blame for the partidas (not entirely wrong, but also not fully right).

Irish Catholics loathed the English (obviously) but they hated the French far more, once they found out what was happening in Spain and Portugal.  

I admired your breakdown of the partidas and their leaders in the opening pages, Sean.  I am already learning!  Your style is coming through as clear -- and much easier to read than much writing of this nature.

[SeanF]

6 hours ago, Zorral said:

I admired your breakdown of the partidas and their leaders in the opening pages, Sean.  I am already learning!  Your style is coming through as clear -- and much easier to read than much writing of this nature.

Many thanks.

[Zorral]

It's a holiday here -- Juneteenth -- so I did the incredibly tedious nitty process of downloading your diss to both the tablet and the fone, instead of just having it on the desktop.  It can be the current travel book now.  

[SeanF]

13 hours ago, Zorral said:

It's a holiday here -- Juneteenth -- so I did the incredibly tedious nitty process of downloading your diss to both the tablet and the fone, instead of just having it on the desktop.  It can be the current travel book now.  

Thanks.  I wouldn’t know how to do that.

[Zorral]

10 hours ago, SeanF said:

I wouldn’t know how to do that.

Me either, which is why I described it as incredibly tedious and nitty.  It involved having to use my password for my Gmail account/Google on both fone and tablet -- something I have resisted doing all along for Many Reasons.  But I wanted so much to have the advantage of being able to read this when I had the moments, instead of books downloaded from my library. Both of my laptops have essentially died; fone and tablet are both more portable than they anyway, and my work set-ups are desktops, both at home and library.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Zorral