The Wheel of Time TV Show 5: Eye of the Fandom [BOOK SPOILERS]

[A True Kaniggit]

4 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm fine with Lan and Nynaeve. I can actually see what they find attractive in each other, and the way Nynaeve matures and takes an active hand in allowing Lan to do his duty was one of the better bits of writing RJ did. 

Poor Lan. Indoctrinated since infancy that he has to fight for a country that was claimed by the Blight when he was a baby.

If the people who raised him actually wanted him to be a king, you'd think they would have set up a "New Malkier" for him to rule in the unclaimed lands between Shienar and Cairhein. It could've been a rallying point for all the Malkieri refugees before they scattered across the Westlands.

I believe the Shienarians would've loved to have such a kingdom to their south.

[fionwe1987]

27 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Poor Lan. Indoctrinated since infancy that he has to fight for a country that was claimed by the Blight when he was a baby.

If the people who raised him actually wanted him to be a king, you'd think they would have set up a "New Malkier" for him to rule in the unclaimed lands between Shienar and Cairhein. It could've been a rallying point for all the Malkieri refugees before they scattered across the Westlands.

I believe the Shienarians would've loved to have such a kingdom to their south.

Well, they were 5 bodyguards. Setting up a whole new Kingdom might have been beyond them.

Also, while not located where you pointed to, people did try to reclaim Malkier. We know a lot of Malkieri Aes Sedai died as part of various schemes to do so. I wonder how many of the more capable Aes Sedai gave themselves up on this fruitless cause, and so ended up missing the Last Battle. 

And then there's the New Spring storyline with Edyen Arrel. So Lan had plenty of reasons not to dream that dream.

ETA: I'm not sure yet what I feel about the Al'naito piece they released from the soundtrack.

It has some character, I'll give it that. Anyone else listen to it?

Al'Naito means for the flame or of the flame.

The Flame of Tar Valon?

[A True Kaniggit]

18 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Well, they were 5 bodyguards. Setting up a whole new Kingdom might have been beyond them.

Also, while not located where you pointed to, people did try to reclaim Malkier. We know a lot of Malkieri Aes Sedai died as part of various schemes to do so. I wonder how many of the more capable Aes Sedai gave themselves up on this fruitless cause, and so ended up missing the Last Battle. 

And then there's the New Spring storyline with Edyen Arrel. So Lan had plenty of reasons not to dream that dream.

ETA: I'm not sure yet what I feel about the Al'naito piece they released from the soundtrack.

It has some character, I'll give it that. Anyone else listen to it?

Yeah, they tried to reclaim Malkier, which had been consumed by the Blight.

They should've set up a new home for their people south of Shienar. I think the only thing we really hear about that land is Cairhien conquered it once long ago, but couldn't maintain control over it. Now it's unclaimed.

A few hundred thousand Malkieri refugees could've easily built a new country there. And Shienar would've loved having an ally to the south.

[fionwe1987]

6 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Yeah, they tried to reclaim Malkier, which had been consumed by the Blight.

They should've set up a new home for their people south of Shienar. I think the only thing we really hear about that land is Cairhien conquered it once long ago, but couldn't maintain control over it. Now it's unclaimed.

A few hundred thousand Malkieri refugees could've easily built a new country there. And Shienar would've loved having an ally to the south.

Who's financing this new country? Shienar?

[A True Kaniggit]

9 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Who's financing this new country? Shienar?

Shienar/The White Tower.

To get them established. 
 

Long term thinking, it would have been worth it for the war against the Shadow. 
 

Edit: Hell, probably the other 3 borderland nations as well. 

[fionwe1987]

10 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Shienar/The White Tower.

To get them established. 
 

Long term thinking, it would have been worth it for the war against the Shadow. 
 

Edit: Hell, probably the other 3 borderland nations as well. 

Sure, but they seems way too idealistic. Instead you got what normally happens. They took refuge in bordering countries, maintaining what scraps of identity they could.

[A True Kaniggit]

4 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

Sure, but they seems way too idealistic. Instead you got what normally happens. They took refuge in bordering countries, maintaining what scraps of identity they could.

Meh. I can always just blame the Black Ajah for stopping it from happening. 

[fionwe1987]

3 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Meh. I can always just blame the Black Ajah for stopping it from happening. 

They were busy hunting the Dragon Reborn, otherwise I'm sure they'd have taken up this cause instead.

[A True Kaniggit]

2 minutes ago, fionwe1987 said:

They were busy hunting the Dragon Reborn, otherwise I'm sure they'd have taken up this cause instead.

Isn’t that 25 or so years after the fall of Malkier?

[fionwe1987]

7 minutes ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Isn’t that 25 or so years after the fall of Malkier?

I have no idea why I superimposed those two. You're right. Completely plausible this is what they'd be up to before. Though more likely that they directly contributed to it's fall. That was definitely Darkfriend driven.

[karaddin]

8 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

I'm fine with Lan and Nynaeve. I can actually see what they find attractive in each other, and the way Nynaeve matures and takes an active hand in allowing Lan to do his duty was one of the better bits of writing RJ did. 

Rand and Min makes sense to me too. She really does like him, and he desperately needs her, by the time they get together. 

Perrin and Faile somehow went through all the crazy and ended up healthy? They should clean it up from the books, certainly, but that can stay, as well.

Yeah Lan and Nynaeve is the one that I'd actually be upset if it was cut, it was real and it worked, and it sets up some great moments. I'd also keep Rand and Min, I think the way she's accepted the inevitability of her visions and fate makes her a unique person in Rand's life as he's trying to do the same, while everyone else wants him to avoid parts of it.

P&F I think would be far more palatable if we didn't spend (probably literally) 300-400 pages inside Perrin's head as he angsts over her smell. Simply moving us outside his head gives the show a huge leg up on improving this one.

And Elayne+ Avi could definitely work, they've got more in common and more chemistry than either do with Rand.

[A True Kaniggit]

12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

 I think the way she's accepted the inevitability of her visions and fate makes her a unique person in Rand's life as he's trying to do the same, while everyone else wants him to avoid parts of it.

Rand's fate? What fate? "Blood on the rocks......"

Blah...... I better move this to the Literature thread.

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, A True Kaniggit said:

Rand's fate? What fate? "Blood on the rocks......"

Blah...... I better move this to the Literature thread.

Nothing that involved lol. I just meant "being the dragon". He accepts that's who he is and what he needs to become while everyone else is still in denial or acting like he can do it half hearted while staying the same Rand.

Min understands bowing to prophecy as you can't run away from it. Now Rand makes a lot of mistakes from that viewpoint, but at the core "I can't stay the same" it's true, and even the parts that he gets wrong don't undercut Min being the person who understands what that's like emotionally.

[karaddin]

Also that he's a man who can channel, which he knows will make him mad, but he can't afford to try not channel because he's the dragon. That's another part of the "clear from early" fate that he accepts while the others don't really. I feel like that colours Egwene's attitude towards him right till the end, even as she knows he has to.

[Scott_N]

10 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Yeah, the best way I can think to describe it was that it was directed almost like a stage play. Which isn't bad...on stage. On camera it comes off way too melodramatic. Though as you say, it might land better in the context of the whole episode.

Yeah, a bit hammy really. I had hoped for a different tone; that (very limited) piece of storytelling felt a bit juvenile but hopefully it is not indicative of the show as a whole.

[fionwe1987]

8 hours ago, karaddin said:

Also that he's a man who can channel, which he knows will make him mad, but he can't afford to try not channel because he's the dragon. That's another part of the "clear from early" fate that he accepts while the others don't really. I feel like that colours Egwene's attitude towards him right till the end, even as she knows he has to.

Hmm. I dunno that it does the same way. She never judges him for channeling. Early on, before she knows he's the Dragon, she is worried about him, and worried the Aes Sedai will gentle him. After, she's the one who refuses to accept that women can't teach men blindly, and tries to help. She isn't able to, of course, but it's pretty clear she's not just accepted that he can channel but that he needs to and needs to do it well. She's always uncomfortable about the taint and being touched by saidin, of course. That's the part she doesn't connect with, that he needs to live with that constantly. 

 

 

[fionwe1987]

11 hours ago, karaddin said:

Yeah Lan and Nynaeve is the one that I'd actually be upset if it was cut, it was real and it worked, and it sets up some great moments. I'd also keep Rand and Min, I think the way she's accepted the inevitability of her visions and fate makes her a unique person in Rand's life as he's trying to do the same, while everyone else wants him to avoid parts of it.

Yes, but her view isn't as fatalistic as Rand's, which is why she's good for him. 

I'm generally not a huge fan of the "accept your fate" theme we have in WoT. It's had enough when it drives action consciously, like with Min and Rand. But at other times, glimpses of the future, or Prophesies, often end up being less about predicting the future than causing it. Like, for instance ,Egwene does her third Accepted test. Which is explicitly not even meant to be her actual future. But she's a Green in that test, and she seems to just buy that wholesale and never question if that's the perfect fit for her.

Same with a lot of them. Mat does struggle a lot with it, which is why he seems more human, sometimes, if a shitty tool of a human who needs to be given a few kicks for good measure. 

Quote

P&F I think would be far more palatable if we didn't spend (probably literally) 300-400 pages inside Perrin's head as he angsts over her smell. Simply moving us outside his head gives the show a huge leg up on improving this one.

Very true. 

Quote

And Elayne+ Avi could definitely work, they've got more in common and more chemistry than either do with Rand.

Aviendha had reasonable chemistry with Rand, even if their whole relationship had a very angsty vibe to start with. 

Elayne and Rand is what I don't get. Not that they were attracted and spent some time together. Just that that turned to deep abiding love..based on what, exactly? 

Aviendha and Elayne, on the other hand, delivers spent time getting to know each other because they figured that if Min's vision was to come true, they might as well make it work. But I feel that in the process, they develop a lot more chemistry and the show can easily turn that to romance. 

[karaddin]

2 hours ago, fionwe1987 said:

Hmm. I dunno that it does the same way. She never judges him for channeling. Early on, before she knows he's the Dragon, she is worried about him, and worried the Aes Sedai will gentle him. After, she's the one who refuses to accept that women can't teach men blindly, and tries to help. She isn't able to, of course, but it's pretty clear she's not just accepted that he can channel but that he needs to and needs to do it well. She's always uncomfortable about the taint and being touched by saidin, of course. That's the part she doesn't connect with, that he needs to live with that constantly. 

I haven't reread in a long time so I'm not even sure exactly what I'm thinking, which doesn't help with making a cogent argument lol. I think it's that last part really, that her discomfort with the taint weighs in their relationship in a way that makes her unable to trust him, because her judgement is unclouded by the taint.

[fionwe1987]

29 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I haven't reread in a long time so I'm not even sure exactly what I'm thinking, which doesn't help with making a cogent argument lol. I think it's that last part really, that her discomfort with the taint weighs in their relationship in a way that makes her unable to trust him, because her judgement is unclouded by the taint.

Possible. But she's also the one who hangs around him longest seeing the madness seep in. She sees him talking to Lews Therin multiple times, or randomly saying something in the Old Tongue, or mentioning something from the Age of Legends. 

But her mistrust of him seems less to do with that than seeing that he isn't handling leadership well. 

Rand gets much better holding that in, later. Not with Min, and I think Min is great for him because she goes in knowing what's coming. Though of course, no one really had any clue what shape that would take, and what to do about it. So I guess there was plenty of wishful thinking involved. 

[fionwe1987]

Anyone else see the NYCC panel? I was fascinated to see Rosamund Pike point to the Warder bond as something unique in WoT. That thought never even crossed my mind, but it's a cool exploration of male-female relationships, and it does, in the books, span a fairly wide spectrum of types of relationships, and we also see the potential for abuse and harm.

It looks like that's something they'll be leaning heavily on.