King of the Board. B+A=?

[AlaskanSandman]

So for fun, lets discuss a theory of the King of the Board, @Ran. Mr. Elio Garcia and Linda Garcia.

 

What are the odds of Brandon and Ashara Dayne? What would it mean to the plot? Was there time for them to father a kid? 

Elio doesn't likely have the time to discuss this, nor with his insight now, may he be able to.

That does not prohibit us though from discussing the possibility of Ashara and Brandon. Something I don't see talked about on the boards much.

Pros and Cons, let me know your thoughts. As they generally seem to think Jon is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, this would mean Daenerys is the child of Ashara Dayne and Brandon Stark.

 

[Corvo the Crow]

 

 

A few years ago, I remember seeing discussions where people assumed the "Stark" was Brandon and from what we see of Ned, and what we know of Brandon from Barbrey, I can see why and could've agreed but... Why over a decade and a half after both of their deaths -or let's say "deaths" as Ashara has, as everybody knows, faked her death and is Septa Lemore and also Jyana and  also Quathie(who is also Shiera btw) and also Sweets, doing round trips around planetos with different personas- that even members of House Dayne think it was Ned and not Brandon? Ned wasn't supposed to marry her in the first place so no harm in his honor, Ashara is "dishonored" either way whether it's Brandon or Ned and Brandon is dead and gone, he died before even marrying to Cat so no point in hiding that was him either as it has no effect on him and with a practical approach, if it would be harming his honor, Ned coming out and saying "no it wasn't me" is the most logical thing if it was Brandon and if it was Ned but nobody knew besides Ashara which Stark it was, again, I can see a person with less honor than Ned pinning it on Brandon.

 

Pros: What we know of Brandon

Cons: Brandon asking Ashara and not someone else to dance with Ned, it must have meant something to Ned. No point in Daynes hiding it was Brandon. No point in Ned taking the fall for his brother, especially not after he was dead.

Also these two quotes:

Quote

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature."

 

Would Ned, after this talk with Lyanna, would still cover for his brother long after his death? I think not. He says yes this happened but it was before betrothal, but in his brother's case it was not.

 

Quote

She finished for him. "… crown prince, and heir to the Iron Throne. And I was only twelve when my father promised me to your brother Brandon."

That brought a bitter twist to Ned's mouth. "Brandon. Yes. Brandon would know what to do. He always did. It was all meant for Brandon. You, Winterfell, everything. He was born to be a King's Hand and a father to queens. I never asked for this cup to pass to me."

"Perhaps not," Catelyn said, "but Brandon is dead, and the cup has passed, and you must drink from it, like it or not."

What cup did he want?

 

Edit: Also while I think love may have been possible, Ashara need not have loved Ned. Ned would be a good catch for any Westerosi higborn lady. Should Brandon die without legitimate children, and let's admit it was quite likely with his hot headedness, he would get the North, if he only gets daughters or none of his sons survive, Ned's sons would marry with Brandon's daughters and be lords of the North And even this doesn't happen, Ned is the second son of a LP, so may expect to get his own keep anyway.

Quote

"One day, Bran, you will be Robb's bannerman, holding a keep of your own for your brother and your king, and justice will fall to you. When that day comes, you must take no pleasure in the task, but neither must you look away. A ruler who hides behind paid executioners soon forgets what death is."

It would be even more so for Ashara who is of the house Dayne from Dorne

Quote

"If? The word is when. Dorne is the least populous of the Seven Kingdoms. It pleased the Young Dragon to make all our armies larger when he wrote that book of his, so as to make his conquest that much more glorious, and it has pleased us to water the seed he planted and let our foes think us more powerful than we are, but a princess ought to know the truth. Valor is a poor substitute for numbers. Dorne cannot hope to win a war against the Iron Throne, not alone. And yet that may well be what you have given us. Are you proud?" The prince did not allow her time to answer. "What am I to do with you, Arianne?"

 

The Daynes of Starfall are one of the most ancient houses in the Seven Kingdoms, though their fame largely rests on their ancestral sword, called Dawn, and the men who wielded it. Its origins are lost to legend, but it seems likely that the Daynes have carried it for thousands of years. Those who have had the honor of examining it say it looks like no Valyrian steel they know, being pale as milkglass but in all other respects it seems to share the properties of Valyrian blades, being incredibly strong and sharp.

 

Dayne territory is mountains and we don't know of any precious mines and while they may still be relatively strong in Dorne Dorne itself is the weakest kingdom anyway.

 

 

[norwaywolf123]

What did or did not transpire between Brandon and Ashara means nought to the story. Whether something transpired between Ned and Ashara also means nought. The main plot function for Ashara is be a red herring for Jon Snow parentage. Is he the son of Ned and Ashara, or is he the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar? The story also adds color to the world of ice and fire.

[norwaywolf123]

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Would Ned, after this talk with Lyanna, would still cover for his brother long after his death? I think not. He says yes this happened but it was before betrothal, but in his brother's case it was not.

If anything transpired between Brandon and Ashara, it is not certain that Ned would know.

2 hours ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Ned is the second son of a LP, so may expect to get his own keep anyway.

How often does a son aside from the firstborn get his own keep? Daemon Blackfyre got one, but it appears he was the only of Aegon the unworthys children to do so, except Dareon his firstborn. Robert granted his brothers lands, but that was under extraordinary circumstances. He had just won a war, and thus gained new lands. These are exceptions to the rule, which is that for the most part, only the firstborn son inherits. Tywin was the only one of Tytos children to inherit a lordship. Though he provided generous inheritances for all his children.

 

[The Bard of Banefort]

It seems very likely to me that Allyria Dayne is Brandon and Ashara’s daughter. Most people don’t have siblings twenty years younger than them.

[Khal Rhaego Targaryen]

For me it's more possible brandon+lyanna than brandon+Ashara

Whenever I think about the stories of jaime and cersei as children and how they were inseparable, I remember that there is something similar in the relationship between brandon and lyanna. Could jaime and cersei be a mirror for brandon and lyanna?

[Corvo the Crow]

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

If anything transpired between Brandon and Ashara, it is not certain that Ned would know.

True, but he can step up and say "I had no relations with that woman, Ashara", which he doesn't.

 

1 hour ago, norwaywolf123 said:

How often does a son aside from the firstborn get his own keep?

It doesn't happen often and you can say it's the exception, not the rule, but when possible, we see some houses doing it, like Osgrey have done and Starks of old with Wolf's Den. There are plenty of Arryn cadets lying around too, according to LF. Ned says Bran, His second son, will get his own so Ned, himself a second son, was likely going to get his own as well. Talking about Lannisters as a side note, they are rich but Westerlands is a small area and I don't think Lannisters had extra keeps lying around to give and it seems not much land either. Lannisport is south of CR and only about a mile away and the land they give to Barristan is to the north of Lannisport, by the sea. I think it's usually the constraints of gold to build a keep, not land to give away that prevents the more powerful houses but in Lannister's case it's the opposite. However, once the chance arises they immediately get some cadets.

Quote

Lord Varys spoke, gentler than the others. "We are not unmindful of your service, good ser. Lord Tywin Lannister has generously agreed to grant you a handsome tract of land north of Lannisport, beside the sea, with gold and men sufficient to build you a stout keep, and servants to see to your every need."

 

Lann the Clever supposedly lived to the age of 312, and sired a hundred bold sons and a hundred lissome daughters, all fair of face, clean of limb, and blessed with hair "as golden as the sun." But such tales aside, the histories suggest that the early Lannisters were fertile as well as fair, for many names began to appear in the chronicles, and within a few generations Lann's descendants had grown so numerous that even Casterly Rock could not contain all of them. Rather than tunnel out new passages in the stone, some sons and daughters from lesser branches of the house left to make their homes in a village a scant mile away. The land was fertile, the sea teemed with fish, and the site they had chosen had an excellent natural harbor. Soon enough the village grew into a town, then a city: Lannisport.

 

 

1 hour ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

It seems very likely to me that Allyria Dayne is Brandon and Ashara’s daughter. Most people don’t have siblings twenty years younger than them.

That's one reason I think Allyria is Ashara's daughter, another being Barristan's stroy about a pregnancy and a daughter. I think it's Ned, not Brandon though, because even Edric Dayne says it was Ned who fell in love with Ashara. Brandon is indeed the more likely candidate given their personalities etc. but, why hide that it was Brandon and claim Ned did it? 

[Odej]

53 minutes ago, Khal Rhaego Targaryen said:

For me it's more possible brandon+lyanna than brandon+Ashara

Whenever I think about the stories of jaime and cersei as children and how they were inseparable, I remember that there is something similar in the relationship between brandon and lyanna. Could jaime and cersei be a mirror for brandon and lyanna?

There's nothing in the books that suggest Lyanna and Brandon were close like Jaime and Cersei. What it's said is they both shared "the wolf blood" and loved ride. Brandon was fostered at Barrowton so he and Lyanna didn't spend a lot time together growing up. Lyanna seems to be more close to Benjen since they both were raised together. Bran even saw they playing with swords in one of his vision.

[The Bard of Banefort]

51 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

True, but he can step up and say "I had no relations with that woman, Ashara", which he doesn't.

 

It doesn't happen often and you can say it's the exception, not the rule, but when possible, we see some houses doing it, like Osgrey have done and Starks of old with Wolf's Den. There are plenty of Arryn cadets lying around too, according to LF. Ned says Bran, His second son, will get his own so Ned, himself a second son, was likely going to get his own as well. Talking about Lannisters as a side note, they are rich but Westerlands is a small area and I don't think Lannisters had extra keeps lying around to give and it seems not much land either. Lannisport is south of CR and only about a mile away and the land they give to Barristan is to the north of Lannisport, by the sea. I think it's usually the constraints of gold to build a keep, not land to give away that prevents the more powerful houses but in Lannister's case it's the opposite. However, once the chance arises they immediately get some cadets.

 

 

That's one reason I think Allyria is Ashara's daughter, another being Barristan's stroy about a pregnancy and a daughter. I think it's Ned, not Brandon though, because even Edric Dayne says it was Ned who fell in love with Ashara. Brandon is indeed the more likely candidate given their personalities etc. but, why hide that it was Brandon and claim Ned did it? 

If he doesn’t deny it, then that provides a smoke screen to protect Jon, just like rumors of him and Wylla do. It would also explain why he was so angry when Cat asked about Ashara, because Ned had to besmirch his own reputation because of what his reckless siblings did: Lyanna running off with Rhaegar, Brandon fathering children on women he hardly knew. 

[Corvo the Crow]

13 hours ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

If he doesn’t deny it, then that provides a smoke screen to protect Jon, just like rumors of him and Wylla do. It would also explain why he was so angry when Cat asked about Ashara, because Ned had to besmirch his own reputation because of what his reckless siblings did: Lyanna running off with Rhaegar, Brandon fathering children on women he hardly knew. 

Still doesn’t do much to explain why Daynes themselves think it’s Ned. As for smoke and mirror, it only provides that cover in the south, where he doesn’t want to take Jon and he’s had little connection to up until Robert’s visit. In the North he completely forbids ever talking about it.

I’ve always wondered why he didn’t claim Jon was Brandon’s either. Would solve a lot of problems for Ned and if he knew, as you suggest, Brandon fathered bastards, well, not much honor besmirching there. Perhaps Jon was too young to be his.

 

 

[AlaskanSandman]

A lot of great responses. I will say this about the theory, it has things going for it.

Eddard, Howland Reed, William Dustin, Theo Wull, Mark Ryswell, Martyn Cassel, and Ethan Glover. 7 men, 5 go missing. With Daenerys remembering Willum Darry and 4 Targaryen loyalist taking her from the nursery. Willum Darry could be William Dustin and his 4 other Northmen. With Ethan Glover being the key.

Ethan Glover went to K.L. with Brandon Stark and both were held in the Dungeons were presumably Ashara would have last had a chance to have sex with Brandon. Ethan Glover survived, and may have been found by Eddard upon taking K.L., explaining how Eddard found out about Brandon and Ashara having a kid, and knowing where to go to find Ashara.

Varys in the current story is Master of Whispers, and Rugen, the dungeon guard. Meaning, Vary could have had that ruse as far back as the Rebellion, and let Ashara in to see Brandon. Maybe even freeing Brandon for a moment, as Varys says he could free Eddard.

Ashara Dayne implicates Dorne where House Dalt of Lemonwood live. With Dany remembering Lemon Trees, and a House with a Red Door. 

That Red Door, could be the sigil for House Martell with is Red Sun pierced by a Spear. Looking rather like a Red Comet. Stars linked to Doorways in many cultures like Egyptian where the word Seba for star, is related to Doorways.

Varys, who may know of this all. Helps to kidnap one of the Stark Maids, Arya with the help of Yoren. While Baelish, his foe, steals Sansa. The Queen of Love and Beauty given a rose by Loras, the plotting K.G.

Arys Oakhearts Soiled Knight Chapter is the 13th chapter of AFFC and is when the K.G. takes up a plan to replace Tommen with Myrcella. Suggesting a K.G. during Roberts rebellion was trying to usurp someone. Which could be Arthur Dayne and Lewyn Martell trying to upset the Tully Stark alliance. Or it could be some one trying to upset the Targaryen Martell alliance, or even split Rhaella from Aerys. Brandon and Ashara though, does not dishonor Elia or Rhaegar. Meaning the Lyanna thing could be separate to the K.G. plot. Where we find Arthur Dayne guarding someone who may be pregnant. With rumor that Ashara Dayne was pregnant with a daughter.

Problem I have with it, is Brandon dies in 282, meaning Dany would be born in 283. Yet we are told she was born in 284 and is a year older than Jon. Even with her "Summer Storms" possibly being a confusion and it being a different time that year. Anytime during 284 wouldn't allow her to be sired in 282.

This problem would point more towards Eddard being the father of Daenerys with Ashara Dayne if any Stark was involved. Or it was Rhaegar or Aerys, who were possibly both in K.L. with Ashara Dayne in 283.

The case for Aerys being that Arya is a hidden maid, passed off for someone else, while Jeyne Pool is passed off for Arya, and raped by Ramsey Bolton.

With Jamie recalling Rhaella leaving in the morning while Viserys remembers at night. Rhaella was cloaked and hooded though, and may have been Ashara in disguise, who may also have been who Jamie heard Aerys raping. Ashara with her purple eyes may have been able to pass for a Targaryen with a simple wig. 

The Case for Rhaegar being that Ashara was the sister of Rhaegar's best friend Arthur Dayne, who may have been the plotting K.G who soiled his cloak. Despite Jamie thinking so fond of him. Of all the people who would know Rheagar's plan and obsession with prophecy, it would be the Sword of the Morning who bears Dawn. The sword of Legend forged from the heart of a dying star. With Dragons coming from a moon that got to close to the sun (star), Rhaegar may have connected House Dayne and Ashara to Dragons. This is personally the theory I find most tangible but there are points for each 

[Corvo the Crow]

24 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

Eddard, Howland Reed, William Dustin, Theo Wull, Mark Ryswell, Martyn Cassel, and Ethan Glover. 7 men, 5 go missing. With Daenerys remembering Willum Darry and 4 Targaryen loyalist taking her from the nursery. Willum Darry could be William Dustin and his 4 other Northmen. With Ethan Glover being the key.

Willem Darry is a good man and true but not of the kingsguard is what they talk in this very encounter, the encounter that Dustin is present. I also doubt  Lord Dustin had the means to teleport between KL, where ser Darry was residing at the time and Barrowton, his seat and even if he did, how would he perform his duties in both places? He’d need a doppleganger.

Some(read almost all) the characters are just who they are.

[AlaskanSandman]

10 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Willem Darry is a good man and true but not of the kingsguard is what they talk in this very encounter, the encounter that Dustin is present. I also doubt  Lord Dustin had the means to teleport between KL, where ser Darry was residing at the time and Barrowton, his seat and even if he did, how would he perform his duties in both places? He’d need a doppleganger.

Some(read almost all) the characters are just who they are.

No one said Dustin was teleporting to K.L. to pretend to be Darry where every one knew him. That would make no sense and I dont know why you jumped to that outcome.

The more logical outcome is that Dustin swapped identities with Darry at Dragonstone after maybe killing him. Or Viserys just mixed their names up himself.

[Corvo the Crow]

2 minutes ago, AlaskanSandman said:

The more logical outcome is that Dustin swapped identities with Darry at Dragonstone after maybe killing him. Or Viserys just mixed their names up himself.

Unless he swapped bodies as well, Darry was an old man, a very old one.

[AlaskanSandman]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Unless he swapped bodies as well, Darry was an old man, a very old one.

There is no reason to think Dustin was a faceless man so far as I know haha. No one said Darry was a Very Old Man either. He is simply described of dying of a wasting sickness when Dany was a kid. Theon looks years older than he is just after some good ol abuse. We can't be sure the age of Willum Darry.

[Corvo the Crow]

1 minute ago, AlaskanSandman said:

There is no reason to think Dustin was a faceless man so far as I know haha. No one said Darry was a Very Old Man either. He is simply described of dying of a wasting sickness when Dany was a kid. Theon looks years older than he is just after some good ol abuse. We can't be sure the age of Willum Darry.

 

Quote

She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. 

Half blind grey bear describes an old men to ne, unless you suggest those servants subjected him to constant torture,both physical and psychological, mutilations and malnutrition, Theon isn’t a good comparison.

[AlaskanSandman]

7 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

 

Half blind grey bear describes an old men to ne, unless you suggest those servants subjected him to constant torture,both physical and psychological, mutilations and malnutrition, Theon isn’t a good comparison.

That could just be the sickness, again, that did that to him. As he is described as wasting away

She remembered Ser Willem dimly, a great grey bear of a man, half-blind, roaring and bellowing orders from his sickbed. The servants had lived in terror of him, but he had always been kind to Dany. He called her "Little Princess" and sometimes "My Lady," and his hands were soft as old leather. He never left his bed, though, and the smell of sickness clung to him day and night, a hot, moist, sickly sweet odor. That was when they lived in Braavos, in the big house with the red door. Dany had her own room there, with a lemon tree outside her window. After Ser Willem had died, the servants had stolen what little money they had left, and soon after they had been put out of the big house. Dany had cried when the red door closed behind them forever.