Heresy 242 The Other Starks

[alienarea]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

but as his life flowed out of him in a red tide, Brandon Stark could taste the blood.

This sentence is ambiguos in my understanding. Is Brandon Stark Bran, tasting the blood of the captive? Or is Brandon Stark the captive, tasting his own blood?

Is Bran all Brandon Starks, i.e. a loop, the cause for the seasons being out of sync?

[Melifeather]

32 minutes ago, alienarea said:

This sentence is ambiguos in my understanding. Is Brandon Stark Bran, tasting the blood of the captive? Or is Brandon Stark the captive, tasting his own blood?

Is Bran all Brandon Starks, i.e. a loop, the cause for the seasons being out of sync?

I think Bran is tasting the blood that Brandon Stark tasted, meaning the man being killed was a Brandon Stark of old.

[alienarea]

On 3/1/2022 at 10:44 PM, Melifeather said:

I think Bran is tasting the blood that Brandon Stark tasted, meaning the man being killed was a Brandon Stark of old.

I speculated a few times that this captive's blood is the first blood the winterfell weirwood tasted. Maybe because this is a Brandon Stark there's a link between the Winterfell weirwood and the Starks - there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

For good or bad, I have a tendency to connect things that probably aren't connected.

What about this: the to be sacrificed Stark was the last hero, and he was sacrificed on behalf of the CotF as the price for their help.

They helped the Starks to overthrow the Barrow King. As the Barrow King was the first king of the first men, he was also the first enemy of the CotF.

 

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, alienarea said:

I speculated a few times that this captive's blood is the first blood the winterfell weirwood tasted. Maybe because this is a Brandon Stark there's a link between the Winterfell weirwood and the Starks - there must always be a Stark in Winterfell.

For good or bad, I have a tendency to connect things that probably aren't connected.

What about this: the to be sacrificed Stark was the last hero, and he was sacrificed on behalf of the CotF as the price for their help.

They helped the Starks to overthrow the Barrow King. As the Barrow King was the first king of the first men, he was also the first enemy of the CotF.

 

Bran is taken on a journey backwards through time, witnessing events which are presumably significant to the history of Winterfell. One of them is the blood sacrifice. We can argue over the precise interpretation of the event[s], but its not a random picture. Bran has experienced it for a reason. This isn't just a random example. Its a significant event in the history of Winterfell/the Starks

[alienarea]

5 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Bran is taken on a journey backwards through time, witnessing events which are presumably significant to the history of Winterfell. One of them is the blood sacrifice. We can argue over the precise interpretation of the event[s], but its not a random picture. Bran has experienced it for a reason. This isn't just a random example. Its a significant event in the history of Winterfell/the Starks

My sci-fi take on this is that all the Brandon Starks are parallel timelines of the same person.

In one timeline he's Brandon the Builder, in another Brandon the Shipwrecked, ...

And because the timelines got messed up, the seasons are out of synch.

 

[Black Crow]

All things are possible of course, given that GRRM was principally known for sci-fi rather than high-fantasy

Nevertheless, in this case I'm sticking with the fantasy and inclined therefore to see this sacrifice not as a random vignette of the bad old days of yore, but as something significant, perhaps as you suggested earlier, the sacrifice which bound the Starks to the Old Powers

[Melifeather]

I know we've moved on from the "where did Benjen go" discussion, but I've just stumbled upon a detail that I had forgotten about:

Quote

A Game of Thrones - Jon IV

It was Ghost who knew what to do. Silent as shadow, the pale direwolf moved closer and began to lick the warm tears off Samwell Tarly's face. The fat boy cried out, startled … and somehow, in a heartbeat, his sobs turned to laughter.

Snow laughed with him. Afterward they sat on the frozen ground, huddled in their cloaks with Ghost between them. Jon told the story of how he and Robb had found the pups newborn in the late summer snows. It seemed a thousand years ago now. Before long he found himself talking of Winterfell.

"Sometimes I dream about it," he said. "I'm walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don't even know who I'm looking for. Most nights it's my father, but sometimes it's Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they'd found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.

 

Benjen had cut blazes into trees to mark which way he went. He was traveling north. The blazes were found when rangers from the Shadow Tower had made sweeps of the area.

We suspect it was Benjen that left the cache of obsidian wrapped in a cloak near the Fist of the First Men. It seems he disappeared in the same area where Mance and the wildlings were gathering up in the Frostfangs, a mountain range in the far northwest. Beyond the Frostfangs are the Lands of Always Winter. There are clusters of wildlings living in valleys nestled in the Frostfangs - the Thenns are from one such valley.

 

Quote

A Clash of Kings - Jon IV

As he worked, he could hear the voices from inside the tent. Jarman Buckwell said, "The easiest road up into the Frostfangs is to follow the Milkwater back to its source. Yet if we go that path, Rayder will know of our approach, certain as sunrise."

"The Giant's Stair might serve," said Ser Mallador Locke, "or the Skirling Pass, if it's clear."

The wine was steaming. Jon lifted the kettle off the fire, filled eight cups, and carried them into the tent. The Old Bear was peering at the crude map Sam had drawn him that night back in Craster's Keep. He took a cup from Jon's tray, tried a swallow of wine, and gave a brusque nod of approval. His raven hopped down his arm. "Corn," it said. "Corn. Corn."

 

The men of the Watch wanted to get up into the Frostfangs to look for Benjen. The Skirling Pass was just one route that they could take.

Quote

 

A Clash of Kings - Jon VI

The black brothers moved through black shadows amidst black rocks, working their way up a steep, twisting trail as their breath frosted in the black air. Jon felt almost naked without his mail, but he did not miss its weight. This was hard going, and slow. To hurry here was to risk a broken ankle or worse. Stonesnake seemed to know where to put his feet as if by instinct, but Jon needed to be more careful on the broken, uneven ground.

The Skirling Pass was really a series of passes, a long twisting course that went up around a succession of icy wind-carved peaks and down through hidden valleys that seldom saw the sun. Apart from his companions, Jon had glimpsed no living man since they'd left the wood behind and begun to make their way upward. The Frostfangs were as cruel as any place the gods had made, and as inimical to men. The wind cut like a knife up here, and shrilled in the night like a mother mourning her slain children. What few trees they saw were stunted, grotesque things growing sideways out of cracks and fissures. Tumbled shelves of rock often overhung the trail, fringed with hanging icicles that looked like long white teeth from a distance.

 

 

[alienarea]

On 3/5/2022 at 10:51 PM, Melifeather said:

I know we've moved on from the "where did Benjen go" discussion, but I've just stumbled upon a detail that I had forgotten about:

 

Benjen had cut blazes into trees to mark which way he went. He was traveling northwest. The blazes were found when rangers from the Shadow Tower had made sweeps of the area.

We suspect it was Benjen that left the cache of obsidian wrapped in a cloak near the Fist of the First Men. It seems he disappeared in the same area where Mance and the wildlings were gathering up in the Frostfangs, a mountain range in the far northwest. Beyond the Frostfangs are the Lands of Always Winter. There are clusters of wildlings living in valleys nestled in the Frostfangs - the Thenns are from one such valley.

 

 

The men of the Watch wanted to get up into the Frostfangs to look for Benjen. The Skirling Pass was just one route that they could take.

 

That is interesting, but where are you going with this?

 

[Melifeather]

4 hours ago, alienarea said:

That is interesting, but where are you going with this?

 

I just wanted to share the text that said the Watch found blazes on trees and thought they were made by Benjen to indicate which direction he went. I guess there are a few chains of thought about this. 1) Benjen knew people would be searching for him, but he was on the trail of something. 2) the wildlings or the Others killed or captured Benjen and left the marks to lead the Watch on a wild goose trail. 3) Benjen was replaying the role of the Last Hero. Was he actually searching for the Children? Where exactly is the cave where Bloodraven and Bran are?

If Benjen made those blazes and was still alive, why didn't he go back for reinforcements? I realize he could have thought he was in hot pursuit, but the Frostfangs are such an inhospitable mountain range. Surely Benjen knew how dangerous it was to keep heading for the Lands of Always Winter. If he was looking for white walkers, why didn't he stick around near the Fist? That's where the Watch was attacked - and, I might add - south of where the wildlings were gathering.

How all this ties in with the current Stark discussion is what Benjen's missing status might mean. I'm beginning to believe that Benjen may have been playing the role of the Last Hero. I had previously thought that Waymar Royce had repeated that role, but he wasn't the last one killed. After he rose he killed Will while Gared got away only to be executed later by Ned. 

I have been noting the parallels between the present and the past, except the present is a mirrored image - a reversal of events. The Last Hero of the past was seeking the Children with the Others in hot pursuit. Somehow the Children helped him and he rode out with the Nights Watch to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. If Benjen was the Last Hero for this current time loop, he didn't receive any help and the Others weren't stopped. Since the Wall was built after the defeat, then the Wall should come down this time around. But then again, if the wildlings are the Others they've already gotten through the Wall - at least a significant number. There are many more that fled to Hardhome and other places. I guess it makes sense if the wildlings still want to see the Wall destroyed. 

[Melifeather]

You know, I never was a believer that Coldhands was Benjen Stark before - even when HBO revealed it as being him - and especially after GRRM's publicist specifically asked him and he denied it, but it would make sense. Instead of the Children helping the Last Hero, they found him too late. He had already been killed, but because of the curse on the Starks they just don't stay dead. If they aren't warded with an iron sword they rise. Would GRRM deliberately lie to his publicist like that?

Hiding his face with his scarf seems intended to hide his identity from Bran and Hodor, but the Children's comment that he died long ago wasn't specifically with regards to his identity, but rather a question as to his safety. Read the passage again:

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Bran shivered again. "The ranger..."

"He cannot come."

"They'll kill him."

"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

 

 

The comment that "they killed him long ago" was in response to Bran's concern that Coldhands didn't come in the cave with them. It wasn't the Children's assertion that Coldhands was hundreds or thousands of years old. 

[Melifeather]

Sorry for all the updates and editing. You may need to reread both of my last two posts for clarifications and new thoughts.

[Black Crow]

Having played this silly game back in the day, blazing a trail is done to let those coming after you [not necessarily reinforcements] know where you've gone. If the blaze was marked on a tree it couldn't easily be destroyed or removed.

Conversely, they can also be used to find your way back again.

[Melifeather]

2 hours ago, Melifeather said:

A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

Bran shivered again. "The ranger..."

"He cannot come."

"They'll kill him."

"No. They killed him long ago. Come now. It is warmer down deep, and no one will hurt you there. He is waiting for you."

Coldhands had just helped get Bran, Hodor, Meera, and Jojen to the cave of skulls. Leaf wants them all to follow her deeper into the cave to meet Bloodraven. Bran is concerned for Coldhand's safety so he starts to ask..."The ranger...", but Leaf interrupts him and says, "He cannot come", into the cave that is. Bran worries, "They'll kill him", but Leaf reassures him, "No. They killed him long ago." Grammatically speaking "they" are the wights outside the cave which supports my idea that Benjen went in search of the Children. He found the cave, but was killed by the wights, and the Children didn't help him like they helped Bran.

[Melifeather]

I was searching the text to see if Bran, Meera, or Jojen noticed any blazes on the trees, but all I could find was Jojen encouraging Bran to mark trees when he was inside Summer.

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"I'm sick of frogs." Meera was a frogeater from the Neck, so Bran couldn't really blame her for catching so many frogs, he supposed, but even so . . . "I wanted to eat the deer." For a moment he remembered the taste of it, the blood and the raw rich meat, and his mouth watered. I won the fight for it. I won.

"Did you mark the trees?"

Bran flushed. Jojen was always telling him to do things when he opened his third eye and put on Summer's skin. To claw the bark of a tree, to catch a rabbit and bring it back in his jaws uneaten, to push some rocks in a line. Stupid things. "I forgot," he said.

 

Further in the same chapter:

Quote

 

A Storm of Swords - Bran I

"Will you remember? And next time, mark the tree. Any tree, it doesn't matter, so long as you do it."

"I will. I'll remember. I could go back and do it now, if you like. I won't forget this time." But I'll eat my deer first, and fight with those little wolves some more.

 

Not sure if this is supposed to make us think of Benjen's blazes or not, but it seems deliberate.

[Melifeather]

Where is the cave of skulls? Bran, Meera, Jojen, and Hodor met Coldhands outside of the Nighfort and they headed....north? The precise location is not specified in Dance, but The Lands of Ice and Fire places it within the haunted forest, east of the Fist of the First Men, and southwest of the Antler River.

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/4/42/Beyond_the_wall_Adwd_map.jpg

It doesn't really match the description in the text however, because Bran and company pass a frozen lake. The map doesn't show any lakes until further north in the Lands of Always Winter, unless they were walking along the shore of the Shivering Sea. Then the islands they saw with trees on them would have been Skane and Skagos.

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

The water was frozen, and the snow had been falling for so long that Bran had lost count of the days, turning the lake into a vast white wilderness. Where the ice was flat and the ground was bumpy, the going was easy, but where the wind had pushed the snow up into ridges, sometimes it was hard to tell where the lake ended and the shore began. Even the trees were not as infallible a guide as they might have hoped, for there were wooded islands in the lake, and wide areas ashore where no trees grew.

The elk went where he would, regardless of the wishes of Meera and Jojen on his back. Mostly he stayed beneath the trees, but where the shore curved away westward he would take the more direct path across the frozen lake, shouldering through snowdrifts taller than Bran as the ice crackled underneath his hooves. Out there the wind was stronger, a cold north wind that howled across the lake, knifed through their layers of wool and leather, and set them all to shivering. When it blew into their faces, it would drive the snow into their eyes and leave them as good as blind.

 

A large lake, really a sea, would have a large swath of beach which would explain the wide swath where no trees grew. The elk cut across the frozen water (bay?), still heading north even though the shoreline curved westward. Bran slipped into Summer and they went exploring while Coldhands went to deal with some men. 

Quote

 

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

Summer ran. Across the lake he raced, his paws kicking up sprays of snow behind him. The trees stood shoulder to shoulder, like men in a battle line, all cloaked in white. Over roots and rocks the direwolf sped, through a drift of old snow, the crust crackling beneath his weight. His paws grew wet and cold. The next hill was covered with pines, and the sharp scent of their needles filled the air. When he reached the top, he turned in a circle, sniffing at the air, then raised his head and howled.

The smells were there. Mansmells.

Ashes, Bran thought, old and faint, but ashes. It was the smell of burnt wood, soot, and charcoal. A dead fire.

He shook the snow off his muzzle. The wind was gusting, so the smells were hard to follow. The wolf turned this way and that, sniffing. All around were heaps of snow and tall trees garbed in white. The wolf let his tongue loll out between his teeth, tasting the frigid air, his breath misting as snowflakes melted on his tongue. When he trotted toward the scent, Hodor lumbered after him at once. The elk took longer to decide, so Bran returned reluctantly to his own body and said, "That way. Follow Summer. I smelled it."

As the first sliver of a crescent moon came peeking through the clouds, they finally stumbled into the village by the lake. They had almost walked straight through it. From the ice, the village looked no different than a dozen other spots along the lakeshore. Buried under drifts of snow, the round stone houses could just as easily have been boulders or hillocks or fallen logs, like the deadfall that Jojen had mistaken for a building the day before, until they dug down into it and found only broken branches and rotting logs.

 

Bran is inside Summer running and sniffing. He smells ashes, burnt wood, soot, and charcoal and concludes the smells are from a "dead" fire. Is it possible that the village was Hardhome?

Hardhome is described as sitting on a sheltered bay with a deep harbor. A great cliff looms over it pocked with cave mouths. Hardhome was abruptly destroyed six centuries ago. Something terrible happened that night; the details are uncertain. The homes of the inhabitants of Hardhome are said to have burned with flames so high and hot that the Nights Watch thought that the sun was rising in from the north. Afterwards, ashes rained down on the haunted forest and the Shivering Sea for almost half a year.

Traders investigating Hardhome reported a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, and shrieks echoing from the cave mouths. A ship sent by the Night's Watch also reported the strange screams.

The free folk never again settled the site, which became overgrown by wilderness. Rangers roaming north of the Wall told tales of Hardhome being haunted by ghouls, demons, and burning ghosts with an unhealthy taste for blood. 

The mansmells that Summer noticed and the smell of ashes that Bran noted seem to imply that they are at Hardhome. The caves in the cliffs indicate this is an area where an elaborate cave system is located. Not only that, but the description of Hardhome as being haunted by ghouls, er rather the dead that have a taste for blood could explain the number of wights hidden under the snow near the entrance to the cave of skulls. 

Later on when everyone was sleeping, Bran slipped into Summer and went exploring once again.

 

Quote

A Dance with Dragons - Bran I

Wolf, he knew at once. Summer stalked toward the sound, wary now. Soon enough the scent of blood was back, but now there were other smells: piss and dead skins, bird shit, feathers, and wolf, wolf, wolf. A pack. He would need to fight for his meat.

What do you make of "piss and dead skins, bird shit, and feathers? It seems like a clue. Are these supposed to be references to any of the wildlings that followed Mother Mole to Hardhome?

The next Bran chapter is when they find the cave. It is very close to the lake they just crossed and the village that smelled of ashes.

[alienarea]

13 hours ago, Melifeather said:

I just wanted to share the text that said the Watch found blazes on trees and thought they were made by Benjen to indicate which direction he went. I guess there are a few chains of thought about this. 1) Benjen knew people would be searching for him, but he was on the trail of something. 2) the wildlings or the Others killed or captured Benjen and left the marks to lead the Watch on a wild goose trail. 3) Benjen was replaying the role of the Last Hero. Was he actually searching for the Children? Where exactly is the cave where Bloodraven and Bran are?

If Benjen made those blazes and was still alive, why didn't he go back for reinforcements? I realize he could have thought he was in hot pursuit, but the Frostfangs are such an inhospitable mountain range. Surely Benjen knew how dangerous it was to keep heading for the Lands of Always Winter. If he was looking for white walkers, why didn't he stick around near the Fist? That's where the Watch was attacked - and, I might add - south of where the wildlings were gathering.

How all this ties in with the current Stark discussion is what Benjen's missing status might mean. I'm beginning to believe that Benjen may have been playing the role of the Last Hero. I had previously thought that Waymar Royce had repeated that role, but he wasn't the last one killed. After he rose he killed Will while Gared got away only to be executed later by Ned. 

I have been noting the parallels between the present and the past, except the present is a mirrored image - a reversal of events. The Last Hero of the past was seeking the Children with the Others in hot pursuit. Somehow the Children helped him and he rode out with the Nights Watch to defeat the Others in the Battle for the Dawn. If Benjen was the Last Hero for this current time loop, he didn't receive any help and the Others weren't stopped. Since the Wall was built after the defeat, then the Wall should come down this time around. But then again, if the wildlings are the Others they've already gotten through the Wall - at least a significant number. There are many more that fled to Hardhome and other places. I guess it makes sense if the wildlings still want to see the Wall destroyed. 

But then Bran is the last hero, and Summer the dog he'll be losing.

I don't recall, did Bran pick a sword from the crypts, too? Did it break?

Waymar Royce + Gared + Will

Benjen Stark + Othor + Jafer

Bran + Rickon + Hodor + Meera + Jorjen + Osha

Are these twelve the Last Hero and his companions 2.0?

[alienarea]

I need to get back to the Barrow King. Do we have a name for his family?

The were rumored to be necromancers. And didn't call GRRM the Others Neverborn in one of the drafts?

Throw in the Greyjoys with "what is dead may never rise", Theon having a chapter "The Prince of Winterfell", Victarion's  arm, Euron's sorcery and him literally overthrowing his brother Balon. 

 

[Melifeather]

7 hours ago, alienarea said:

I need to get back to the Barrow King. Do we have a name for his family?

The were rumored to be necromancers. And didn't call GRRM the Others Neverborn in one of the drafts?

Throw in the Greyjoys with "what is dead may never rise", Theon having a chapter "The Prince of Winterfell", Victarion's  arm, Euron's sorcery and him literally overthrowing his brother Balon. 

 

 

I'm afraid the family name has been lost through time. The Dunstin's claim descent and have been bannermen of the Starks since the First King died. They reside at Barrowton and their sigil is of a rusted crown so "Dustin" is as good as any guess.

 

Quote

 

Melisandre said

A Storm of Swords - Samwell V

Sam cleared his throat. "S-sire. The dagger . . . the dragonglass only shattered when I tried to stab a wight."

Melisandre smiled. "Necromancy animates these wights, yet they are still only dead flesh. Steel and fire will serve for them. The ones you call the Others are something more."

"Demons made of snow and ice and cold," said Stannis Baratheon. "The ancient enemy. The only enemy that matters." He considered Sam again. "I am told that you and this wildling girl passed beneath the Wall, through some magic gate."

 

 

Other than the text above, where have you found text that states that the Barrow Kings were necromancers?

[alienarea]

8 hours ago, Melifeather said:

 

I'm afraid the family name has been lost through time. The Dunstin's claim descent and have been bannermen of the Starks since the First King died. They reside at Barrowton and their sigil is of a rusted crown so "Dustin" is as good as any guess.

 

 

Other than the text above, where have you found text that states that the Barrow Kings were necromancers?

Either the Wiki or the World Book.

[Precioushobbits]

What if Stark isn’t a family name, but a title or type of being. Then there always has to be a Stark in Winterfell could have a whole new meaning. As well as the merging of Northern bloodlines into one house. What if they are sharing the burden of a curse?