Heresy 245 The Alpha and the Omega and what lies between

[Frey family reunion]

2 hours ago, LynnS said:

OH NO!  Not the tower of joy   This is starting to feel like a scavenger hunt... a little bit here, a little bit there.

Sorry about the random post.  I was bored at work and scanning some stuff I had on my iPad and came across that.  Thought I’d share.

[LynnS]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry about the random post.  I was bored at work and scanning some stuff I had on my iPad and came across that.  Thought I’d share.

Oh no no!  That's not what I meant at all.  It just feels like we are meant to find these tidbits in unconventional places and not all in one place.  

And the tower of joy... well, well waddya know.

Edited April 25 by LynnS

[Melifeather]

On 4/24/2024 at 4:35 PM, Frey family reunion said:

Interesting quote I found perusing through a Song of Ice and Fire RPG from Green Ronin publishing.  In it’s description of Howland Reed we’re given this:

Now granted this is a role playing game, so I’m not sure if this is considered canon, semi-canon or complete nonsense.  I suppose it depends on how they got their information.

If it came from George it might call to question the orthodox assumptions about the tower of joy.  I’m not sure I’ve seen anyone think that they stormed the tower and were with Lyanna for days before her death.   

Also note that the RPG decided to use the connector “and” as opposed to “where”.  In other words, they aren’t necessarily describing Lyanna’s last days as having occurred in the tower of joy.

I have one word for this: hogwash!

 

I have a hard time accepting the HBO version as well as the assumptions that are defended rabidly by the R+L=J crowd because I just don’t see it! Until these mysteries are spelled out in a published book and I’ve been proven either right or dead wrong, I’ll continue to believe that the tower of joy was simply a nickname Rhaegar gave to Maegor’s Holdfast, that Lyanna was mortally wounded by Sumner Crakehall, and that Ned found Lyanna near the ruins of Whitewalls on the shore of the Gods Eye.

Edited April 26 by Melifeather

[LynnS]

Hah Feather! Still passionate, I see.   I don't have a lot to say about the tower of joy that hasn't been said before.  I still have nagging doubts about the conventional wisdom.  I think the only people there were Ned's crew and the 3 white cloaks.  I don't think Ned's dream is definitive concerning Lyanna's presence.  I think his dream is more symbolic and akin to signs and portents.

- the blood red sky = comet = birth of dragons

- The dawn sword 'alive with light' as Ned sees it in a dream vision rather than how it is normally seen by human eyes - thw white blade. The language to describe it has an affinity to the red religion: light, life and love.  I'm considering the dawn sword as the original sword of Azor Ahai and it's symbolic connection to the birth of dragons.

- Lyanna screaming out to Ned, perhaps during a difficult childbirth concerning the birth of Jon and his connection to blue petals, like the eyes of death - the white walkers.  

I think of it as signs and portents because the comet has not yet appeared (simultaneous with the birth of dragons) before Ned's death but shortly afterwards.  To me the dream is about opposing forces - fire and ice.

As for where Lyanna died; I still favour the Quiet Isle because of something Elder brother told Brienne.  That they didn't always have a skilled healer and that the Island was a place of refuge for noble born ladies in trouble.  The perfect place to hide since the brothers take a vow of silence.  Ned says that Lyanna deserved better than a butcher.  There is no context for this statement and can be read with multiple meanings.  But if you don't have a skilled healer, who is it that stands in as a surgeon, if not the butcher?  There is only one room there per se.  Elder brother's cave which would serve as a suitable place for a birthing room.

There is also the question of the preparation of Lyanna's bones.  Something that is typically handled by the Silent Sisters.  I don't imagine anyone handling that at the tower of joy.

 

[Black Crow]

18 hours ago, LynnS said:

Hah Feather! Still passionate, I see.   I don't have a lot to say about the tower of joy that hasn't been said before.  I still have nagging doubts about the conventional wisdom.  I think the only people there were Ned's crew and the 3 white cloaks.  I don't think Ned's dream is definitive concerning Lyanna's presence.  I think his dream is more symbolic and akin to signs and portents.

- the blood red sky = comet = birth of dragons

- The dawn sword 'alive with light' as Ned sees it in a dream vision rather than how it is normally seen by human eyes - thw white blade. The language to describe it has an affinity to the red religion: light, life and love.  I'm considering the dawn sword as the original sword of Azor Ahai and it's symbolic connection to the birth of dragons.

- Lyanna screaming out to Ned, perhaps during a difficult childbirth concerning the birth of Jon and his connection to blue petals, like the eyes of death - the white walkers.  

I think of it as signs and portents because the comet has not yet appeared (simultaneous with the birth of dragons) before Ned's death but shortly afterwards.  To me the dream is about opposing forces - fire and ice.

As for where Lyanna died; I still favour the Quiet Isle because of something Elder brother told Brienne.  That they didn't always have a skilled healer and that the Island was a place of refuge for noble born ladies in trouble.  The perfect place to hide since the brothers take a vow of silence.  Ned says that Lyanna deserved better than a butcher.  There is no context for this statement and can be read with multiple meanings.  But if you don't have a skilled healer, who is it that stands in as a surgeon, if not the butcher?  There is only one room there per se.  Elder brother's cave which would serve as a suitable place for a birthing room.

There is also the question of the preparation of Lyanna's bones.  Something that is typically handled by the Silent Sisters.  I don't imagine anyone handling that at the tower of joy.

 

I'm much inclined to agree. The trouble with the "accepted" version so long hosted by the R+L=J crowd is that it's so incomplete. There's no reason to doubt that the "Tower of Joy" is the one on the Dornish border, but all that we actually get so far is Lord Eddard's "fever dream" which doesn't actually tell a complete story and which GRRM has explicitly warned isn't reliable. Bits are missing and in particular Howland Reed ...

[Melifeather]

GRRM has cleverly written a very descriptive dream, but at the same time doesn't spell out or confirm anything at all. It's all symbolic. Such is the way of dreams.

Quote

 

A Game of Thrones - Eddard X

He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood.

 

Ned called it "an old dream", but was it old because it occurred frequently or because he hadn't dreamt it in a very long time? 

And what had just happened right before he blacked out and had the dream? He was attacked by Jaime and his men. All of Ned's men were killed. And Ned imagined the Red Keep's walls looking red as blood. Let me repeat that. His last waking moments were of the Red Keep and its sandstone walls red as blood. 

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard IX

Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms.

Somewhere the gold cloaks found a litter, but the trip back to the castle was a blur of agony, and Ned lost consciousness more than once. He remembered seeing the Red Keep looming ahead of him in the first grey light of dawn. The rain had darkened the pale pink stone of the massive walls to the color of blood.

Then Grand Maester Pycelle was looming over him, holding a cup, whispering, "Drink, my lord. Here. The milk of the poppy, for your pain." He remembered swallowing, and Pycelle was telling someone to heat the wine to boiling and fetch him clean silk, and that was the last he knew.

 

The very next Ned chapter begins with the dream.

There are allot of assumptions being made by readers according to personal interpretation and preference.

Edited Wednesday at 05:21 PM by Melifeather

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, Melifeather said:

Littlefinger and the City Watch found him there in the street, cradling Jory Cassel's body in his arms.

Very evocative of:

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A Game of Thrones - Eddard I

They had found him still holding her body, silent with grief. The little crannogman, Howland Reed, had taken her hand from his. Ned could recall none of it. 

 

 

[Melifeather]

Some interesting tidbits about Jory Cassel...

Jory was Ned's Captain of Guards for eight years. He was very good natured with the children, separating Sansa and Arya once when they had a snow fight, had chased Bran across the roofs of Winterfell many times, and went hunting with Jon, Robb, and Theon. He was like family.

Jory's father died fighting alongside Eddard at the tower of joy.

Jory joins Robert's hunt for boar before the king departs Winterfell for the south. It is my belief that hunting for boar and being gored by a boar are parallels of Lyanna. Jaime Lannister was squire to Sumner Crakehall for four years. The Crakehall sigil is a striped boar.

 

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A Game of Thrones - Bran II

The hunt left at dawn. The king wanted wild boar at the feast tonight. Prince Joffrey rode with his father, so Robb had been allowed to join the hunters as well. Uncle Benjen, Jory, Theon Greyjoy, Ser Rodrik, and even the queen's funny little brother had all ridden out with them. It was the last hunt, after all. On the morrow they left for the south.

 

 

When Ned and his men faced Jaime Lannister and his guard it was 3 guardsmen against 20. Ned reminded Jaime that if he is killed that Catelyn would kill Tyrion. Jaime instructs his men not to kill Ned. The whole scene seems to be an echo that may have influenced Ned's fever dream where he and his men met the three Kingsguard. 

King Robert's death in his bed of blood is likely a repeat of Lyanna's bed of blood. The three Kingsguard were positioned on the way to the royal apartments in Maegor's holdfast.

[Melifeather]

Words and phrases can have multiple meanings. Just as I had suggested that the Wall has figuratively (already) fallen, the "tower long fallen" could be interpreted as a defeat just as much as a physical dismantling.

King Aerys was keeping Elia and her children in Maegor's holdfast - not so much for their safety as for his belief that it was necessary to ensure the loyalty of House Martell and all of Dorne. He was also paranoid that Rhaegar was plotting to overthrow him. Such valuable hostages would require the very best security - three Kingsguard. 

The Mad King had 9 Kingsguard:

Ser Gwayne Gaunt - died during the Defiance of Duskendale

Ser Harlan Grandison - died in his sleep in 281

Ser Lewyn Martell and Ser Jonothor Darry both died at the Trident

Ser Barristan Selmy survived the Trident

Ser Gerold Hightower, Ser Oswell Whent, and Ser Arthur Dayne died in the conflict with Ned and his men.

Ser Jaime Lannister was Harlan Grandison's replacement. The Mad King kept him close, because he feared Tywin Lannister's disloyalty.

King Aerys had already sent three Kingsguard to the Trident. He needed three to guard his hostages and one to guard himself.

Maegor's holdfast "fell" the day the city was sacked. Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch scaled the tower to murder Elia and her children. Ned saw what they were doing and tried to stop them, but what if he had to fight his way through the Kingsguard stationed along the way to the royal apartments in the same places that they were stationed for King Robert when he lay dying in his bed of blood? 

Ser Boros Blount guarded the far end of the bridge. Ser Preston Greenfield stood at the bottom of the steps, and Ser Barristan Selmy waited at the door of the king’s bedchamber. Of the three positions, only one may have had a chance at seeing Gregor and Amory climbing: the one stationed at the end of the drawbridge. But, if you were guarding a drawbridge would you be facing the tower? Or would you be facing your attacker?

When Cersei feared another sack on Kings Landing during the battle of the Blackwater, she stationed Ser Ilyn Payne at the door to Maegor's holdfast. When Sansa made her way to Maegor's holdfast that night, she noted that the drawbridge was left unguarded. This is significant, because it confirms that this is a station commonly protected by Kingsguard.

When Sansa snuck out to see Ser Dontos she checked to see who was guarding that night. One time she notes Ser Boros Blount and another night she noted such a large figure could only be Ser Preston Greenfield. 

 

[LynnS]

I missed this notablog post with the blue rose.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2024/03/11/words-of-wisdom-2/

[Black Crow]

So are we looking at a hint about that old dream, and if so why now [ok, March] ?

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

I missed this notablog post with the blue rose.

https://georgerrmartin.com/notablog/2024/03/11/words-of-wisdom-2/

Well, I interpret that to mean that Ned is the only one who has this dream making it a production of his own mind. If the sequence were literal than the dream wouldn’t be solely his.  It also wouldn’t be a dream at all. It would be a memory.

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Melifeather said:

Well, I interpret that to mean that Ned is the only one who has this dream making it a production of his own mind. If the sequence were literal than the dream wouldn’t be solely his.  It also wouldn’t be a dream at all. It would be a memory.

As usual, I have no idea what the hell he means.  Unless he's thinking that he is the only one who can write a dream of spring.

It's posted under the heading: words of wisdom.  For whom?  Himself? Other writers?  Why the blue rose?  His mood is: contemplative.  Involving some deep thinking no doubt.

Edited yesterday at 05:27 PM by LynnS

[LynnS]

8 hours ago, Black Crow said:

So are we looking at a hint about that old dream, and if so why now [ok, March] ?

I'll give you my wildest guess about this...  the old dream is about Harrenhall; where all the betrayals began (according to Tyrion) and the tower of joy, where it all ended.  It's about what happened to Lyanna and the part that future Bran plays at the Tourney.  Not to go into the past and change things, but to actually cause the series of events that follow. 

March was when I would expect some sort of update.  What we got was a blue rose and a quote.    I would guess he's somewhere close to moving onto A Dream of Spring in some POV's.  Bran's in particular; since my even wilder guess is that he's responsible for the false spring.  

[Sandy Clegg]

On 5/1/2024 at 5:12 PM, Melifeather said:

And what had just happened right before he blacked out and had the dream? He was attacked by Jaime and his men. All of Ned's men were killed. And Ned imagined the Red Keep's walls looking red as blood. Let me repeat that. His last waking moments were of the Red Keep and its sandstone walls red as blood.

I agree, and might add:

• His last thoughts would have been of holding the body of a Cassel  ... (Jory)
• He dreams of a bloody death in a tower, or let's say a small Castle ..... (Joy)

 

[Sandy Clegg]

On 5/1/2024 at 6:26 PM, Melifeather said:

ory joins Robert's hunt for boar before the king departs Winterfell for the south. It is my belief that hunting for boar and being gored by a boar are parallels of Lyanna. Jaime Lannister was squire to Sumner Crakehall for four years. The Crakehall sigil is a striped boar.

The sigils are very interesting at the Tower of Joy, especially if you hold them up against the events as Ned's men are slaughtered. For example, Jory's horse being cut from underneath him, Ned cradling his body in the mud. Then you see the sigil of House Ryswell (a ToJ member) and it conjurs up a very evocative image, with the horse, and its bloody red mane against a muddy background: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Ryswell

Edited yesterday at 06:29 PM by Sandy Clegg

[Melifeather]

22 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

The sigils are very interesting at the Tower of Joy, especially if you hold them up against the events as Ned's men are slaughtered. For example, Jory's horse being cut from underneath him, Ned cradling his body in the mud. Then you see the sigil of House Ryswell (a ToJ member) and it conjurs up a very evocative image, with the horse, and its bloody red mane against a muddy background: https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/House_Ryswell

Duncan the tall had a dream that echoed Ned’s. In his dream the horse was named Chestnut. When he woke up he thinks to himself that it didn’t happen like that in real life.

 

Duncan’s Dream
 

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  Egg was asleep by the time Dunk reached the roof. He lay on his back with his hands behind his head and stared up at the sky. The stars were everywhere, thousands and thousands of them. It reminded him of a night at Ashford Meadow, before the tourney started. He had seen a falling star that night. Falling stars were supposed to bring you luck, so he’d told Tanselle to paint it on his shield, but Ashford had been anything but lucky for him. Before the tourney ended, he had almost lost a hand and a foot, and three good men had lost their lives. I gained a squire, though. Egg was with me when I rode away from Ashford. That was the only good thing to come of all that happened. He hoped that no stars fell tonight. 

  There were red mountains in the distance and white sands beneath his feet. Dunk was digging, plunging a spade into the hot, dry earth and flinging the fine sand back over his shoulder. He was making a hole. A grave, he thought, a grave for hope. A trio of Dornish knights stood watching, making mock of him in quiet voices. Farther off the merchants waited with their mules and wayns and sand sledges. They wanted to be off, but he could not leave until he’d buried Chestnut. He would not leave his old friend to the snakes and scorpions and sand dogs. 

  The stot had died on the long, thirsty crossing between the Prince’s Pass and Vaith, with Egg upon his back. His front legs just seemed to fold up under him, and he knelt right down, rolled onto his side, and died. His carcass sprawled beside the hole. Already it was stiff. Soon it would begin to smell. 

  Dunk was weeping as he dug, to the amusement of the Dornish knights. “Water is precious in the waste,” one said, “you ought not to waste it, ser.” The other chuckled and said, “Why do you weep? It was only a horse, and a poor one.” 

  Chestnut, Dunk thought, digging, his name was Chestnut, and he bore me on his back for years, and never bucked or bit. The old stot had looked a sorry thing beside the sleek sand steeds that the Dornishmen were riding, with their elegant heads, long necks, and flowing manes, but he had given all he had to give. 

  “Weeping for a swaybacked stot?” Ser Arlan said, in his old man’s voice. “Why, lad, you never wept for me, who put you on his back.” He gave a little laugh, to show he meant no harm by the reproach. “That’s Dunk the lunk, thick as a castle wall.”

  “He shed no tears for me, either,” said Baelor Breakspear from the grave, “though I was his prince, the hope of Westeros. The gods never meant for me to die so young.” 

  “My father was only nine-and-thirty,” said Prince Valarr. “He had it in him to be a great king, the greatest since Aegon the Dragon.” He looked at Dunk with cool blue eyes. “Why would the gods take him, and leave you?” The Young Prince had his father’s light brown hair, but a streak of silver-gold ran through it. 

  You are dead, Dunk wanted to scream, you are all three dead, why won’t you leave me be? Ser Arlan had died of a chill, Prince Baelor of the blow his brother dealt him during Dunk’s trial of seven, his son Valarr during the Great Spring Sickness. I am not to blame for that. We were in Dorne, we never even knew. 

  “You are mad,” the old man told him. “We will dig no hole for you, when you kill yourself with this folly. In the deep sands a man must hoard his water.” 

  “Begone with you, Ser Duncan,” Valarr said. “Begone.” 

  Egg helped him with the digging. The boy had no spade, only his hands, and the sand flowed back into the grave as fast as they could fling it out. It was like trying to dig a hole in the sea. I have to keep digging, Dunk told himself, though his back and shoulders ached from the effort. I have to bury him down deep where the sand dogs cannot find him. I have to… 

  “… die?” said Big Rob the simpleton from the bottom of the grave. Lying there, so still and cold, with a ragged red wound gaping in his belly, he did not look very big at all. 

  Dunk stopped and stared at him. “You’re not dead. You’re down sleeping in the cellar.” He looked to Ser Arlan for help. “Tell him, ser,” he pleaded, “tell him to get out of the grave.” 

  Only it was not Ser Arlan of Pennytree standing over him at all, it was Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield. The brown knight only cackled. “Dunk the lunk,” he said, “gutting’s slow, but certain. Never knew a man to live with his entrails hanging out.” Red froth bubbled on his lips. He turned and spat, and the white sands drank it down. Treb was standing behind him with an arrow in his eye, weeping slow, red tears. And there was Wet Wat too, his head cut near in half, with old Lem and red-eyed red-eyed Pate and all the rest. They had all been chewing sourleaf with Bennis, Dunk thought at first, but then he realized that it was blood trickling from their mouths. Dead, he thought, all dead, and the brown knight brayed. “Aye, so best get busy. You’ve more graves to dig, lunk. Eight for them and one for me and one for old Ser Useless, and one last one for your baldhead boy.” 

  The spade slipped from Dunk’s hands. “Egg,” he cried, “run! We have to run!” But the sands were giving way beneath their feet. When the boy tried to scramble from the hole, its crumbling sides gave way and collapsed. Dunk saw the sands wash over Egg, burying him as he opened his mouth to shout. He tried to fight his way to him, but the sands were rising all around him, pulling him down into the grave, filling his mouth, his nose, his eyes…

 

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His head was pounding, and he could not forget the dream he dreamed the night before. It never happened that way, he tried to tell himself. It wasn’t like that. Chestnut had died on the long dry ride to Vaith, that part was true. He and Egg rode double until Egg’s brother gave them Maester. The rest of it, though…

 

[LynnS]

On 5/4/2024 at 9:52 AM, Melifeather said:

Well, I interpret that to mean that Ned is the only one who has this dream making it a production of his own mind. If the sequence were literal than the dream wouldn’t be solely his.  It also wouldn’t be a dream at all. It would be a memory.

I agree that memory is a large part of it.  Old memories and old dreams triggered by Robert coming into his life again.  Ned says himself that all it takes is a scratch for all the emotions to come flooding back again.  Something that happens in association with loss, trauma and intense grief.  He lost everyone close to him in some horrific or tragic way.

Now we have this kind of cross-canon pollenation going on between House of Dragons and the books.  I can't help wondering if Ned had to make the same decision about Lyanna, that Viserys made about his wife.  I wonder if this is the thing the Ghost of Ned told Bran about Jon,  that he found more disturbing than crow dreams.  If this is why Ned dreams of reaching for the crown of roses and coming away with a bloody hand?

Edited 3 hours ago by LynnS

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Melifeather said:

“… die?” said Big Rob the simpleton from the bottom of the grave. Lying there, so still and cold, with a ragged red wound gaping in his belly, he did not look very big at all. 

With Dunk the Lunk, and the stot, that's three metaphorical 'fools' who end up in the grave:

stot (dialect) noun

• A bullock, steer
• A stupid, clumsy person

Yeah, George doesn't just write Dunk & Egg as separate fun adventures, there's a lot of keystone symbolism in there which can be used to interpret the main series. As with dreams, there are many ways to interpret the body of ASOIAF work George has given us. 

[Melifeather]

44 minutes ago, Sandy Clegg said:

With Dunk the Lunk, and the stot, that's three metaphorical 'fools' who end up in the grave:

stot (dialect) noun

• A bullock, steer
• A stupid, clumsy person

Yeah, George doesn't just write Dunk & Egg as separate fun adventures, there's a lot of keystone symbolism in there which can be used to interpret the main series. As with dreams, there are many ways to interpret the body of ASOIAF work George has given us. 

I understood Big Rob the simpleton to be Robert Baratheon. As for stot, isn’t it another word for an old horse too?