Melifeather Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 16 hours ago, Sly Wren said: I'm more partial to the theory that Sansa as Alayne and Arya as all of her aliases is giving us in for about Lyanna, not Ashara. But your scenario has to be on the table. Or--the Daynes just didn't name a Sword of the Morning that generation. GRRM makes it sound like it's not that unusual for the Daynes to leave the position open for a while. That it's less about someone being "un" worthy and more about someone being super-duper worthy. 1. This is still my biggest hope for Jon's parentage. I don't think it's happening, but I'm not giving up yet! 2. In the World Book and GRRM's SSM, only someone "of House Dayne" can be Sword of the Morning. So far in the novels, people are only described as "of a House" if their father is from that house. IE: Even at Riverrun, I don't think Robb was even called "of House Tully." It's a phrase that always seems tied to paternity. And to fathers--not grandfathers, grandmothers, etc. If that holds, and if Jon is the next Sword of the Morning, his daddy's a Dayne. Arya is a parallel of Lyanna right down to becoming "no one". Lyanna is dead and Arya is pretending to be dead. What makes me feel even more convinced of Ashara being Wylla are the inverted parallels with "the baby swap" as well as the parallels between Ashara's presumed suicide and Littlefinger pushing Lysa out the Moondoor. The assumed baby swap of Rhaegar's (false Bael) and Elia's child parallels the swap of Mance's (Bael's) son. At the same time it demonstrates that, not only is Rhaegar not Jon's father, neither is Lyanna his mother: Current - Lord Commander Jon Snow Past - Former Lord Commander Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers Current - North of the Wall Past - South in Kings Landing Current - Mance Raydar (Bael) - King Beyond the Wall Past - Rhaegar Targaryen (false Bael) - the presumptive heir Current - Craster was Gilly's father and husband, and Monster's true father Past - Rickard Stark was Lyanna's father, but not Jon's father Current - Monster's mother was Gilly (Craster's daughter) Past - Jon's mother was "Wylla" (not Rickard's daughter) Current - (Bael) Mance’s son Monster Past - (false Bael) Rhaegar’s son Aegon Current - Gilly’s son was not a bastard, yet a child of incest Past - Wylla’s (Ashara) son was not a child of incest, yet he is a bastard Current - Samwell Tarly claims paternity of Bael's Monster, but he's not the father Past - Ned Stark claims paternity of Jon, and he is the true father. False Bael is not Jon's father. Current - Sam takes Bael's child (who was swapped for Gilly's son) to his father's home - safe away from the Wall and Melisandre's desire to sacrifice a king's son. Past - Ned takes his own child to his father's home while false Bael's (Rhaegar) son was swapped for the Pisswater Prince and taken away to safety. Here are the parallels between Ashara's suicide and Lysa's murder: I think Ned brought Ashara to Winterfell with the intention of marrying her after Robert's Rebellion. Jon was born at Winterfell "in the crypts", because his mother is believed to be dead. After Ned was forced into a marriage alliance with the Tullys, Ned returns home to help Ashara return home, but convinces her to leave Jon. This is paralleled later when LC Jon Snow convinces Gilly to leave Monster. In order to understand why Ashara would want to become Wylla, you have to recall what happened to Lady Lollys Stokeworth. Lollys was raped by multiple men - any one of them could be the father of her child Ashara was said to have "danced" with many men - we know she got pregnant, because Barristan Selmy said she was. Lollys prospects for marriage were bleak. When it comes to marriage alliances between houses, an intact maidenhead is the required price. Lollys has an older sister named Falyse, which looks like it should be pronounced as "false-ey" or false sister. Ashara and Lyanna were like sisters so I think Lollys is Ashara and Falyse is Lyanna. Falyse also goes missing and nobody knows where she is except Cersei. Pregnant Lollys's best prospect for marriage is Bronn, a sellsword that became a knight after the Battle of the Blackwater - a noble achievement, but also one that is viewed with distaste. Bronn doesn't come from some noble house so he is viewed as a "jumped up" knight. What were Ashara's marital options after giving birth? She comes from the ancient, important, noble house of Dayne. I think she came up with the Wylla idea as a way to escape a marriage beneath her station and have the added benefit of remaining in her family home. If you think about it, it protects Ned too. His relationship with Ashara could have been seen as fraternizing with the enemy since House Dayne was on the side of the Crown during the Rebellion. Here are the inverted parallels I see between Lysa's murder and Ashara's presumed suicide: Petyr = Alayne's father Father = of Ashara Sansa = Alayne Ashara = Wylla “live” Lysa = Sansa’s aunt, forced out the Moon Door “already dead” Unknown body = Ashara’s aunt/uncle, pushed off the tower Moon Door (a narrow weirwood door that stands between two slender pillars) Palestone Tower Lysa intended to kill Sansa/Alayne Ashara/Wylla pretended to kill herself 13 hours ago, EggBlue said: I do like Sansa/Ashara parallel. but, Wylla/Alayne doesn't align at all. Wylla is a servant, Alayne is a bastard lady. their roles, purpose and connection to the family are different. then of course there's the logistics part that should be considered to a degree. if Wylla is indeed Ashara, then Daynes have turned their daughter/sister into a servant . not to mention, this situation doesn't explain a Ned Stark involvement at all... if anything, it would make Daynes hate Ned even more. what with Knocking up their sister, leaving her to be a servant, and killing Arthur who was doing his job. the fact that Wylla was both Ned's and Jon's wet nurse simply means that she has at least 2 children: one is 15 , the other is 12. I still tend to stick to my theory that Ashara is Lemore and that Ned has covered for her and house Dayne. he clearly fucked up there! maybe that's why he always has a "sad smile" in memories! he was the perfect knight and had to stop being the perfect knight to be the perfect Kingsgaurd. likely, by the end he was neither. one could say Arthur made the choice that Jon's friends stopped him to do. Arthur chose to be a kingsgaurd to be by his brother's(Rhaegar's) side, while Jon was persuaded not to follow his brother(Robb) . aaand ... another cover up by Ned Stark for Daynes. I mean, what did Robert do to Rhaegar's family when he thought Rhaegar has hooked up with Lyanna?! totally plausible. but what a disappointing development! a man of the night instead of the knight in shining armor I think Alayne is viewed with much disdain since Petyr is also viewed with contempt. We're familiar with up-jumped knights, but Petyr is an up-jumped Lord. When the marriage was proposed to Harry the Heir, he pretty much thought Alayne was beneath his station which I think is a nod towards what Ashara thought about her marriage prospects after giving birth. She didn't want to marry beneath her station. She found it as distasteful as Harry did of his match with Alayne. Lady Lenore is more likely Rhaella Targaryen. There isn't a description of what Rhaella looked like, but you have to remember that her grandmother was Bella Blackwood, aka Black Betha due to her black hair and eyes. Who better to care for baby Aegon than his own grandmother? After successive miscarriages, Aegon became suspicious of Rhaella and she spent much of her time with septas. It would be easy for her to assume the identity of a septa since she spent so much time with them. Circling back to how the Daynes would feel about Ned...who exactly was left at Starfall after the Rebellion? I suspect that it was only Ashara and the household guards and servants. 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