Controversial ASoIaF Opinions

[Corvo the Crow]

4 hours ago, KingEuronGreyjoy said:

Daenerys isn’t the greatest human being ever. Sure she should be commended for attempting (and thus far failing miserably) to eradicating slavery in slaver’s bay but I guarantee if a majority of other characters in ASOIAF were positioned as she is, with 3 dragons, they’d do the same. She is honestly selfish, self righteous, and arrogant. And even more naive than Ned was when it comes to ruling Westeros. As she is now, she’d be a terrible Queen. Maybe a decent Conquerer, but poor Queen.

 

4 hours ago, Tyrosh Lannister said:

When she eventually leaves slavers bay for westeros it is a certainty that slavery will return 

 

Sorry to break it to you guys but Daenerys hasn't "failed" in eradicating slavery, neither will it return upon her departure. because she has already reinstated slavery in Yunkai and Astapor by agreeing to the treaty. She committed genocide in Astapor with claims that she's gonna eradicate slavery but all she did was genocide Astapori freeborn, then get a ribute from Yunkai like a total Dothraki and conquer Meereen and finally leave the remaining population of Astapor, almost all former slaves except for freeborn below 12(not even the younglings survived), to die from disease and starvation. Eradicating slavery was a cheap excuse to get the unsullied and not pay for them. What she did was basically entering a gun store, buying a loaded gun with a rare gem and then shooting the owner dead and retaking that gem. If it were on this scale we'd call her a thief and a murderer with the scales being thousands of times larger, she is called a ruler of men.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, SeanF said:

That depends on the outcomes of the Battle of Meereen and the revolution in Volantis.

The Slavers only have to suffer one big defeat, and the game is up.

The issue I see is that unless Daenerys brings in feudalism to the Bay, what system will there be to replace slavery? We've already seen that when left to their own devices the freed slaves just chose to bring back slavery again but with themselves as the masters. If Daenerys leaves for Westeros that could happen again and then it's just back to the way it was before but with a change in leadership.

[Corvo the Crow]

6 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue I see is that unless Daenerys brings in feudalism to the Bay, what system will there be to replace slavery? We've already seen that when left to their own devices the freed slaves just chose to bring back slavery again but with themselves as the masters. If Daenerys leaves for Westeros that could happen again and then it's just back to the way it was before but with a change in leadership.

Daenerys doesn't care. She has already legalized it in Yunkai and Astapor by the treaty she signed/was about to sign.  She just used it as an excuse to get the Unsullied for free. She went to a gun shop, told "hey, here's a suitcase full of diemounds, opals, topazes, jades etc for you, would you sell me your entire arsenal, fully loaded?" bought the guns and then killed them and took her payment back. She's a thief and a murderer. She even uses child labour in the form of Missandei and who knows how many others. She may be pretty but she's definitely not the nicest lady around that's for damn sure.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

Daenerys doesn't care. She has already legalized it in Yunkai and Astapor by the treaty she signed/was about to sign.  She just used it as an excuse to get the Unsullied for free. She went to a gun shop, told "hey, here's a suitcase full of diamounds, opals, topazes, jades etc for you, would you sell me your entire arsenal, fully loaded?" bought the guns and then killed them and took her payment back. She's a thief and a murderer. She even uses child labour in the form of Missandei and who knows how many others. She may be pretty but she's definitely not the nicest lady around that's for damn sure.

Ruling SB is a full time job. She can't just leave to go kill people in Westeros and expect nothing to happen in her absence, especially given what happened in Astapor. Astapor should have been a big wake up call for Daenerys but I don't think she will take the lesson from it.

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

The issue I see is that unless Daenerys brings in feudalism to the Bay, what system will there be to replace slavery? We've already seen that when left to their own devices the freed slaves just chose to bring back slavery again but with themselves as the masters. If Daenerys leaves for Westeros that could happen again and then it's just back to the way it was before but with a change in leadership.

What I think was missing from her programme was redistributing land from the masters to the freedmen.  If that is done, then I think a lot of the problems sort themselves out.

The mistake at Astapor was not leaving a garrison there (ignore the nonsense about "genocide" of the poor  human traffickers) to support the council she installed.

Cities that are well-garrisoned, with land redistributed to the freedmen, should be able to manage fine.  If they don't, (and some won't) that is very much down to them.

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

Daenerys doesn't care. She has already legalized it in Yunkai and Astapor by the treaty she signed/was about to sign.  She just used it as an excuse to get the Unsullied for free. She went to a gun shop, told "hey, here's a suitcase full of diemounds, opals, topazes, jades etc for you, would you sell me your entire arsenal, fully loaded?" bought the guns and then killed them and took her payment back. She's a thief and a murderer. She even uses child labour in the form of Missandei and who knows how many others. She may be pretty but she's definitely not the nicest lady around that's for damn sure.

Human beings are not guns.  The slaves of Astapor were never the Good Masters' to sell in the first place.

That is a terrible analogy.

Everyone in this world uses "child labour",  It is not a prosperous modern democracy in which children go to school and university.  Children work, bear arms, and marry.

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, SeanF said:

What I think was missing from her programme was redistributing land from the masters to the freedmen.  If that is done, then I think a lot of the problems sort themselves out.

The mistake at Astapor was not leaving a garrison there (ignore the nonsense about "genocide" of the poor  human traffickers) to support the council she installed.

Cities that are well-garrisoned, with land redistributed to the freedmen, should be able to manage fine.  If they don't, (and some won't) that is very much down to them.

But couldn't the freemen just enslave the masters again to work the land? Would there even be enough land to go around? 

Not leaving a garrison at Astapor seems like a big mistake even discounting the purpose of keeping the peace, how was Daenerys expecting the city to defend itself without a garrison?

[SeanF]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

But couldn't the freemen just enslave the masters again to work the land? Would there even be enough land to go around? 

Not leaving a garrison at Astapor seems like a big mistake even discounting the purpose of keeping the peace, how was Daenerys expecting the city to defend itself without a garrison?

I expect that the masters will come to a brutal end in TWOW.  If not, they'd probably have to be resettled, or conscripted into her army or bureaucracy. 

Daenerys presumably did not realise just how riven with hatred Astapor was, and how a man like Cleon would exploit that hatred to come to power.

[Corvo the Crow]

19 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Ruling SB is a full time job. She can't just leave to go kill people in Westeros and expect nothing to happen in her absence, especially given what happened in Astapor. Astapor should have been a big wake up call for Daenerys but I don't think she will take the lesson from it.

There's no wake up call. She has already legalized slavery

Quote

 

Gold and gems were easy. "What else?"

"The Yunkai'i will resume slaving, as before. Astapor will be rebuilt, as a slave city. You will not interfere."

"The Yunkai'i resumed their slaving before I was two leagues from their city. Did I turn back? King Cleon begged me to join with him against them, and I turned a deaf ear to his pleas. I want no war with Yunkai. How many times must I say it? What promises do they require?"

 

Not just in Yunkai and Astapor either but also Meereen.

Quote

 

Dany was shocked. "They want to be slaves?"

"The ones who come are well spoken and gently born, sweet queen. Such slaves are prized. In the Free Cities they will be tutors, scribes, bed slaves, even healers and priests. They will sleep in soft beds, eat rich foods, and dwell in manses. Here they have lost all, and live in fear and squalor."

"I see." Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. "Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman." She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife."

"In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands," Missandei told her.

"We'll do the same," Dany decided. Wars were won with gold as much as swords. "A tenth part. In gold or silver coin, or ivory. Meereen has no need of saffron, cloves, or zorse hides."

 

Dany is a hypocrite.

[astarkchoice]

5 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

young dragons are comparatively easy to kill, they will spread but probably not as far as you think due to infighting

now southern westeros is still fucked regardless

The fact they fly and can eat what they want means theyl probably spread all over planetos! Minus the magics, knowledge and counter beasties of old to stop them!

[SeanF]

6 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

There's no wake up call. She has already legalized slavery

Not just in Yunkai and Astapor either but also Meereen.

Dany is a hypocrite.

Yet, the freedmen are overwhelmingly on her side, and don't want the masters back.  Why do you think that is?

You're also ignoring the fact that as of ADWD, she is not the ruler of Astapor or Yunkai.  These cities are hundreds of miles away from her own kingdom.

As for Meereen, Xaro is complaining to Dany that there are no slaves for sale there.

[Corvo the Crow]

23 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Human beings are not guns.  The slaves of Astapor were never the Good Masters' to sell in the first place.

That is a terrible analogy.

Everyone in this world uses "child labour",  It is not a prosperous modern democracy in which children go to school and university.  Children work, bear arms, and marry.

If they are not property and therefore are not good masters to sell, then how is it possible that they can be bought? Dany the unshackler begs to differ(edit: poor choice of words since she was sister to beggar king):

Quote

"I see." Perhaps it was not so shocking, if these tales of Astapor were true. Dany thought a moment. "Any man who wishes to sell himself into slavery may do so. Or woman." She raised a hand. "But they may not sell their children, nor a man his wife."

"In Astapor the city took a tenth part of the price, each time a slave changed hands," Missandei told her.

"We'll do the same," Dany decided.

Not just once either, but numerous times she does.

Quote

A former slave came, to accuse a certain noble of the Zhak. The man had recently taken to wife a freedwoman who had been the noble's bedwarmer before the city fell. The noble had taken her maidenhood, used her for his pleasure, and gotten her with child. Her new husband wanted the noble gelded for the crime of rape, and he wanted a purse of gold as well, to pay him for raising the noble's bastard as his own. Dany granted him the gold, but not the gelding. "When he lay with her, your wife was his property, to do with as he would. By law, there was no rape." Her decision did not please him, she could see, but if she gelded every man who ever forced a bedslave, she would soon rule a city of eunuchs.

Daenerys clearly doesn't think the way you do and her committing the genocide of Astapori was just so he could get her hands on some unsullied, slave liberation was just an excuse for it, she allows slavery in other cities, introduces a milder form of it in her own city, and treats human beings as though they were property.

[Corvo the Crow]

11 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Yet, the freedmen are overwhelmingly on her side, and don't want the masters back.  Why do you think that is?

You're also ignoring the fact that as of ADWD, she is not the ruler of Astapor or Yunkai.  These cities are hundreds of miles away from her own kingdom.

As for Meereen, Xaro is complaining to Dany that there are no slaves for sale there.

I'm sorry, I thought she (supposedly) was antislavery and was enforcing her will on the subject through whatever violence she deemed fit, in fact these hundreds of miles away cities were the cities that she passed through and used violence before eventually coming to Meereen. She had no trouble covering those hundreds of miles when she was going to Meereen, why is it a problem for her now? BTW, Braavos isn't the ruler of Pentos either but they disallowed slavery there. Dany is doing much the same, in reverse though, as she's allowing it. Are Braavosi allowed to sell themselves in Braavos? I doubt it for some reason.

[SeanF]

Just now, Corvo the Crow said:

If they are not property and therefore are not good masters to sell, then how is it possible that they can be bought? Dany the unshackler begs to differ:

Not just once either, but numerous times she does.

Daenerys clearly doesn't think the way you do and her committing the genocide of Astapori was just so he could get her hands on some unsullied, slave liberation was just an excuse for it, she allows slavery in other cities, introduces a milder form of it in her own city, and treats human beings as though they were property.

What Daenerys was doing was double-crossing a group of human traffickers, in order to free their victims.  54,000 of them left the city with her.  You may think that freeing these people was wrong.  I do not.

Following the fall of Meereen, a group of "gently born" Meereenese (ie not slaves) wanted to sell themselves to a Qartheen trader.  That this was a one-off transaction is obvious from Xaro's complaint that there no slaves for purchase in Meereen.

Daenerys' decision regarding the noble and the bed-slave was a fair one.  She's not going to geld thousands of men, just as she's not going to punish slaves for killing their masters in the uprising.    But, the noble does have to pay for the maintenance of his son. What was the alternative?

[SeanF]

2 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

I'm sorry, I thought she (supposedly) was antislavery and was enforcing her will on the subject through whatever violence she deemed fit, in fact these hundreds of miles away cities were the cities that she passed through and used violence before eventually coming to Meereen. She had no trouble covering those hundreds of miles when she was going to Meereen, why is it a problem for her now? BTW, Braavos isn't the ruler of Pentos either but they disallowed slavery there. Dany is doing much the same, in reverse though, as she's allowing it. Are Braavosi allowed to sell themselves in Braavos? I doubt it for some reason.

You have forgotten that there's a huge army and navy, under the control of the slavers, sitting between Meereen and these cities.  She can't teleport soldiers to Astapor and Yunkai.

[Corvo the Crow]

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

What Daenerys was doing was double-crossing a group of human traffickers, in order to free their victims.  54,000 of them left the city with her.  You may think that freeing these people was wrong.  I do not.

 

Uh-huh yeah, whatever you say. I've told you several times over now, if you are just going to go this route of lying and slandering, don't answer.

[Corvo the Crow]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

You're the one who has called her a thief and murderer for double-crossing the Good Masters and freeing their victims.

Every time you get called out on the unpleasantness of your arguments, you whine about being slandered. 

 

And has she not killed and stole? Try as you may, you can't find a single post of mine stating that freeing slaves are wrong, all my post that you have purposefully bent and twisted in the past were about the wrong doings of Dany and not a single one of them were about freeing slaves being bad but I can provide and have provided numerous quotes proving the things I have said. I get that you are a Dany "enthusiast" and I know their ways but that doesn't give you the right to lie and slander about people when you can't "win" the debate fairly. 

[SeanF]

5 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said:

And has she not killed and stole? Try as you may, you can't find a single post of mine stating that freeing slaves are wrong, all my post that you have purposefully bent and twisted in the past were about the wrong doings of Dany and not a single one of them were about freeing slaves being bad but I can provide and have provided numerous quotes proving the things I have said. I get that you are a Dany "enthusiast" and I know their ways but that doesn't give you the right to lie and slander about people when you can't "win" the debate fairly. 

There you go again.  Using force to free slaves  is "stealing" and "murder" in your eyes.  Killing human traffickers is "genocide" in your eyes.  These are all terms that are loaded in favour of the slavers, and against their victims. These are the kind of arguments that a Southern planter would have made .   

 

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight9]

If Catelyn and Tyrion were fated to meet, it should have been much norther that at the Inn of the Crossroards, and rather closer to Riverrun or Moat Cailin at worst. 

[Mourning Star]

14 hours ago, Nevets said:

Not to derail things too much with the Mance hired the catspaw theory but:

1. The bag of silver.  Yes, he had a bag of silver.  It was for travel expenses.  In fact, he tells Jon he used part of it to buy a horse.  He probably had other expenses coming and going.  He can't join Robert's train, they're from the wrong direction.  He could also use the money to buy people drinks, gamble, and otherwise gain intelligence.  If he still has enough left over to pay the catspaw 90 stags, he must have started with a damn big bag.

Mance Rayder paid for a horse? Maybe, but it has to be just as likely that he stole it. Even so, I see no reason to doubt that Mance has access to enough silver to afford a horse, food, and a catspaw assassin.

Mance explicitly fell in with Robert's company south of Winterfell. While it's certainly possible Mance is telling Jon lies, this seems to me like an odd detail to include but lie about.

A day south of Winterfell I came up on him and fell in with his company.

14 hours ago, Nevets said:

2. The dagger.  While valuable, the dagger is probably one of the least distinctive in Robert's collection.  Its handle and blade are both unmarked.  We don't know if it is unique, one of a handful, or if there are dozens like it floating around.  A stranger could not know how identifiable it was.  And there is no assurance, or even a reason, for it to be left behind.

The dagger is immediately recognizable, it is unique (there are not dozens like it, very explicitly), and there is clearly a reason to leave it behind if the whole point is to cause strife south of the Wall. Rodrik, a stranger to the dagger, immediately noticed it was special.

"Your proof is in the dagger," Ser Rodrik said. "A fine blade like that will not have gone unnoticed."

The assassin was already paid, so I would argue the only reason for the assassin to have the dagger at all was because it was intended to be left behind.

Only a fool would arm a common footpad with his own blade.

...

I seem to remember that dagger, now that you describe it.