EggBlue Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Rhaegar Targaryen is one of the characters I can never make up my mind about . he is generally known as the guy who was obsessed with silly prophecies and is usually mocked by fandom either as the nerd who screwed up because of his obsession or as the lovestruck prince who acted selfishly . but is that fair ? first of all , I do not think it's a case of love story or selfishness when it comes to Rhaegar's actions during the last year of his life . rather I believe it is mostly about obsession. but what fuels this obsession ? ..... well , here are some canon facts combined with some of my impressions from the text , and of course some guesses . - Rhaegar , the dreamer . we know Rhaegar was a troubled child , deeply depressed and melancholy . he had no friends , he didn't practice in the yard or play with his peers and he only hid behind his scrolls . looking back at one of the most famous Targaryen dreamers , Daeron the drunken , we see what effect overwhelming prophetical dreams can have on someone . and it appears that Rhaegar was having the same problem .. he just dealt with it differently . - Childhood Depression . Aerys and Rhaella were respectively 15 and 14 when Rhaegar was born , making them unfit for parenthood right from the start . furthermore , Rhaegar's birth also brought about the death of most of their family members and friends . one could assume no matter how much they loved their son , the fact that his birthday coincided with the tragedy of Summerhall made it less than thrilling for them to enjoy their son's company all that much . what is more , if Rhaella's pregnancy dates are anything to go by , they were too busy trying , failing and grieving for lost spare heirs . - maester Aemon's influence and the Prince that was Promised . correspondence between Rhaegar and Aemon is quite curious . I think Rhaegar initiated this friendship . remember Rhaegar's unhappy parents married to produce the prince that was promised . there is no way that they never mentioned this to their only child ! add in horrifying dragon dreams as a catalyst and you have a frightened kid who reaches out to supposedly the wisest man in the family who confirms anything that he might doubt about his dreams , his scrolls or his parents' prophecies . then , he would share Aemon's belief when he is young . then he might consider becoming a warrior if that's what fate has in order for him . - the lack of faith and Viserys's birth . Aemon tells us that that Rhaegrar shared his belief about tPtwP when he was young . well , technically , Rhaegar was young all his life ! he died at 23-24 ! when you refer to the period of youth , you deffinitely don't mean "before he saw the red comet and changed his mind"! so , it's fair to assume there was a lack of consistency in Rhaegar's belief in the whole concept . a period of time that he neither thought he was tPtwP , nor his son. but what Aemon means by youth? I can only guess Rhaegar's youth would be before his manhood age , 16 . Rhaegar was 17 when Viserys was born . the thing about being the only child of a union with the sole purpose of producing tPtwP is that every new sibling that dies put more responsibility on the only child , making him believe that he is the unique fruit of that union . especially if your birthday could so easily be seen as an ominous sign . better be the destined hero than the bad omen . however by the time Viserys is born , Rhaegar is no longer the youngster Aemon spoke of . his belief has likely withered . he is no longer isolated and at least has 2 friends in Arthur and Jon . and his dreams might just be less frequent and less vivid . and finally Viserys's birth prove that he may not be that special person that his parents and old uncle suspected . - Further Daddy issues and the escape route . in a way , Rhaegar might be the character that most resembles a lot of us fantasy fans . of course , we have great taste and wild imaginations (our theories prove that ) . but for a lot of people fiction works as an escape from RL problems . and gods, does Rhaegar as a prince have problems to want to escape from! it should be the most frustrating thing to be legally the second most powerful man in the continent and yet cannot protect your own mother , wife or children from your very loving father who hates your guts and would surely murder you on the spot if you try anything! of course , Rhaegar would prefer going back to his books and believe he has a certain destiny and all the shit that's happening right now is temporary and he should wait it out! - the Bleeding Star . as said earlier , I've come to the conclusion that Rhaegar was no longer had full faith in the prophecy . but as stated in the previous point , he was in the right mindset to be influenced by the prophecy yet again . and so it's important to detect when exactly Rhaegar saw the comet . from what must have been Rhaegar's own letter to Aemon , we know that the comet was seen above Kingslanding the night Aegon was conceived . so Rhaegar must have been in Kingslanding , which is not usual for him , considering he fled to Dragonstone with his wife to be away from the king . knowing Rhaenys was born in the end of 280, Aegon was born by the end of 281 or early in 282 and Elia was bedridden for 6 months after Rhaenys's birth . so , I'm assuming that Rhaegar had waited for Elia to make the journey and then they presented Rhaenys to the court . as we know from the world book , that event was the lowest point in Rhaegar's relationship with his father , destroying any chance of reconciliation . one could imagine Rhaegar and Elia witnessed the oddest comet they had ever seen right after a hot sex and then several weeks later when Elia announces that she's pregnant , everything comes together for Rhaegar and he becomes convinced that the red comet is the bleeding star and the sign of hope and the sign that his unborn son is the prince that was promised . I bet he was especially overjoyed seeing the newborn's gender , thinking "ha! I was right . it is a son.." - the Targaryen curse/gift . is it fair to judge Targaryens for believing in their dreams and trying to interpret them ? Daenys saw the doom of Valyria and her family planned accordingly . thinking about Daenys's dream and Daenerys's dream and the mad Targaryens' dreams , including Aerys, Aerion or even Daemon II and Rhaegar , are the mad Targs' dreams really crazier than that of Daenys's or Daenerys's ??? I mean , think about it , Daenerys walked into fire because she dreamt a bunch of things and she knew it'll be fine ! and completely randomly , it was ! likewise , Aerion madman Brightflame knew he'll become a dragon if he swallows fire! sounds to me Rhaegar's actions were the safest , most rational ones compared to those of his ancestors or his sister's ! conclusion : despite dying before canon , Rhaegar is an important character to the series , so I thought getting to know why he was like he was would be fun . basically, I wrote all that because I think Rhaegar's one of the misjudged characters in the series . well , him and Brandon Stark who people have a range of opinions about from a rapist to a moron ! maybe that guy deserves a thread too! so , what do you think? why the hell was Rhaegar the way he was ? and what the hell was he thinking?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 What child doesn't want to be a hero? Rhaegar just wasn't able to grow out of it, because, you know, his father is a mass murdering mad man and his wife being "delicate" in her health didn't help either, so he needed a safe space to hide from the harsh realities of his life! Joke aside, trying to read long posts really hurt my eyes because of whitish background (are we even able to change it?) so I'll be reading this piecemeal before an answer. Edit: Upon reading it, my joke sure seems to have been Rhaegar's reality(or fictionality since he's a work of fiction, but whatever) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phylum of Alexandria Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Great post! I agree that Rhaegar is misunderstood, but that's almost certainly by design. Even within the first few chapters of AGOT, we get conflicting, incompatible accounts of Rhaegar: did he kidnap and rape Lyanna; or did he fight and die for the woman who loved him? Could both be true in some way? So much is still quite murky even 2/3 into the story, but what we have learned about Rhaegar paints a more complicated picture. I think this is how GRRM introduces his larger theme of "the hero can also be the villain, because all people are capable of good and bad, and powerful people can easily do both wonderful and terrible things, no matter what their intentions might be." But rather than give us a lame run-on sentence like the one I wrote, he chooses this conflicting account of Rhaegar as the central mystery of his story, which as it unfolds reveals that plenty of other characters fit this theme as well. After reading about Summerhall and the circumstances surrounding his birth, his melancholy made a lot more sense to me. As you say, he lives his days not only with the guilt of his own life weighing on him, but then there is the pressure to make it all worth the mass-death of his family by fulfilling his role as TPTWP. And while Aerys may not have gone mad by that point, Summerhall and marital unhappiness probably made him a cruel little shit as a father. I wouldn't put it past him to say something like: "You better make your life worth all of our misery. Prince That Was Promised? Seems more like an empty promise. Our house wiped out for nothing." I'm not sure if Rhaegar had prophetic dreams (is there text that indicates it?), but it's more likely than not, at least at some point in his life. The more I learn about him, the more he seems to be like Joshua York from Fevre Dream, and to a lesser extent like Jaan from Dying of the Light, who also has some Mance mixed in. Neither of those characters did anything out of malice, but both could be guilty of misjudgment or failing to do what they tried to do. They are all dreamers wracked by the difficulty and messiness of reality. And at least in once instance, the character's reliance on prophecy was keeping the prophecy from ever coming true, because (thematically, at least), he had to put in the work, and try and try despite repeatedly failing. Given that Rhaegar's not the central character of the story, only the central mystery, my guess is that he will ultimately be a man who had the best intentions, but relied too much on the stories and songs. He made a choice in a difficult situation, and it went horrendously wrong. He then became a song and a story. Or several, really, serving as both hero and villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 1 hour ago, Phylum of Alexandria said: I'm not sure if Rhaegar had prophetic dreams (is there text that indicates it?), but it's more likely than not, at least at some point in his life. none . but his urgency in actions after Aegon's birth makes me think there must have been more to his worries than books , letters and daddy's promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 As much as I shit on Rhaegar and Lyanna’s decision to run away together (Rhaegar should get most of the blame considering he is a grown man running away with a teenager) it was probably done because Rhaegar had prophetic dreams mixed with knowledge from the Ghost of High Heart, and probable stories of Aegon’s prophecy. So I do think he thought he was saving the world, and in all likelihood he did save the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day the palace burned to the ground (his poor mother) and killed much of his family. It's reported that Maester Aemon though Rhaegar was the PTWP. So, Rhaegar, as a sensitive person, how much guilt did he have about Summerhall burning as soon as he came into the world? Plus, being told by a wise uncle, a Maester, that he was the PTWP sounds like a heavy burden for a child to carry. Can't help but feel that to really understand Rhaegar one would need to have more, much more info on Summerhall before it burned. Would knowing what was happening at Summerhall before, during and after it burned help to understand the Prince? Perhaps, perhaps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corvo the Crow Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 3 minutes ago, LongRider said: Rhaegar was born at Summerhall on the day the palace burned to the ground (his poor mother) and killed much of his family. It's reported that Maester Aemon though Rhaegar was the PTWP. So, Rhaegar, as a sensitive person, how much guilt did he have about Summerhall burning as soon as he came into the world? Plus, being told by a wise uncle, a Maester, that he was the PTWP sounds like a heavy burden for a child to carry. Can't help but feel that to really understand Rhaegar one would need to have more, much more info on Summerhall before it burned. Would knowing what was happening at Summerhall before, during and after it burned help to understand the Prince? Perhaps, perhaps. He was so sensitive of the deaths he didn't even cause himself that he went on and started an event that caused a continent wide killing spree? Rhaegar is part of the nobility, he very well knew the outcome of his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 Just now, Corvo the Crow said: He was so sensitive of the deaths he didn't even cause himself that he went on and started an event that caused a continent wide killing spree? Rhaegar is part of the nobility, he very well knew the outcome of his actions. Probably because he had prophetical visions that he needed Lyanna to save the world. Which normally would make him insane, but in ASOAIF it probably did end up saving the world. Jon will be the main hero in the war with the Others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EggBlue Posted January 9, 2023 Author Share Posted January 9, 2023 I don't think Rhaegar had thought of the consequences of his actions . not that we know exactly what he had done ! I mean GRRM has given us little enough info on Rhaegar and his actions that despite the fact that we can come up with a couple of good guesses , he can totally disregard everything that we are sure about . that includes some of Rhaegar's motivations (three heads of Dragon) and even some of his actions ( fathering Jon ) . as for Rhaegar never thinking about the price he was paying , that's the result of prophecy built confidence and frantic beliefs . his burden , sensitivity and frustration (mixed with urgent dreams) also put him in a position to act rash and consider doing almost anything for the greater good , including rape , abduction , blood sacrifice , etc . basically "better men than Stannis had done worst things than Stannis" stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongRider Posted January 9, 2023 Share Posted January 9, 2023 20 minutes ago, Corvo the Crow said: He was so sensitive of the deaths he didn't even cause himself that he went on and started an event that caused a continent wide killing spree? Rhaegar is part of the nobility, he very well knew the outcome of his actions. He grew up knowing the fire happened on his birthday and at his birthplace. OK, pretty heavy stuff. Uncle tells you that you are the fulfillment of a prophesy and you're going to save the world! The later, he thinks Uncle is full of shit and it's his own son who will fulfill the PTWP prophesy, only he needs three babies not one. Doesn't sound like a stable upbringing to me. The OP is about the roots of Rhaegar's obsession, I think Summerhall and PTWP prophesy/myth are part of that root system and was not good for his mental health. Ninga'd, leaving it in anyway. Plus, who can see fully the unexpected consequences of their rash actions? He underestimated Robert Baratheon, me thinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King_Tristifer_IV_Mudd Posted January 10, 2023 Share Posted January 10, 2023 7 minutes ago, LongRider said: He grew up knowing the fire happened on his birthday and at his birthplace. OK, pretty heavy stuff. Uncle tells you that you are the fulfillment of a prophesy and you're going to save the world! The later, he thinks Uncle is full of shit and it's his own son who will fulfill the PTWP prophesy, only he needs three babies not one. Doesn't sound like a stable upbringing to me. The OP is about the roots of Rhaegar's obsession, I think Summerhall and PTWP prophesy/myth are part of that root system and was not good for his mental health. /cdn-cgi/mirage/6dc3d3eb1a38505cabd90fb7ffd43995f14702a0df4cf40d6136ae67a48e140e/1280/https://asoiaf.westeros.org/uploads/emoticons/default_ninja.gif Ninga'd, leaving it in anyway. Plus, who can see fully the unexpected consequences of their rash actions? He underestimated Robert Baratheon, me thinks. It wasn’t Robert, but the Starks. Robert being pissed off, he could’ve worked with as King. But the way they ran off, without telling anyone, how could the Starks interpret it any other way than a married Prince kidnapped Lyanna. And of course Brandon was furious, and then Brandon ran into Aerys, the mad fuck. And Rickard had to know going into KL that he was probably dead, but he wanted to save his son. As much blame as Rhaegar deserves for the war, Aerys is the one who made it unavoidable and necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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