Is anything Mushroom said true?

[King Maegor the Cool]

I know Fire & Blood is meant to be unreliable but for it to have merit some of it needs to be right. And I doubt everything Mushroom said is wrong or an outright lie

[KingStoneheart]

I’m currently doing my first reread of it and to be honest, I think the majority of things that Mushroom says did happen in some sort of way. His crude mind has just added some additional information

[Curled Finger]

Mushroom is an interesting source to cite in a history book.  Forget the fact that Rhaenyra is supposed to have been stricken from being named queen in the histories.  Gotta ask yourself why Mushroom?  He says the most inflammatory lascivious things every time.  Until the very end where even a thick headed castle wall such as me can see how much he loved Rhaenyra.  I don't think he just realized that at the end when she was gone.  I think he always loved her deeply.  Armed with this information I try to go back and read his scathing statements with that in mind.  What is he trying to paint Rhaenyra as when he insinuates she took seduction lessons in order to nail Criston Cole?  (Misguided innocence? True Love?)  What is he trying to do for Rhaenyra when he hints that Daemon may have taken Alicent's maidenhead? (More misguided innocence?  Alicent has no virtue?) 

Among the strangest claims Mushroom makes is that he partook in the seduction lessons.  That made my head spin...until I realized his great love for Rhaenyra.  I doubt it happened, but I bet he watched and wished he was part of the training.  And not in any particularly unsavory way, either.  I think it was a simple case of wanting a fully fleshed out (fantasy of) love in Mushroom's case with Rhaenyra.  She may not have been the Realm's Delight her entire life.  But she was definitely Mushroom's.  

[Lord Varys]

Most of the Mushroom stuff is indeed nonsense. It is most obvious when his version would mean that people would have acted quite differently prior to and after the events that allegedly took place.

Some of Mushroom's conclusions and theories might be accurate, though. Like his take on the true parentage of the Hull boys (which isn't something he says he witnessed or was a part of, but rather something he figured out using his brains).

50 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

What is he trying to do for Rhaenyra when he hints that Daemon may have taken Alicent's maidenhead? (More misguided innocence?  Alicent has no virtue?) 

That tidbit was only in TRP and didn't find its way into FaB, so Mushroom never actually said that.

It certainly stands to reason that Rhaenyra was Mushroom's favorite royal (of the court of Viserys I and then during the Dance) since he lived with her on Dragonstone, but I'm not sure that this figured all that much into the stories he later told that scribe. It was years or decades later, and he was likely paid good coin for telling really fun and tantalizing and scandalous stories. So his need for coin and fame might have played more into all that than whatever old feelings he may have yet for any long-dead Targaryens. Even more since Mushroom did actually not like Rhaenyra's son Aegon III all that much - which caused him to leave KL and may have actually resulted in his career taking many unpleasant twists and turns.

Especially in the case of famous stories like the thing between Rhaenyra and Criston Cole you see Mushroom really went out of his way to give that another, even more ridiculous spin. We know from the AFfC that the story about their secret affair/romance has been passed down to Arianne and Arys Oakheart in yet other versions than the ones given by Gyldayn. People know about it from other sources than Mushroom, meaning this was likely a well-known rumor when Mushroom told his tales.

You also have the sensationalist angle with the death of Beesbury. If other people tell it differently, then Mushroom has to add more gore.

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Most of the Mushroom stuff is indeed nonsense. It is most obvious when his version would mean that people would have acted quite differently prior to and after the events that allegedly took place.

Some of Mushroom's conclusions and theories might be accurate, though. Like his take on the true parentage of the Hull boys (which isn't something he says he witnessed or was a part of, but rather something he figured out using his brains).

That tidbit was only in TRP and didn't find its way into FaB, so Mushroom never actually said that.

It certainly stands to reason that Rhaenyra was Mushroom's favorite royal (of the court of Viserys I and then during the Dance) since he lived with her on Dragonstone, but I'm not sure that this figured all that much into the stories he later told that scribe. It was years or decades later, and he was likely paid good coin for telling really fun and tantalizing and scandalous stories. So his need for coin and fame might have played more into all that than whatever old feelings he may have yet for any long-dead Targaryens. Even more since Mushroom did actually not like Rhaenyra's son Aegon III all that much - which caused him to leave KL and may have actually resulted in his career taking many unpleasant twists and turns.

 

All true, and yah, it's so easy to forget what happened in which story and made it where.  A thousand pardons.  Another thing that occurred to me post script was that Mushroom may have been purposefully muddying waters to protect Rhaenyra in some weird misguided way.  I was thinking about Jace's trip to the Vale, The Sisters and Winterfell.  Starts with that preposterous bit with Jane Arryn, a quiet win in the Sisters then utter chaos in Winterfell, at least according to Mushroom.  We get in all after the fact but I wonder if Mushroom was coming up with all of this as raven poured in.  Raven 1:  Dear Mom, Lord Cregan is a jerk and doesn't like me.  This is a weird place, but beautiful country.  They have hot springs Vermax sticks close to.  How do you feel about marrying the baby off?  Do you need another lady in waiting by chance?  I'm stuck here a while.  Love you lots.  

The council deflates so Mushroom begins a spin campaign of his own and starts the Sara Snow rumor making the talks in the north appear to be going far better than they are.  Or the clutch rumor intimating a sort of northern base because the Blacks are so tight with the Winterfell.  

I get that Mushroom was a fool.  But maybe he wasn't stupid is all I'm getting to. 

[King Maegor the Cool]

I just think it’s pointless to include him if NOTHING he said was true

[Lord Varys]

9 minutes ago, King Maegor the Cool said:

I just think it’s pointless to include him if NOTHING he said was true

As I said, most of his stories are funny tales that are likely not true. They are there to entertain, like, say, the one about Jace and Jeyne Arryn or the one about himself trying to mount Silverwing. And everything that features his member we cannot really take seriously.

The instances where I'd take him at his word are actually very few. Many things he says are also kind of irrelevant - I mean, yes, perhaps his description of baby Visenya is accurate ... or perhaps not. We cannot know.

@Curled Finger

If you want you can view Mushroom's story about Daemon not deflowering Rhaenyra but merely helping her to try and seduce Criston Cole as him kind of defending her honor since the crucial thing is her maidenhead and not how much porn she watched or how much petting she did.

But then - he also claimed that he found her and Harwin Strong together after he had taken her maidenhead, so there is not much defence there.

Gyldayn claims that Mushroom liked Rhaenyra well and Septon Eustace didn't - but I actually don't think the stories of both Gyldayn gives us properly reflect that. Eustace likes to foreshadow Rhaenyra's doom with his cutting stories and he mocks her for her girth and eating habits, but aside from that he seems to be pretty fair to her. Mushroom on the other hand completely destroys her reputation with his tales about her obsession with Criston Cole, her later affairs and the parentage of her elder sons. Not to mention the tale about the brothel queens he spins. If that indicates him liking her then I don't want to know what Mushroom says about somebody he loathed.

[King Maegor the Cool]

1 minute ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said, most of his stories are funny tales that are likely not true. They are there to entertain, like, say, the one about Jace and Jeyne Arryn or the one about himself trying to mount Silverwing. And everything that features his member we cannot really take seriously.

The instances where I'd take him at his word are actually very few. Many things he says are also kind of irrelevant - I mean, yes, perhaps his description of baby Visenya is accurate ... or perhaps not. We cannot know.

@Curled Finger

If you want you can view Mushroom's story about Daemon not deflowering Rhaenyra but merely helping her to try and seduce Criston Cole as him kind of defending her honor since the crucial thing is her maidenhead and not how much porn she watched or how much petting she did.

But then - he also claimed that he found her and Harwin Strong together after he had taken her maidenhead, so there is not much defence there.

Gyldayn claims that Mushroom liked Rhaenyra well and Septon Eustace didn't - but I actually don't think the stories of both Gyldayn gives us properly reflect that. Eustace likes to foreshadow Rhaenyra's doom with his cutting stories and he mocks her for her girth and eating habits, but aside from that he seems to be pretty fair to her. Mushroom on the other hand completely destroys her reputation with his tales about her obsession with Criston Cole, her later affairs and the parentage of her elder sons. Not to mention the tale about the brothel queens he spins. If that indicates him liking her then I don't want to know what Mushroom says about somebody he loathed.

Yeah the Brothel Queens story made no sense to me. Like I can’t imagine her being that cruel

[Sandy Clegg]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

 Gotta ask yourself why Mushroom?  He says the most inflammatory lascivious things every time. 

Side note: I love this word but I don't know anyone who can pronounce it correctly, including me.

[Curled Finger]

16 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

As I said, most of his stories are funny tales that are likely not true. They are there to entertain, like, say, the one about Jace and Jeyne Arryn or the one about himself trying to mount Silverwing. And everything that features his member we cannot really take seriously.

The instances where I'd take him at his word are actually very few. Many things he says are also kind of irrelevant - I mean, yes, perhaps his description of baby Visenya is accurate ... or perhaps not. We cannot know.

@Curled Finger

If you want you can view Mushroom's story about Daemon not deflowering Rhaenyra but merely helping her to try and seduce Criston Cole as him kind of defending her honor since the crucial thing is her maidenhead and not how much porn she watched or how much petting she did.

But then - he also claimed that he found her and Harwin Strong together after he had taken her maidenhead, so there is not much defence there.

Gyldayn claims that Mushroom liked Rhaenyra well and Septon Eustace didn't - but I actually don't think the stories of both Gyldayn gives us properly reflect that. Eustace likes to foreshadow Rhaenyra's doom with his cutting stories and he mocks her for her girth and eating habits, but aside from that he seems to be pretty fair to her. Mushroom on the other hand completely destroys her reputation with his tales about her obsession with Criston Cole, her later affairs and the parentage of her elder sons. Not to mention the tale about the brothel queens he spins. If that indicates him liking her then I don't want to know what Mushroom says about somebody he loathed.

Maybe Mushroom was as mad as all the players involved, too, Ser.  I find his comments an interesting addition to a very dark historical recounting.  This makes him rather singular and multifaceted to me.  As I am fond of saying the stories strike us all at different places.  I'm not trying to argue Mushroom's actual stance on anything here, only bring what I thought his take could have been.  This brothel queens thing being Mysaria's great idea, might have been spread to show how merciful Rhaenyra was for not following advice.  As in most things Martin, we don't get all the whole story.  Or maybe it's written so that we may make our own inferences.  Eustace and Gyldayn aren't particularly interested in telling a complete story.   

[Lord Varys]

Mushroom's book seems to be less a history and more a collection of fancyful anecdotes and tales. Eustace, Munkun, and eventually Gyldayn actually wrote plotted histories. While Eustace's work 'The Reign of King Viserys, the First of His Name, and the Dance of the Dragons That Came After' also focused on and/or included court gossip and 'secret/private history elements' it was still a detailed history of the reign of Viserys I and the subsequent Dance, meaning it was a work of some substance.

Mushroom's book, on the other hand, is titled 'The Testimony of Mushroom' and genre-wise would be more akin to Coryanne Wylde's 'A Caution for Young Girls' than a proper history since it clearly doesn't claim to tell the history of the reign of Viserys I or the Dance of the Dragons but is rather a kind of biography of Mushroom. The book doesn't end when Mushroom leaves court in 136 AC - it continues with Mushroom's other ribald exploits - like Coryanne Wylde's book covers not only her time with Jaehaerys and Alysanne on Dragonstone but also her later live in Essos.

While we don't have as detailed a textual history on the Testimony as we have for Coryanne's book ... we certainly are entitled to doubt the accuracy of the copies that remain. King Baelor the Blessed had the book burned, so apparently only a few copies remain, and most likely no originals. But like with Coryanne's book the original scribe of Mushroom's Testimony wouldn't have been a septon nor a maester but some mummer or other scribe-for-hire, possibly even in Essos where Mushroom spent his later life.

The chances that this book was accurately copied thereafter and not enlarged and changed like the copies of Coryanne's book were is not all that likely. That is - if we can actually be sure that the original manuscript actually contains Mushroom's own words and does not merely claim it does. After all, the book was not written by him, possibly because the guy was illiterate.

In any case, while we can expect that Eustace and especially Munkun's book do have a clear narrative structure, a plot, and perhaps even a methodology of sorts, I'd expect Mushroom's book to just contain a succession of anecdotes and ribald stories, perhaps not even in chronological order.

[FictionIsntReal]

GRRM has confirmed that Harwin did indeed father Rhaenyra's first three children:

https://wikiofthrones.com/george-r-r-martin-would-love-to-do-a-novella-about-rhaenyra-and-harwin-strong-and-their-relationship

Mushroom is the only source to outright say that was the case:

Quote

The whispering began again. Amongst the greens, it was an article of faith that the father of Rhaenyra’s sons was not her husband, Laenor, but her champion, Harwin Strong. Mushroom says as much in his Testimony and Grand Maester Mellos hints at it, whilst Septon Eustace raises the rumors only to dismiss them

The question of whether or not we could believe Mushroom on this topic has been debated here before:

 

Edited 2 hours ago by FictionIsntReal
Added link to earlier thread

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 3/19/2023 at 12:22 AM, King Maegor the Cool said:

I know Fire & Blood is meant to be unreliable but for it to have merit some of it needs to be right. And I doubt everything Mushroom said is wrong or an outright lie

I would say 90% of what Mushroom says is full truth or partial truth. 10% is just jokes. None of it is historically rigorous, and he has an obvious bias for Rhaenyra, but he was there for more of it than the other two (and honestly much less biased than Eustace). Maybe I like him because he was pro-Rhaenys and thus am more inclined to believe him, but I do think he was largely correct on the events of the Dance of the Dragons.