battle at summerhall

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:59 AM, direpupy said:

George himself has said they are seperate things  not stories, sothere is nothing convoluted about it.

He said they are two separate canons, showcanon and bookcanon, both more canon than fanfiction, both stories told in the same universe. They are objectively NOT two separate things as one is an adaptation of the other.

On 4/7/2023 at 12:59 AM, direpupy said:

She was literaly anouced as the replacement for Jeyne Westerling who they cut from the show, she was made to replace a book character and as such is not canon whatsoever.

But she's not the replacement for Jeyne Westerling, she's a completely different character than Jeyne Westerling. So this leaves her in kind of a greyzone ASOIAF world wise. "Does Talisa Maegyr exist" the answer is no, obviously, but she does in some canon of the story of ASOIAF, leaving her in this kind of nebulous "potentially canon" zone, I'm not using that as a technical term, just as "more" canon than semi-canon, and less canon than book canon. That's where Randyll's brother fits and Orys I. In a way that "Ellaria Sand is Tyene's mother" is NOT canon to the books because we know who Ellaria's children are, but we don't know who Malaquo's children are or if he has children or if those children are named Talisa. 

[direpupy]

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

He said they are two separate canons, showcanon and bookcanon, both more canon than fanfiction, both stories told in the same universe. They are objectively NOT two separate things as one is an adaptation of the other.

But she's not the replacement for Jeyne Westerling, she's a completely different character than Jeyne Westerling. So this leaves her in kind of a greyzone ASOIAF world wise. "Does Talisa Maegyr exist" the answer is no, obviously, but she does in some canon of the story of ASOIAF, leaving her in this kind of nebulous "potentially canon" zone, I'm not using that as a technical term, just as "more" canon than semi-canon, and less canon than book canon. That's where Randyll's brother fits and Orys I. In a way that "Ellaria Sand is Tyene's mother" is NOT canon to the books because we know who Ellaria's children are, but we don't know who Malaquo's children are or if he has children or if those children are named Talisa. 

I'm sorry but this whole universe thing to me just sounds like a weak excuse you are making up to justifie your fan-fiction. Talisa was created for the show when they cut out Jeyne Westerling from the material they used to make the show, so she is a replacement with a total not canon at all status for the books.

[GZ Bloodraven]

4 hours ago, direpupy said:

I'm sorry but this whole universe thing to me just sounds like a weak excuse you are making up to justifie your fan-fiction. Talisa was created for the show when they cut out Jeyne Westerling from the material they used to make the show, so she is a replacement with a total not canon at all status for the books.

It's about universe-building, not about fan-fiction. it's basically asking which fictions are more valid, and I think showcanon is more valid than fan-fiction. AND more valid than out-of-universe interviews or statements. Which leaves it in this showcanon, "there's a version of this story where things are different," middle space. Like, Talisa Maegyr is canon in a universe of A Song of Ice and Fire. What do you do with that info? I'm not sure, I think you stick her in a potentially canon zone. That's not my fanfiction though, I didn't make Talisa, I don't even like Talisa, but I do think that continuity between universe is important. 

[direpupy]

15 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

It's about universe-building, not about fan-fiction. it's basically asking which fictions are more valid, and I think showcanon is more valid than fan-fiction. AND more valid than out-of-universe interviews or statements. Which leaves it in this showcanon, "there's a version of this story where things are different," middle space. Like, Talisa Maegyr is canon in a universe of A Song of Ice and Fire. What do you do with that info? I'm not sure, I think you stick her in a potentially canon zone. That's not my fanfiction though, I didn't make Talisa, I don't even like Talisa, but I do think that continuity between universe is important. 

You can try to justifie it all you want but the fact is that this potentialy canon thing of yours is your fan-fiction, she is not universe canon there is no universe canon, she is show-canon and she is non-bookcanon

[GZ Bloodraven]

9 hours ago, direpupy said:

You can try to justifie it all you want but the fact is that this potentialy canon thing of yours is your fan-fiction, she is not universe canon there is no universe canon, she is show-canon and she is non-bookcanon

But I didn't write for Talisa, George did.

[direpupy]

11 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

But I didn't write for Talisa, George did.

I never said you did, if you read back and read carefully you will see that the fan-fiction i am refering to is the idea of a single shared universe, George has been very clear the two are seperate things and that he does not want nor is he going to incoorporate things from the show into the books. This is why there are two seperate canons, she is show-canon but will never be book-canon.

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:41 AM, direpupy said:

I never said you did, if you read back and read carefully you will see that the fan-fiction i am refering to is the idea of a single shared universe, George has been very clear the two are seperate things and that he does not want nor is he going to incoorporate things from the show into the books. This is why there are two seperate canons, she is show-canon but will never be book-canon.

On 4/9/2023 at 6:11 AM, direpupy said:

I'm sorry but this whole universe thing to me just sounds like a weak excuse you are making up to justifie your fan-fiction. Talisa was created for the show when they cut out Jeyne Westerling from the material they used to make the show, so she is a replacement with a total not canon at all status for the books.

Things in show canon are more canon than fanfiction. That just seems obvious. They are not book canon but they are potentially canon in a way that fanfiction or the MUSH is not. 

[Ran]

There are things on the MUSH that are straight from George. There are things on the TV show which definitely are not.

You are the only person who thinks this way about canon, so I think while you can view things however you like, I don't think you're winning anyone over to your point of view because it doesn't seem sensible.

[direpupy]

8 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

Things in show canon are more canon than fanfiction. That just seems obvious. They are not book canon but they are potentially canon in a way that fanfiction or the MUSH is not. 

I agree with Ran in post above you are they only one who thinks this way, which you have every right to do but i personnaly disagree with your point of view and so its seems does everyone else.

[GZ Bloodraven]

10 hours ago, direpupy said:

I agree with Ran in post above you are they only one who thinks this way, which you have every right to do but i personnaly disagree with your point of view and so its seems does everyone else.

That the show is more canon than fanfiction?

[direpupy]

13 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

That the show is more canon than fanfiction?

No, that you are they only one who thinks that show canon means that something is potentionaly canon for the books as well. Its they idea of the shared universe, having the same basic story does not mean there is a shared universe where things can cross over, they are two seperate things.

[GZ Bloodraven]

On 4/14/2023 at 12:26 AM, direpupy said:

No, that you are they only one who thinks that show canon means that something is potentionaly canon for the books as well. Its they idea of the shared universe, having the same basic story does not mean there is a shared universe where things can cross over, they are two seperate things.

I don't think they are in a shared universe, but I do think that show-only things should be considered more canon for the books than made-up fan things. Like they are two separate but canon universes, and that Randyll Tarly's brother is potentially canon for the books in a way that a fan-made character is not. I don't think Talisa Maegyr and a random character I come up with for a fanfiction, are equally not canon for the book universe. In other words, Talisa Maegyr is more canon for the book universe than a fanfiction character, though neither are truly canon or even semi-canon. But, again, I might be overthinking it. 

[Alester Florent]

I feel like the world would be a better place if nobody had ever thought of the idea of applying "canon" to narrative fiction.

[direpupy]

On 4/15/2023 at 10:52 PM, GZ Bloodraven said:

 I might be overthinking it. 

Yes you are

[CassDarry]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:52 PM, GZ Bloodraven said:

I don't think they are in a shared universe, but I do think that show-only things should be considered more canon for the books than made-up fan things. Like they are two separate but canon universes, and that Randyll Tarly's brother is potentially canon for the books in a way that a fan-made character is not. I don't think Talisa Maegyr and a random character I come up with for a fanfiction, are equally not canon for the book universe. In other words, Talisa Maegyr is more canon for the book universe than a fanfiction character, though neither are truly canon or even semi-canon. But, again, I might be overthinking it. 

Hhmm I can understand your point but I don't agree,

 

Maybe if you used show characters such as Karsi or Reginald Lannister as your "potentially canon" examples I could agree as there isn't any contradicting text.

But Talisa Stark or...Kinvara where they can't possibly have the same character in the books as in show even if in future works book characters with the name same.

For the original post, I liked the scene even though its a "Tarly" not a "Grafton" so jumped a few battles until Robert killed a man?? Also how I interpreted  it  it wasn't necessarily blood related to Tarly just a boy with a Tarly sigil.

[GZ Bloodraven]

6 hours ago, CassDarry said:

Maybe if you used show characters such as Karsi or Reginald Lannister as your "potentially canon" examples I could agree as there isn't any contradicting text.

But Talisa Stark or...Kinvara where they can't possibly have the same character in the books as in show even if in future works book characters with the name same.

For the original post, I liked the scene even though its a "Tarly" not a "Grafton" so jumped a few battles until Robert killed a man?? Also how I interpreted  it  it wasn't necessarily blood related to Tarly just a boy with a Tarly sigil.

Talisa Stark obviously isn't canon for the books, but we have no information about the extended book Maegyr family. Karsi or Reginald or Kinvara all fill corners of the world we know generally little about. They don't have the same stories, obviously, but the idea that they exist in the unseen corners of the world doesn't seem too farfetched to me.

On 4/12/2023 at 3:27 PM, Ran said:

You are the only person who thinks this way about canon, so I think while you can view things however you like, I don't think you're winning anyone over to your point of view because it doesn't seem sensible.

I think most people generally agree that showcanon is more canon than noncanon, and I do think it's sensible to have show-created characters be potentially canon for the books. Maybe that's unreasonable.

[direpupy]

6 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

I think most people generally agree that showcanon is more canon than noncanon, and I do think it's sensible to have show-created characters be potentially canon for the books. Maybe that's unreasonable.

Semi-canon, Mush and statements by George, are more canon then show where they diverted from the canon like there was no tomorow.

Also literaly all people on here disagreed with you, so where do you get the idea that most people support your view that show and books are the same universe and show canon is in any way canon for the books.

[GZ Bloodraven]

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Semi-canon, Mush and statements by George, are more canon then show where they diverted from the canon like there was no tomorow.

 

George interviews are out-of-universe statements on events, showcanon is in-alternate-universe course of events, 5 percent of which George wrote himself. I don't get how that isn't considered more canon, from a universe perspective, than out-of-universe interviews, that just doesn't make sense to me.

17 hours ago, direpupy said:

Also literaly all people on here disagreed with you, so where do you get the idea that most people support your view that show and books are the same universe and show canon is in any way canon for the books.

I don't think you support my view (I mean I think you should, obviously) but I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the adaptation of his novels, that George wrote for and executive produced, is partially canon for the books. In the sense that they both happened canonically in alternate universes. I guess I'll use Gone with the Wind as an example: Prissy's mom is Dilcey in the novel, but Dilcey is never mentioned in the movie. Does Dilcey exist in the movie? Potentially. Same for Talisa, Karsi, and Kinvara. 

[direpupy]

8 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

George interviews are out-of-universe statements on events, showcanon is in-alternate-universe course of events, 5 percent of which George wrote himself. I don't get how that isn't considered more canon, from a universe perspective, than out-of-universe interviews, that just doesn't make sense to me.

There is your problem, you are they only one who feels this way, so maybe you should consider that you are wrong.

8 hours ago, GZ Bloodraven said:

 don't think you support my view (I mean I think you should, obviously) but I don't think it is unreasonable to think that the adaptation of his novels, that George wrote for and executive produced, is partially canon for the books. 

Yes it is unreasonable seeing who much George distanced himself from the show in they end and has repeatedly stated they are two different entities.

[The hairy bear]

Westeros is not a shared universe. As such, it is only considered canon only what comes alone from GRRM.

We know that, although his opinion was listened to, he didn't say the final say on anything. We know that he disagreed with B&B in several adaptation choices. We know that, particularly on later seasons, his voice was ignored to the point that he did no longer contribute on the final seasons. We know that, even when he was contributing with scripts, whatever he wrote had to fit within B&B ideas of the show. And we know that they tampered with George's scripts (as everybody else's) and added material that wasn't his.

At the end, the series is B&B's story, not George's. And as such, it's not canon.