Tyrion is Tywin’s son - it’s in the eyes

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure there is variations in the darkness of blond hair.  The more blonde, the closer to white.  But that’s not just true for Targaryens, that’s true for anyone with blonde hair, including the Lannisters.

Some Lannisters have golden hair, some have blonde hair bordering on white.  Some Targaryens have gold in their hair, some have a lighter blonde merging on white, where the silver stands out.

It’s not really proof that Tyrion is Targaryen though, since his hair color is more easily explained through his Lannister heritage.

In fact this whole argument is a bit of a boot strapping.  Tyrion has never been described as having his “evil eye” the typical Targaryen color.  It’s never described as purple, or deep blue.  It’s always, always described as black.  

People have theorized that Tyrion may be part Targaryen due to Tyrion and Joanna’s stormy relationship with Aerys, and Tyrion’s own obsession with dragons.  As a result of that theory, some have theorized that Tyrion’s “black eye” is actually deep violet.  But it’s only a theory, not something that has been established in the books.  

Now, his eye is using this theory as “evidence” that Tyrion has Targaryen ancestry, which is literally the definition of a boot strapping argument.  

And the whole discussion doesn’t really take into account Tyrion’s black hair mixed in.  After all, none of Aerys’ descendants had black hair to our knowledge.

So the issue is, where did Tyrion get his “black eye” and his black hair?  

For all it's worth Jon's eyes are so grey they are nearly black.  That's odd.  How do you get eyes that dark a grey?  Euron has mismatched eyes, blue and black, I think.  Is it really black or a color so dark it looks black?  Could it be purple?  (Jon's eyes was the first time I was exposed to the black being purple idea.)  Lots of Targs had black hair.  They weren't all Valyrian in appearance.  Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was, had black hair as her mother was half Baratheon.  She was 3/4 Targ and that black came right through.    

Brother, there is no proof of anything, just speculation.  Take it or leave it.  In the end, we of limited imagination have not come up with anything other than dragon riding being a Targ might be good for.   There are dark haired Targs with eyes from blue to violet.  The Targs have been intermarrying for 300 years.  

That last tiny bit for Tyrion being a Targ is how his birth mirrors Jon and Dany's.  All the moms died in childbirth.  Lyanna is said to have been raped by Rhaegar and Rhaella was brutalized by Aerys.  One could stand firm on the Aerys Joanna thing and feel another similarity was reached in Tyrion...

[Frey family reunion]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

For all it's worth Jon's eyes are so grey they are nearly black.  That's odd.  How do you get eyes that dark a grey?

Why is that odd?  Grey comes in different shades from light grey to dark grey and everything in between.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Euron has mismatched eyes, blue and black, I think.  Is it really black or a color so dark it looks black?  Could it be purple? 

Maybe everyone with black eyes are purple.  But since we’re never given a POV where Euron is seen without his eyepatch I guess we’ll just have to take Theon’s memory for it.  (I think it’s Theon that says his other eye is black).

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Rhaenys, the Queen Who Never Was, had black hair as her mother was half Baratheon.  She was 3/4 Targ and that black came right through. 

Sure there is an explanation for why Rhaenys had black hair.  She inherited it from her mother.  There is an explanation for why Baelor Breakspear had dark hair, he inherited it from his Dornish mother.  We just don’t know why a match between Aerys and Joanna, would result in a kid with partly black hair.  

Maybe it was from Black Betha peeking through many generations later.  I dunno.  Or maybe if Tywin was cucked it might not have been by Aerys.  But regardless, my point is that there is nothing about Tyrion’s physical appearance that points to  a Targaryen heritage.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Take it or leave it.  In the end, we of limited imagination have not come up with anything other than dragon riding being a Targ might be good for.

Surely we can come up with something more interesting than that.

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

That last tiny bit for Tyrion being a Targ is how his birth mirrors Jon and Dany's.  All the moms died in childbirth.  Lyanna is said to have been raped by Rhaegar and Rhaella was brutalized by Aerys.  One could stand firm on the Aerys Joanna thing and feel another similarity was reached in Tyrion...

I thought the prevailing wisdom was that Rhaegar didn’t actually rape Layanna, that it was much more consensual.  (At least as consensual as a young girl being lured away from her family could be).

But regardless, I guess, if there was a sexual relationship between Aerys and Joanna it was probably a rape.  At the very least it had to be done after his public comment to Joanna wondering about the current state of her breasts.  It just seems odd that Aerys could have done it, especially in Lannisport without word getting back to Tywin.  And if Tywin was aware of it, it seems unlikely that he would have gone back to being Aerys Hand, or that a few years later, he would be trying to talk Aerys into letting Rhaegar marry Cersei.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Frey family reunion

[Frey family reunion]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Ditto with the mismatched eyes which are confirmed for two Targaryens.

I think in the story proper we’re only told of two people with mismatched eyes, Tyrion and Euron.   As for the peripheral sources, yes I guess.  Even though other than Shiera I forgot who the other Targaryen was with mismatched eyes.  But we have to keep in mind that GRRM has only done a deep dive into the members of House Targaryen.  If he did a similar deep dive into another House, say Stark or Lannister, we might have found a Stark or Lannister way up the family tree that had a similar condition.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Tyrion is even deemed a potential bastard by his own father.

To be fair, I think this has more to do with Tyrion being a dwarf.  Tywin’s ego doesn’t allow him to fully take responsibility for the birth of someone with that condition. I’m not sure it has to do with Tywin actually thinking Joanna was unfaithful to him.

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

After all, somebody else raised Jon, he looks like Ned, and quite a few characters believe on what woman Ned fathered Jon.

The thing about Jon is that he looks like a Stark though and through.  So physically there is no evidence of any Targaryen blood.  

As for Tyrion, I’m not sure there really is any evidence either of Targaryen blood.  he doesn’t have traditional facial features of either Targaryens or Lannisters, which I assume has to do with his dwarfism?  I think his hair color doesn’t help us, because it appears most of his hair matches that of his nephew, Tommen, and his one green eye is certainly consistent with his Lannister heritage.  The only question is his black eye and patches of black hair.  And I don’t know that this really leads us to Aerys.

[Lord Varys]

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I think in the story proper we’re only told of two people with mismatched eyes, Tyrion and Euron.

Euron's evil eye seems to be more than just a mismatched eye like Tyrion's. There seems to be something scary going on with Euron's other eye which is why he keeps it hidden. That said - you are right there in principle ... but this doesn't mean anything. We have no reason to assume a Greyjoy-Lannister link but very much a Joanna-Aerys link.

Also, of course, Euron's condition there might be his greenseer mark, akin to Bloodraven's albinism.

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for the peripheral sources, yes I guess.  Even though other than Shiera I forgot who the other Targaryen was with mismatched eyes.

It is Princess Alyssa Targaryen, the daughter of Jaehaerys and Alysanne and wife of her brother Baelon. She is one of the birth mothers from whom the main branch of House Targaryen is descended from. This is no small thing. She does have a purple and a green eye ... and we have no idea where the green eye is coming from there. We don't have to explain Tyrion's black eye. It is not about the eye color, but the fact that he has mismatched eyes.

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But we have to keep in mind that GRRM has only done a deep dive into the members of House Targaryen.  If he did a similar deep dive into another House, say Stark or Lannister, we might have found a Stark or Lannister way up the family tree that had a similar condition.

Since he didn't we don't know. We build our theories and look for hints in the published and known material, not hypotheticals we might never get. We can surely say that it is no coincidence that there are two Targaryens (one of them a bastard as Tyrion would be)

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

To be fair, I think this has more to do with Tyrion being a dwarf.  Tywin’s ego doesn’t allow him to fully take responsibility for the birth of someone with that condition. I’m not sure it has to do with Tywin actually thinking Joanna was unfaithful to him.

The reason why Tywin might have such thoughts doesn't matter. The point is that he has them, and Tyrion even repeats such thoughts himself. The possibility that the dwarf isn't Tywin's seed is right there in the plot and even finds its way into Tywin's last words. That is nothing we can wash or wish away.

Also, of course, Tywin could know perfectly well that his wife did fuck Aerys and enjoyed it - if he was allowed to have sex with her before or after (or right in the middle, if he liked to watch) then he still doesn't know who the father of Tyrion was ... assuming such a thing took place around the time of Tyrion's conception (the same would be true if Joanna had been raped by Aerys at a time she had also had sex with Tywin). And it really seems this is the case. Tywin lived at court, Joanna in the West. They were together at Aerys' court for the anniversary tourney and in the next year Tyrion was born. Chances are high that Tyrion was conceived while Joanna was at court there.

That Tywin was actually submissive in bed and only projecting 'manliness' and 'strength' to the outside world less he be seen as another version of his father is also very likely - not just because of the talk that Joanna ruled the man but also because of the Chain of the Hand around Shae's neck ... and Shae's words that she was scared of Tywin. She is no stranger to weird sex play. But what Tywin made her do in the night before Tyrion's execution seems to have been a bit much.

Also take into account the secret brothel tunnel ... which likely didn't just help Tywin fuck clandestinely but also to demand services the whores would better never speak if they valued their tongues and lives.

But the best hint in that regard is meta-textual: Check the proto-Tywin father figure from 'The Armageddon Rag' - there is a very nasty plot twist there, one that turns this guy on his head. And it stands to reason that Tywin Lannister is going to face a similar - and quite total - destruction of his 'public persona'. That has already begun with all those revelations about him actually smiling, about him laughing - he wasn't what his children thought he was, perhaps not even what his siblings thought he was (although Kevan and Genna might certainly know more about his true personality than his children).

31 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

As for Tyrion, I’m not sure there really is any evidence either of Targaryen blood.  he doesn’t have traditional facial features of either Targaryens or Lannisters, which I assume has to do with his dwarfism?  I think his hair color doesn’t help us, because it appears most of his hair matches that of his nephew, Tommen, and his one green eye is certainly consistent with his Lannister heritage.  The only question is his black eye and patches of black hair.  And I don’t know that this really leads us to Aerys.

The dwarfism could be simply a Targaryen monstrosity who survived. We know the stillbirths did not all look like dragon-human hybrids, many were just malformed and not viable. Tyrion might be one such who survived. Tommen isn't really a good case there since young blond children often have very pale hair - it might darken later if Tommen lives long enough.

But again - this is not a conclusive thing. We point out that Tyrion's pale hair fits the bill of certain Targaryens (and Maekar would be his great-great-grandfather if he was Aerys' son) which helps to strengthen the possibility, but it doesn't decide anything. As I keep saying - we need textual confirmation for that. Also, of course, things have to be so subtle that folks don't whisper about Tywin being cuckolded by King Aerys.

Regarding the black hair we can point out, though, that Aerys' only grandmother was black-haired Betha Blackwood - who apparently didn't pass her colors to any of her descendants in the main branch of House Targaryen. But it would certainly be possible for Tyrion to have inherited his black hair from her. Vice versa, we have also no clue where the hell in the Lannister family tree that black hair comes from ... but we have to explain it. It is just there, and not really evidence in any direction.

Tyrion could have red hair and still be Aerys' or Tywin's son. It doesn't really matter. The author decides that.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sure there is an explanation for why Rhaenys had black hair.  She inherited it from her mother.  There is an explanation for why Baelor Breakspear had dark hair, he inherited it from his Dornish mother.  We just don’t know why a match between Aerys and Joanna, would result in a kid with partly black hair.  

Surely we can come up with something more interesting than that.

I thought the prevailing wisdom was that Rhaegar didn’t actually rape Layanna, that it was much more consensual.  (At least as consensual as a young girl being lured away from her family could be).

But regardless, I guess, if there was a sexual relationship between Aerys and Joanna it was probably a rape.  At the very least it had to be done after his public comment to Joanna wondering about the current state of her breasts.  It just seems odd that Aerys could have done it, especially in Lannisport without word getting back to Tywin.  And if Tywin was aware of it, it seems unlikely that he would have gone back to being Aerys Hand, or that a few years later, he would be trying to talk Aerys into letting Rhaegar marry Cersei.

Laugh all you like, I based my assumption on the golden Lannister hair having no known deviation, pointing only to Tyrion not being wholly Lannister over Aerys is anything other than someone with diverse hair colors in his family.  Only known suspect, as it were.  

Yes, we readers understand this Rhaegar Lyanna thing is different, but most of Westeros tells the abduction and rape story.  Just an in world curiosity that there might be a pattern.  Or could be.  Don't get caught in my web of mismemory.  The bit with the public comment happened after Lannisport.  This was in Kings Landing when she took the twins to present to the king.  It is odd that Tywin wouldn't find out about an attack on his lady wife.  How could that happen?  Tywin tried to quit after all that but Aerys would not accept his resignation.  So why did he remain in Kings Landing after he heard this insult himself?  Is this where Aerys turned punitive on his Hand?  Is this where the awful idea of recruiting Tywin's heir as his personal Kings Guard began?   Did that happen after he denied his son's betrothal to Cersei?  Tywin served Aerys ably from what we read.  He messed with Tywin pretty handily, as I suppose only a more powerful man could.  Just one of those many weird set ups Martin writes so well with so little information.