Tyrion is Tywin’s son - it’s in the eyes

[James Steller]

Tyrion’s mismatched eyes prove that he is not a secret Targaryen.

Heterochromia iridium is a condition which causes two separate eye colours, and it’s often brought about in animals due to inbreeding. This would support that Tyrion is a result of two cousins: Tywin and Joanna.

[Curled Finger]

No possibility of that inbreeding being perhaps entirely due to thousands of years of Targaryen incest on another potential father's side?  

[James Steller]

5 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

No possibility of that inbreeding being perhaps entirely due to thousands of years of Targaryen incest on another potential father's side?  

Literally no half-Targaryen kids have had mismatched eyes. They clearly had enough genetic diversity in their DNA makeup. Alyssa Targaryen, meanwhile, had mismatched eyes and she was a child of a brother and sister. To be clear, it’s a rare condition anyway, but inbreeding seems to be the common denominator. 
 

and also, the Targaryen gene is recessive. Apart from the occasional purple eyes (Bittersteel), half Targaryen kids seem to favour their non Targaryen halves.

Edited May 15, 2023 by James Steller

[James Arryn]

10 minutes ago, James Steller said:

Literally no half-Targaryen kids have had mismatched eyes. They clearly had enough genetic diversity in their DNA makeup. Alyssa Targaryen, meanwhile, had mismatched eyes and she was a child of a brother and sister. To be clear, it’s a rare condition anyway, but inbreeding seems to be the common denominator. 
 

and also, the Targaryen gene is recessive. Apart from the occasional purple eyes (Bittersteel), half Targaryen kids seem to favour their non Targaryen halves.

Shiera Seastar?

Edited May 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[James Steller]

7 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Shiera Seastar?

Oof… Touché 

[Curled Finger]

52 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

Shiera Seastar?

Yep, I was just going to check her description.  I knew there was one!  

[James Steller]

I did forget that one, yes. But looking at her, Shiera seems like an anomaly. Her father wasn’t a product of incest either. There’s an even less chance for her to have those mismatched eyes due to incestuous ancestry. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Tyrion’s mismatched eyes prove that he is not a secret Targaryen.

Heterochromia iridium is a condition which causes two separate eye colours, and it’s often brought about in animals due to inbreeding. This would support that Tyrion is a result of two cousins: Tywin and Joanna.

So what is the deal?  It was a decent idea until it wasn't.  Like most of ours around here.  While I am sort of ambiguous about Tyrion's parentage, there are hints to his possible Targaryen-ness.  The eyes are interesting, but he does have that streak in his hair.  I'm not sure what difference it would actually make if Tyrion proved to be a Targ.  There is so much we don't understand about dragons and Targs.  We don't know for certain you have to have Valyrian blood to ride dragons.  Where else would it matter in Tyrion's story?  Am I missing something important? 

[John Suburbs]

1 hour ago, James Steller said:

Tyrion’s mismatched eyes prove that he is not a secret Targaryen.

Heterochromia iridium is a condition which causes two separate eye colours, and it’s often brought about in animals due to inbreeding. This would support that Tyrion is a result of two cousins: Tywin and Joanna.

Well, support is not proof. 

And as we see above, there is evidence of heterochromia in Targs (whether you want to call it an anomaly or not), but there is none in Lannisters that we know of.

Plus, one black eye, one green eye, hmmmmm . . .

[Curled Finger]

Just now, John Suburbs said:

Well, support is not proof. 

And as we see above, there is evidence of heterochromia in Targs (whether you want to call it an anomaly or not), but there is none in Lannisters that we know of.

Plus, one black eye, one green eye, hmmmmm . . .

Are you getting Crow's Eye vibes like I am?  

[John Suburbs]

I dunno, but blacks and greens, Targs at war with themselves, yada, yada . . .

[Alester Florent]

8 hours ago, James Steller said:

and also, the Targaryen gene is recessive. Apart from the occasional purple eyes (Bittersteel), half Targaryen kids seem to favour their non Targaryen halves.

Not sure about this. Examples of "half-Targs" (where the other half is non-Valyrian) who still had purple eyes or silver hair include:

• Aegon II
• Aemond
• Helaena
• Daeron the Daring
• Daemon II Blackfyre
• Aerys I
• Maekar I
• Aerion Brightflame
• Maester Aemon
• Aegon V
• Duncan the Small
• Jaehaerys II
• Aegon VI
• Rhaego (according to Dany's vision)

That is leaving aside many other Targaryen children whose appearance is not clear. In addition to those, we also have Ulf White and Hugh Hammer, who were probably less than half Targ but still had some of the features.

On the flipside we have the following confirmed who apparently didn't inherit either the hair or the eyes:

• Orys Baratheon
• Rhaenys (the Queen who never was)
• Jacaerys Velaryon
• Lucerys Velaryon
• Joffrey Velaryon
• Aegor Rivers
• Baelor Breakspear
• Daeron the Drunken
• Steffon Baratheon
• Princess Rhaenys (daughter of Rhaegar)

(NB I'm not including Brynden Rivers in either category since while his albinism arguably makes him look more Valyrian that's a coincidence).

Although I have seen much muttering about Valyrian features being recessive I suspect on the basis of the above they are actually quite strong. Most of the instances above are First Men genes dominating: of those we know that Baratheon hair is a super-dominant gene and that accounts for three of the entries in the list above; Strong genes also seem to be, well, strong.

But this is leaving aside the obvious point that the "Targaryens" are barely pureblood Valyrians to start with. If we assume that Aegon and his sisters were pureblood Valyrian (possible, given what we know of their ancestry) then the last pureblood Valyrian Targ was Maegor. After that it gets thinned by outbreeding, and although it's topped up again via the Rogare marriage, the last Targ to be majority-Valyrian was Daeron II, and the last Targ to be more Valyrian than anything else was Maekar. All subsequent Targs have been more First Man than Valyrian, significantly so by the time we get to Jaehaerys II and his wife, who were only about 10% Valyrian, being the most genetically diverse Targ to that point. And yet both their kids look entirely Valyrian, and by the time we get to Jaehaerys's great-grandchildren, at least one of them (Aegon) retains the features despite having a Rhoynar mother, while if Dany's vision is to be believed the Targ genes would also win out over Dothraki ones in the hair and eyes stakes.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Desiring Nectarines

[James Arryn]

23 minutes ago, Desiring Nectarines said:

Not sure about this. Examples of "half-Targs" (where the other half is non-Valyrian) who still had purple eyes or silver hair include:

• Aegon II
• Aemond
• Helaena
• Daeron the Daring
• Daemon II Blackfyre
• Aerys I
• Maekar I
• Aerion Brightflame
• Maester Aemon
• Aegon V
• Duncan the Small
• Jaehaerys II
• Aegon VI
• Rhaego (according to Dany's vision)

That is leaving aside many other Targaryen children whose appearance is not clear. In addition to those, we also have Ulf White and Hugh Hammer, who were probably less than half Targ but still had some of the features.

On the flipside we have the following confirmed who apparently didn't inherit either the hair or the eyes:

• Orys Baratheon
• Rhaenys (the Queen who never was)
• Jacaerys Velaryon
• Lucerys Velaryon
• Joffrey Velaryon
• Aegor Rivers
• Baelor Breakspear
• Daeron the Drunken
• Steffon Baratheon
• Princess Rhaenys (daughter of Rhaegar)

(NB I'm not including Brynden Rivers in either category since while his albinism arguably makes him look more Valyrian that's a coincidence).

Although I have seen much muttering about Valyrian features being recessive I suspect on the basis of the above they are actually quite strong. Most of the instances above are First Men genes dominating: of those we know that Baratheon hair is a super-dominant gene and that accounts for three of the entries in the list above; Strong genes also seem to be, well, strong.

But this is leaving aside the obvious point that the "Targaryens" are barely pureblood Valyrians to start with. If we assume that Aegon and his sisters were pureblood Valyrian (possible, given what we know of their ancestry) then the last pureblood Valyrian Targ was Maegor. After that it gets thinned by outbreeding, and although it's topped up again via the Rogare marriage, the last Targ to be majority-Valyrian was Daeron II, and the last Targ to be more Valyrian than anything else was Maekar. All subsequent Targs have been more First Man than Valyrian, significantly so by the time we get to Jaehaerys II and his wife, who were only about 10% Valyrian, being the most genetically diverse Targ to that point. And yet both their kids look entirely Valyrian, and by the time we get to Jaehaerys's great-grandchildren, at least one of them (Aegon) retains the features despite having a Rhoynar mother, while if Dany's vision is to be believed the Targ genes would also win out over Dothraki ones in the hair and eyes stakes.

Pretty sure the QWNW had the eyes but not the hair, but either way, great post.

 

edit: wait, peaches? I go offline for a week due to rural Italy, and the place turns inside out?

 

edit2: ok, just saw peaches’ post still under peaches name, so confused. Sig bet or similar?

Edited May 15, 2023 by James Arryn

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

8 hours ago, James Steller said:

Literally no half-Targaryen kids have had mismatched eyes. They clearly had enough genetic diversity in their DNA makeup. Alyssa Targaryen, meanwhile, had mismatched eyes and she was a child of a brother and sister. To be clear, it’s a rare condition anyway, but inbreeding seems to be the common denominator. 
 

and also, the Targaryen gene is recessive. Apart from the occasional purple eyes (Bittersteel), half Targaryen kids seem to favour their non Targaryen halves.

So you're saying the steel was strong in him?

I knew Bloodraven was overcompensating for something!

[The Grey Wolf Strikes Back]

25 minutes ago, Desiring Nectarines said:

Not sure about this. Examples of "half-Targs" (where the other half is non-Valyrian) who still had purple eyes or silver hair include:

• Aegon II
• Aemond
• Helaena
• Daeron the Daring
• Daemon II Blackfyre
• Aerys I
• Maekar I
• Aerion Brightflame
• Maester Aemon
• Aegon V
• Duncan the Small
• Jaehaerys II
• Aegon VI
• Rhaego (according to Dany's vision)

That is leaving aside many other Targaryen children whose appearance is not clear. In addition to those, we also have Ulf White and Hugh Hammer, who were probably less than half Targ but still had some of the features.

On the flipside we have the following confirmed who apparently didn't inherit either the hair or the eyes:

• Orys Baratheon
• Rhaenys (the Queen who never was)
• Jacaerys Velaryon
• Lucerys Velaryon
• Joffrey Velaryon
• Aegor Rivers
• Baelor Breakspear
• Daeron the Drunken
• Steffon Baratheon
• Princess Rhaenys (daughter of Rhaegar)

(NB I'm not including Brynden Rivers in either category since while his albinism arguably makes him look more Valyrian that's a coincidence).

Although I have seen much muttering about Valyrian features being recessive I suspect on the basis of the above they are actually quite strong. Most of the instances above are First Men genes dominating: of those we know that Baratheon hair is a super-dominant gene and that accounts for three of the entries in the list above; Strong genes also seem to be, well, strong.

But this is leaving aside the obvious point that the "Targaryens" are barely pureblood Valyrians to start with. If we assume that Aegon and his sisters were pureblood Valyrian (possible, given what we know of their ancestry) then the last pureblood Valyrian Targ was Maegor. After that it gets thinned by outbreeding, and although it's topped up again via the Rogare marriage, the last Targ to be majority-Valyrian was Daeron II, and the last Targ to be more Valyrian than anything else was Maekar. All subsequent Targs have been more First Man than Valyrian, significantly so by the time we get to Jaehaerys II and his wife, who were only about 10% Valyrian, being the most genetically diverse Targ to that point. And yet both their kids look entirely Valyrian, and by the time we get to Jaehaerys's great-grandchildren, at least one of them (Aegon) retains the features despite having a Rhoynar mother, while if Dany's vision is to be believed the Targ genes would also win out over Dothraki ones in the hair and eyes stakes.

Probably helps in the Greens' case that multiple Hightowers have been shown to possess blonde/silvery hair.

[Castellan]

mismatched eyes can result from chimerism, in fact is the first example they mention in wikipedia

Heterochromia iridum

Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Heterochromia_iridum

Most cases of heterochromia are hereditary, or caused by genetic factors such as chimerism, and are entirely benign and unconnected to any pathology, ...

 

Also, one brown eye and one another colour can just mean the brown one is actually a sign of damage e.g. during birth and not be genetic. I read that somewhere and cannot be bothered finding it again.

 

As I keep saying like a scratchy antique record every time this topic comes up, Tyrion is a chimera, he is twins who have merged. He has the bloodline of Aerys which will make him attractive to dragons, and most everything else from Tywin.

 

Its suitable George would have an ancient mythical beast in his book, griffins get a mention... A chimera had a lions front end especially head, a serpents tail, and are sometimes also depicted with a goats head sticking up in the middle of the back.

 

I like the goat's head touch as Tyrion is always acting the goat, and goats were also as symbol of horniness.

 

Tyrion is the only child of Tywin and Joanna for which the timing would permit Aerys to be the father. I would think that if raped or pressured by Aerys (because she knows Tywin would respond by going to war against the King and getting himself killed) Joanne would make sure she had sex with hubbie soon after so he wouldn't doubt it was his.

 

And twinning runs in the family. Didn't work out so well this time. It's emphasised Tyrion is not only a dwarf but quite a misshapen one, as if that's not all that's at work.

 

https://www.aboutgeneticcounselors.org/Resources-to-Help-You/Post/chimerism-explained-how-one-person-can-unknowingly-have-two-sets-of-dna

 

[Daeron the Daring]

4 hours ago, Castellan said:

would think that if raped or pressured by Aerys (because she knows Tywin would respond by going to war against the King and getting himself killed) Joanne would make sure she had sex with hubbie soon after so he wouldn't doubt it was his.

Not really. 

There's simply no way Joanna and Aerys were having an affair, which does leave us with tbe option of him maybe (huge maybe) forcing himself on her.

But Joanna would definitely have no reason not to tell this to Tywin. It wasn't too long ago that Lyonel Baratheon rebelled against Aegon V because Prince Duncan broke his betrothal by marrying Jenny of Oldstones.

I would argue Tywin would, in this scenario, have the balls to rebel, or the guts to deal with Aerys another way.  There's also no reason to assume Joanna would be the kind of person to be silent about such a thing. If anything, it's the opposite, since she probably befited Tywin's woman ideal, making her having enough self esteem to not just do nothing about being raped, especially for their position.

[astarkchoice]

Hes clearly tywins son

Tywins own sister sees it as clear as day , hes a mini tywin. He has all his political guile (and apparently his lust for whores).

[James Arryn]

Next thought: I don’t really have a strong feeling whether/which of Tywin’s children are Aerys’, but I have a strong preference that if it has to be either Tyrion or the twins, I hope it’s the twins. 

[James Steller]

4 hours ago, James Arryn said:

Next thought: I don’t really have a strong feeling whether/which of Tywin’s children are Aerys’, but I have a strong preference that if it has to be either Tyrion or the twins, I hope it’s the twins. 

Agreed! For several reasons too.

First, Tyrion’s arc and storyline would be undercut and cheapened if he were to get an out like “oh yeah, Tywin isn’t your dad after all, have a dragon to ride!” (Seriously, why is everyone so obsessed with having Tyrion fly a dragon?)

Second, the twins are far more Targaryen like than Tyrion ever was. Cersei is compared to the Mad King several times, there’s the incest factor, and there’s the delicious twist that Jaime isn’t just a kingslayer, he’s also a kinslayer.

thirdly, it’s the perfect punishment for Tywin. All those years of expecting the best from his twin kids, favouring them over Tyrion, whom he’s always loathed for being his son, wishing he could disown Tyrion or prove that he’s not legitimately his son… it’s perfect that Tyrion proves to be Tywin’s only son, while the twins aren’t biologically his after all. Hell, maybe Tywin always knew it too, which would only enforce his hatred of Tyrion. Anything so that horrid monster suffered.