Rugby: France and Beyond

[ljkeane]

7 hours ago, Iskaral Pust said:

France’s general tactical approach — concede possession, kick long to manage territory, channel opponents inside into powerful jackals, counterattack explosively — is less effective without DuPont & Ntamack’s flair in counterattacks

I actually think Jalibert's a better player than Ntamack, and he doesn't lack for flair, but obviously Dupont's the main man and that combination works. It's not really the traditional French way but maybe they could do with have the 10 dictate play a bit more with Dupont missing.

39 minutes ago, williamjm said:

Scotland completely dominated the first half, although I think they could have been more ruthless, they should really have scored at least one more try given how much they were controlling the game. Then everything seemed to fall apart for them and they conceded penalty after penalty, which then lead to conceding tries and losing players to yellow cards.

Scotland should be very disappointed with that I'd say. They had a fairly comfortably stronger side out than Wales and were winning comfortably at half time. They just needed a controlled performance in that second half, pick up the bonus point try and kill the game off. Instead they totally lost their composure. Apparently it was 14 penalties against them on the bounce at one point. Turner's lucky Wales scored the try when he got the yellow for collapsing the maul otherwise it would have been a penalty try and another 2 points for Wales.

Wales didn't look great in the first half. I think trying to play the Gatland get in an arm wrestle style isn't going work with the inexperienced side they're got. When they started to play some rugby in the second half though there were some real positive signs for them.

Anyway, fun game for the neutral.

46 minutes ago, williamjm said:

In the earlier game, Italy put in a good performance and might be feeling they missed out on an opportunity for a first victory over England.

I think the late, late try made that game look a little closer than it was. England had a pretty disjointed start in defence and as a result struggled early in the first half but they were reasonably in control after that. I wasn't a huge fan of the Ethan Roots selection but, credit to him, he was good.

[Padraig]

Great win for Ireland.  France may still be in shock from the WC.  It was almost sad to see our line out so strong, since if that had held up during the WC, we could have gone a lot further.  Scrum did struggle a little though.  But still, i've never seen us dominate France for such a long stretch of time (first 35 minutes of the game).  So we have to be very happy with most parts of the game. 

Crowley was reassuring, given he is still so inexperienced.  Going to France and winning is a great way to start for him!

The other games looked interesting enough also.  Might be an interesting tournament.

[Iskaral Pust]

3 hours ago, Padraig said:

Great win for Ireland.  France may still be in shock from the WC.  It was almost sad to see our line out so strong, since if that had held up during the WC, we could have gone a lot further.  Scrum did struggle a little though.  But still, i've never seen us dominate France for such a long stretch of time (first 35 minutes of the game).  So we have to be very happy with most parts of the game. 

Crowley was reassuring, given he is still so inexperienced.  Going to France and winning is a great way to start for him!

The other games looked interesting enough also.  Might be an interesting tournament.

Sheehan’s injury absence during the WC was a major factor in the weak lineout.  It got better when he returned.

[Padraig]

And the U20s won in France too.  That's a good sign for the next 4 years.  France may not put as much focus on the 6 Nations U20s but beating them in France is no small thing.

[Iskaral Pust]

I’ve watched Italy vs England now too (during my home gym sessions).

England should feel pretty good.  Despite (or because of) a lot of selection changes, their possession play was much sharper and more coherent.  Their ruck speed was much faster, they were fit and fast enough to sustain possession and territory pressure for long periods, and they didn’t lose faith or fall apart when their progress stalled.  Perhaps their biggest failing in attack was taking points from too many penalties rather than chasing the try.  I fully expect this England team to improve as they go on and build more familiarity and perhaps some belief. (Side note: Mitchell’s try looked like a completed tackle, so with that plus a missed easy penalty by Italy, the result could have gone the other way despite England comfortably dominating possession and territory)

OTOH Italy scored three good tries where they exploited a key line break.  And that was without Capuozzo, and Cannone went off injured quite early.  I think Italy are improving each year but England need to question why they could score three tries without their (arguably) two best players.  England’s defensive shape looked suspect once the ball was moved quickly from inside to wing.  And, yes, Italy scored their last try in garbage time but they also had a good threatening period for several minutes before that, and then generated that last attack immediately after England had them on the ropes in their own 22.

Italy gave France big problems in their home opener last year.  There’s limited predictive power to this one match.  Based on what I saw, I’m a lot more worried about the challenge of playing England in Twickenham after they’ve found some more rhythm than an improving Italy with Capuozzo and Cannone added.

[ljkeane]

On 2/8/2024 at 12:44 PM, Iskaral Pust said:

OTOH Italy scored three good tries where they exploited a key line break.  And that was without Capuozzo, and Cannone went off injured quite early.  I think Italy are improving each year but England need to question why they could score three tries without their (arguably) two best players.  England’s defensive shape looked suspect once the ball was moved quickly from inside to wing.

I wouldn't be overly concerned with that at this stage. They've got a new defence coach in Felix Jones and some teething problems are probably to be expected. You'd think he's probably looking to introduce something similar to the system he had with the Springboks and miscommunications can leave big gaps in the wide channels with aggressive line speed defences. That's definitely what happened with the second try.

In terms of the teams for this weekend England have stuck with the same side, probably a good idea to build some combinations, Ireland have wrung the changes a bit for the Italy game. Other than that mostly the expected sides other than Scotland dropping Jamie Ritchie to go with the Glasgow back row as a unit now Darge is back.

[Which Tyler]

Minute by minute breakdown of Italy v England

http://www.rugbyrebels.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=6786

[Iskaral Pust]

Lots of changes for Ireland.  I don’t think that’s complacency about Italy, rather some development for a wider pool of players.  In the WC we had the core players play far too many minutes and reached the QF looking fatigued.

It should be a good match, and the Italians may see an opportunity against a rotated Ireland and come out swinging.

[ljkeane]

On 2/4/2024 at 7:59 PM, Padraig said:

And the U20s won in France too.  That's a good sign for the next 4 years.  France may not put as much focus on the 6 Nations U20s but beating them in France is no small thing.

Speaking of the Under 20's I thought Ireland looked really impressive winning away in France too but they scraped a win at home against Italy last night. We might have to reassess the relative strengths of the sides this year.

England's pack look really good this year. I'm not a huge fan of England seeming insistent on playing Opoku-Fordjour as a loosehead though. He's obviously good there, he destroyed the Welsh scrum, but he's been playing well in the Premiership at tighthead. If English rugby has a good young prop who can play on both sides it'd really be better for us if he develops into a top class tighthead.

[williamjm]

Unlucky end for Scotland, I think probably everyone thinks they did score a try at the end even if the video evidence wasn't clear enough for the TMO to award it.

It was a slightly bizarre game at times in the second half with several times where Finn Russell was standing still with the ball while all the French players stood still and waited for him to do something.

[ljkeane]

1 hour ago, williamjm said:

Unlucky end for Scotland, I think probably everyone thinks they did score a try at the end even if the video evidence wasn't clear enough for the TMO to award it.

They were unlucky not to get the try at the end, it'd clearly been scored but there wasn't a shot of the ball touching the ground. A bit of common sense would help there. Ok, you can't actually see the ball touching the ground but you can there was nothing between the ball and the ground so obviously it's a try. I think the TMO was going to give it but he bottled it.

Having said all that I don't think Scotland were unlucky not to win. The Van de Merwe interception on his own try line in the first half he'd clearly not gotten back onside, that's a nailed on penalty try and a yellow card. On top of that the tactics in the second half were incredibly negative so it's hard to feel any sympathy for them when it goes wrong.

If England had gone on to lose the later game I think there'd be controversy over the decisions. The penalty try for Wales was never getting scored, Itoje and Earl were both all over the ball.

Again, having said that it'd be hard to feel too much sympathy for them. England's defence wasn't bad (although there were a couple of big errors again) but their attack was atrocious. They're still so bad at stringing together any sort of multiphase attack and they're so quick to kick the ball away. Borthwick's had a fair amount of time in charge now and we're still not seeing any progress on that front.

[Which Tyler]

19 hours ago, ljkeane said:

If English rugby has a good young prop who can play on both sides it'd really be better for us if he develops into a top class tighthead.

What if they've got 1 top potential tight head, and 1 with top potential on either side of the scrum?

My reading of the Nathan Catt article, was that AOF is seen as a THP who's good enough to play LHP to a very high standard, and that he's being paired with Sela because that's comfortably the best combination. Not that England see him as a LHP despite almost all of his game time coming at THP.

 

As for Scotland v France in the seniors. I felt there was enough to say that the ball was on the ground, but not necessarily enough to say that it was still over the line, and not necessarily enough to say that it was grounded before the whistle was blown.

There was also a few other issues in that match that went very much in Scotland's favour - specifically Finn Russell starting that same goal-line seige by playing scrum half for France; and the DVDM double-offence of a high tackle* and immediate offside - both of which stopped a probable try, and would be deserving of a penalty try and yellow if the videos had been looked at.

 

The less said about England v Wales the better - has anyone got some brain-bleach?

 

 

* Yes, I also heard Nigel Owens' gaslighting us that seatbelt tackles aren't illegal and that "above the shoulder" means "attacking the neck" as if no-one's been watching the last 6-7 years of rugby.

Edited February 11 by Which Tyler

[Padraig]

On 2/10/2024 at 11:16 AM, ljkeane said:

Speaking of the Under 20's I thought Ireland looked really impressive winning away in France too but they scraped a win at home against Italy last night. We might have to reassess the relative strengths of the sides this year.

Yes.  A bit of a wake-up call.  France did have a good win against Scotland at U20 level but the simplest explanation is that England is the favourite at U20 level given that it seems to have easily dismissed both Wales and Italy?

Ireland had an ok win at senior level.  Ireland made a lot of mistakes but were never under any real pressure.  Harder games to come.

[ljkeane]

11 hours ago, Padraig said:

Yes.  A bit of a wake-up call.  France did have a good win against Scotland at U20 level but the simplest explanation is that England is the favourite at U20 level given that it seems to have easily dismissed both Wales and Italy?

I don't think so. I really like the look of England's pack this year but the backs don't look particularly impressive. It depends on conditions when they play, if it's wet and there's loads of scrums I'd back England, but I'd probably expect Ireland to be well drilled enough to exploit mismatches in the backs. France are probably a bit less susceptible to getting bullied in the forwards since most of their players tend to be playing senior rugby already.

11 hours ago, Padraig said:

Ireland had an ok win at senior level.  Ireland made a lot of mistakes but were never under any real pressure.  Harder games to come.

It never really felt who was in question who was going to win but Joe McCarthy was really impressive again. He had a few big carries but the big tackles he put on Garbisi in the first half were really good. Italy really want to play their attack through Garbisi as a playmaker as much as possible, a big second row being athletic enough to cover the lead runner then push through and tackle the playmaker out the back really messed it up for them.

[Iskaral Pust]

I finally got to watch the Ireland vs Italy game.  Not a great spectacle because Ireland were disjointed in their play with so many changes.  They scored six tries while comfortably smothering any attacking play by Italy but it rarely felt like a free-flowing or exciting contest.

It’s good to see more depth in the squad.  Crowley was very good as the #10 playmaker, although his kicking for points was very poor.  McCarthy and Baird both showed great speed and energy for their size, with Ireland’s changed pack looking mobile and fast.  Lowe and Keenan were both in very good form (let’s hope Keenan recovers from that injury quickly), and Nash did well alongside them.  And I thought we got a good showing from McCloskey and Henshaw at center considering how strong Aki and Ringrose typically are as a pair.

Lineouts were really solid, with mauls generating some of the tries.  Scrums were iffy again.  Nothing went right for Larmour in his brief sub appearance but there was a lot of ropey play at that stage as some subs were third or fourth string while others were JVDF and JGP.

Italy must feel dispirited after being much more competitive against England.   Hopefully they’ll have more competitive matches ahead.  They aren’t indulging in the madcap risks of last year, they just didn’t have quite enough quality to breach a very diligent Irish defense, while the scores against them gradually mounted.  Watching Ireland score from 5-10m lineouts made me think again that England should have tried the same a week prior rather than kicking for points.

[ljkeane]

The team for Saturdays games: Ireland and Wales, England and Scotland.

No real surprises in the Wales side. Ireland are obviously very settled generally but with Keenan out they've gone with Frawley at fullback and I don't think I've ever seen him play there. I doubt it'll matter either way though.

Scotland have probably their strongest side so far this tournament with Kinghorn and Steyn back.

England have made some interesting choices. Lawrence and Martin are back from injury and Mitchell is out with injury. Furbank ahead of Steward at fullback is the headliner though. There's arguments to be made either way but I'd probably lean towards picking more of a playmaker at fullback being the right call. It does seem that Borthwick doesn't have a particularly clear plan for what the team should be doing in attack though since it's a pretty big change in player profile.

[Iskaral Pust]

6 hours ago, ljkeane said:

The team for Saturdays games: Ireland and Wales, England and Scotland.

No real surprises in the Wales side. Ireland are obviously very settled generally but with Keenan out they've gone with Frawley at fullback and I don't think I've ever seen him play there. I doubt it'll matter either way though.

Scotland have probably their strongest side so far this tournament with Kinghorn and Steyn back.

England have made some interesting choices. Lawrence and Martin are back from injury and Mitchell is out with injury. Furbank ahead of Steward at fullback is the headliner though. There's arguments to be made either way but I'd probably lean towards picking more of a playmaker at fullback being the right call. It does seem that Borthwick doesn't have a particularly clear plan for what the team should be doing in attack though since it's a pretty big change in player profile.

It’s not just Keenan missing at fullback.  O’Brien and Hanson would probably be second and third string for the position but for injuries.  Frawley has played the position just a few times for Leinster.  It’s definitely the thin spot of the XV; otherwise a strong line-up.

I haven’t yet come to grips with England’s selection process to shape their attacking play.  The variations at 10 over the past year alone point leave me wondering how they’re preparing players for different attacking styles/philosophies.  I’m guessing the Calcutta Cup will be a good spectacle regardless.

[ljkeane]

Really awful performance from England. There were so many errors and a lot of them were unforced. Borthwick’s had a fair number of games in charge now and there’s no real signs of improvement with the attack. 

Scotland were pretty flat in the first half but once they realised they just needed to wait for England to cough the ball up they looked a lot more in control.

[Padraig]

While Ireland did well in the first half but the second half was not easy to watch until the end.  Scrum improved a lot but lineout was very shaky.  And then we started giving away a lot of silly penalties.  Ended up with a bonus point but certainly opened the door a little to Wales first.

[Iskaral Pust]

France’s WC hangover is incredible.  But for two controversial refereeing decisions in their favor, they’d have three defeats and would be competing with Wales for the wooden spoon.