Tracing Bloodlines - Speculations on House Dondarrion

[Hippocras]

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Viserys II. It was his nephew, not his uncle, who built the Maidenvault after all.

Yes, sorry. Typo.

 

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

I like to think it's Viserys Targaryen's  bastard, if for nothing else then because the poor boy died a horrible death at the hands of Maegor. Seems sad if he didn't even have children left.

A nice thought, but Larissa was sent away before Maegor stole the throne, and Viserys was still too young. He may have had a bastard in KL, but not with Larissa.

2 hours ago, SaffronLady said:

Morning is the last named dragon to hatch. I suppose the fact the last dragon was green has more significance than the pink Morning, given the color's supposed connections to usurpers.

Interesting. Though I don't see how any interpretation of the Dance has the Greens coming out on top. They all died. So that one is hard to interpret.

[SaffronLady]

40 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Interesting. Though I don't see how any interpretation of the Dance has the Greens coming out on top. They all died. So that one is hard to interpret.

This is a train of thought I haven't considered before. But just in case this derails the threads from Dondarrion, I will rest it here.

[Hippocras]

16 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There aren't any real clues there, although the second Laena Velaryon being the oldest child of Baela/Rhaena makes it possible that her grandchildren are the ones intermarrying with the grandsons of Aegon IV through Daeron II. If Aelinor and Jena happen to be great-grandchildren of Baela - like Baelor and Aerys I are great-grandchildren of Viserys II - then we could easily see the second Laena marrying into House Penrose, her producing two children (Ronnel Penrose who would marry Princess Elaena as a second wife, having Aelinor with his first wife), and a daughter who ended up marrying into House Dondarrion, becoming Jena's mother. There are enough Targaryen girls around for Aelinor and Jena being descended from different branches but that possibility might be easier. The Aelinor situation cannot be resolved with the idea of a daughter of Baela or Rhaena being her mother.

Baela's daughter Laena was born in 134. Elaena was born in 150, she she is the next generation really, and by the time she married Ronnel she was at least 27. We don't know Ronnel's birth year but it is actually possible that he was quite a bit younger than her. So he might have been Laena's son, or he might have been the son of a younger daughter of Baela and Alyn, born maybe around 138-140 and hypothetically old enough to be married and have a child by 152-160. You are probably right that he was Laena's son though if the name of his first daughter with Elaena is any clue. It makes me curious to learn the story of House Penrose, in particular during and immediately following the Dance. Why were they allied in that way with Alyn and Baela? Alyn struggled a bit for position and influence during the regency because of Peake et al.'s scheming. 

If Laena became a Penrose then it would be the second daughter (if she ever existed) who would be the best bet to have become a Blackwood and she would have to have been born in or before the year 138 when Addam's bones were returned to Driftmark. Small window but possible. The reason I like this theory is that the Blackwoods seem to have a bit of a matrilineal philosophy, hinted at by Lord Blackwood's reluctance to give up his only daughter as a hostage to Jaimie in the main series. I think that if the long drawn out saga leading to and following the Dance is meant as a hint that the Targaryens neglected the female line (beginning with the choice to pass over Rhaenys) to their detriment, then it follows that a House with a matrilineal streak and a certain capacity in some of them towards being greenseers would be very interested in sustaining the female line of House Targaryen.

[Hippocras]

As for House Dondarrion, and how we may get to Jena:

1.  Laena Velaryon (or her younger sister) + Lord Penrose (brother of Lucinda?) = Ronnel born in or after 148, and his sister, born in or after 148 who married a Dondarrion

2. Sister of Ronnel + Dondarrion = Jena, born in 160-180, and her brother, future of House Dondarrion.

3. OR Granddaughter of Rhaena + Dondarrion = Jena and her brother, future of House Dondarrion.

4. Jena's brother Lord Dondarrion then may well have married one of Elaena and Ronnel's daughters.

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord Varys]

On 7/13/2023 at 11:24 AM, Hippocras said:

@Lord Varys One thing I have been wondering about is if we are supposed to take Morning being the last dragon born as some kind of clue that Rhaena's line is the one we should be following the most closely. I am not convinced, but probably that is just bias because I like Baela. For that matter I also like Rhaena the First, Rhaenys Velaryon and Elaena (...) Penrose.

I also wonder if George's description of Alyn and Baela's marriage being "stormy" is actually wordplay. A cheeky hint to look to the Stormlands for their descendants. I would never consider such things to be any kind of proof, but it does seem like something George might do.

Rhaena is, so far, just the last known dragonrider. There may have been others. Baela and/or Viserys might claim one of the riderless dragons, and Alys Rivers' son has good chances to become a dragonrider, too.

Nah, stormy there seems to be just the nature of their relationship due to Alyn liking other women and Baela being more than a bit hotheaded.

[Lord Varys]

On 7/13/2023 at 5:28 PM, Hippocras said:

Baela's daughter Laena was born in 134. Elaena was born in 150, she she is the next generation really, and by the time she married Ronnel she was at least 27. We don't know Ronnel's birth year but it is actually possible that he was quite a bit younger than her. So he might have been Laena's son, or he might have been the son of a younger daughter of Baela and Alyn, born maybe around 138-140 and hypothetically old enough to be married and have a child by 152-160. You are probably right that he was Laena's son though if the name of his first daughter with Elaena is any clue. It makes me curious to learn the story of House Penrose, in particular during and immediately following the Dance. Why were they allied in that way with Alyn and Baela? Alyn struggled a bit for position and influence during the regency because of Peake et al.'s scheming.

One way how the Penroses could gain enough prominence to end up with a Targaryen-Velaryon girl as bride could be the current Baratheon situation. Lord Royce is still a toddler, and his mother, who runs things, has already taken a second husband who ended up dead. Ronnel Penrose's grandfather could turn out to be her third husband, being the guy who runs the Stormlands until Royce comes of age. Ronnel's father could then either be Royce's half-brother by his Penrose-stepfather or merely his stepbrother from an earlier marriage. Even if Lady Elenda doesn't remarry again, a Lord of Parchments could become her strong right arm for one reason or another.

Such a guy could also end up on the Small Council, getting close enough to Alyn and Baela that a match between their daughter and his son seems like a good thing. But in light of the fact that the second Laena Velaryon would also be an ideal bride for Aegon IV it would make more sense if the Penroses really have a very good standing with the Crown at that point.

The problem with the later Penroses is that there is a Lady Penrose during the Blackfyre Rebellions whose sons are slain. The Lady Penrose in question is obviously not Elaena nor can she be the wife of Elaena and Ronnel's son. That means that Ronnel either had children with an earlier wife or we talk different branches of House Penrose. But the Lady from the Blackfyre Rebellion seems to be the Lady Penrose, just as Ronnel is said to have been a lord so he would have been the Lord of Parchments, not just some cadet branch Penrose guy.

With Elaena and Ronnel's eldest daughter being another Laena I think we can say it is effectively confirmed that the second Laena is very likely Ronnel's mother and the Elaena-Ronnel pairing as well as the later Aerys-Aelinor pairing are direct results of the standard Targaryen marriage practices.

I also like to think that Joy Penrose's name might be a hint she was actually fathered by Michael Manwoody, giving Elaena great joy that way, since the implication seems to be that they were in love (long) before they were able to finally marry.

I don't see any reason to believe the Blackwoods had Targaryen blood. If they did, Egg-Betha would have been an ideal or at least a non-controversial match ... but apparently it wasn't. Bloodraven's sisters are interesting because they might have married into other houses, not because the Blackwoods are likely to have Targaryen blood themselves.

[Hippocras]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

I don't see any reason to believe the Blackwoods had Targaryen blood. If they did, Egg-Betha would have been an ideal or at least a non-controversial match ... but apparently it wasn't. Bloodraven's sisters are interesting because they might have married into other houses, not because the Blackwoods are likely to have Targaryen blood themselves.

I guess it is mostly about whether you think Daenaerys is who she thinks she is. If she is in fact the daughter of Aerys and Rhaella, then that means that 3 generations back her bloodline became half Blackwood. I struggle, personally, to understand how someone who brought dragons back into the world, who is so entirely associated with fire and blood and is, IMO, likely to take that fact to dangerous extremes, could be so cut off from female line Targaryen bloodlines. I think who she is, and what she does in the main series makes far more sense if she in fact represents a rejoining of bloodlines that split in the time leading up to and immediately after the Dance. If the Blackwoods do not carry the line of Rhaenys, or an even earlier branch of House Targaryen that was cut off, then in my personal opinion that is the same thing as saying that Daenaerys is not who she thinks she is, and that she got her female line dragon blood from somewhere else.

But I think it is not without basis. The relationship between Alyn and Benjicot during and after the Dance is established. A daughter of Alyn marrying into House Blackwood is therefore the most likely route.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Green Stag]

Re:  Blackwoods.

Don't forget that Aegon IV had two bastard daughters through Mellisa Blackwood, and like all his bastard children they were legitimized on his death bed.  We don't know what happened to them, while there is no proof, it is possible that they married right back into house Blackwood, and their age would be about right to have children that Aegon V could wed.  

So, if you think Daenerys must have additional Targaryen blood from the female line, there is a possible pathway via Mya and Gwenys

[Hippocras]

57 minutes ago, Green Stag said:

Re:  Blackwoods.

Don't forget that Aegon IV had two bastard daughters through Mellisa Blackwood, and like all his bastard children they were legitimized on his death bed.  We don't know what happened to them, while there is no proof, it is possible that they married right back into house Blackwood, and their age would be about right to have children that Aegon V could wed.  

So, if you think Daenerys must have additional Targaryen blood from the female line, there is a possible pathway via Mya and Gwenys

I think that is very true, but yet not all that satisfying. Mya and Gwenys, while female themselves, were born of only male line Targaryen blood. As in, their father was Targaryen but their mother was not, their grandfather was Targaryen but their grandmother was a Rogare of Lys. While I accept the Rogares may have had a drop of Targaryen blood somewhere, it doesn't feel right by that path.

The break from the female line began when Rhaenys was passed over. Her mother Jocelyn Baratheon had dragon blood via her mother Alyssa Velaryon, and while we don't know much about Alyssa's mother Alarra Massey, in the text it clearly says that House Massey at the time of the conquest had much closer ties to Dragonstone than to the Storm Kings, which suggests that Alarra Massey very likely was of female line Targ descent herself. Masseys having Targ blood somewhere is also supported by the fact that Gormon Massey tried to claim a dragon during the sowing of the seeds. So Rhaenys was of Targ descent by both the female and male line. Then she married Corlys, who was also of some degree of Targ descent. Their daughter Laena continued the female line, which next passed to Baela and Rhaena. Both represent uninterrupted Targ descent from both their father and their mother. It is their children who passed on the female line of House Targaryen, even if those children never actually had the name Targaryen.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

@Green Stag and @Lord Varys

To add to the previous comment: I find it an interesting thing that while House Targaryen descent became patrilineal after the Dance, in that the queens and therefore mothers of future Kings did not (necessarily) have dragon blood descent, this patrilineal line descended from Rhaenyra. Daemon as well, yes, but she was the ruling queen in question. A bit of irony if nothing else. The cut-off from the female line I suspect may be part of why the dragons ceased to thrive. Yes, Aegon III tried to kill them all, and there is the Citadel conspiracy theory, but there is still room to speculate that the cutoff from the female line was a factor in why healthy dragons did not hatch or thrive.

The female line was excluded yet again when Aegon III's daughters were cut from the line of descent, which is what makes tracing Daena, Elaena and possibly Rhaena's descendants also very interesting. Many of Daena's descendants likely inter-married with Blackfyre supporters, while Elaena's are most likely to be found among the loyalist families. We don't know if Rhaena had any because she "eventually" became a septa (ambiguous).

That is mostly a discussion for another thread:

On 7/9/2023 at 11:03 AM, Hippocras said:

What are people's theories for the ladies of the Maidenvault after they were freed. We don't actually know much yet, but hints here and there make if fun to guess. Here are my guesses:

But relevant here as it pertains to House Dondarrion and later generations, possibly, of House Blackwood.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Hippocras

[Green Stag]

I believe somewhere in Fire and Blood it is mentioned that Aegon III taking the throne the line of descent going through Rhaena was a sign to some that she was in fact the true heir.  In addition to female line being cut off shortly after the Dance, there also doesn't seem to anyone really spending any time at Dragonstone until Daeron the Good, so lack of "nurturing" of the Island and the dragons may have played some part.  However, Targaryen women do appear to have less prominent role overall after the Dance, so yes, maybe absence of female blood or presence has something to do with the eggs no longer hatching.  

I'm still of the opinion that Daena married into the Dondarrions.  Both Balor and Daemon Blackfyre were born in 170, so Daena having a daughter a few younger then Balor is highly possible, and if we are just looking at bloodlines, then politically a daughter of Daena would almost certainly be the best bet to combine bloodlines as she would be the eldest surviving child of Aegon the III, and arguable his heir.  Viserys II would want her somewhere safely out of the way - overseas he has no control, and a more powerful house could create trouble.  The Dondarrions seem to be on the same tier as house Penrose, so would be deemed "appropriate" for a princess who had given birth to a bastard son. 

Rheana is also a good possibility for the Dondarrions having Targaryen blood, given her six daughters.  Her line would also be before Baela after past judgement by the council.  

[Sace]

On 7/15/2023 at 11:43 AM, Hippocras said:

If the Blackwoods do not carry the line of Rhaenys, or an even earlier branch of House Targaryen that was cut off, then in my personal opinion that is the same thing as saying that Daenaerys is not who she thinks she is, and that she got her female line dragon blood from somewhere else.

Why? I mean, I don't understand why you're giving so much importance to Daenerys' female ancestors. How would Daenerys having a drop of blood from a pre-Rhaenys branch of the Targaryens (let's assume Gaemon's daughter) make her anymore Targaryen or Daenerys? With hundreds of years passing it would be a small drop of blood.

I think the only realistic ways for Blackwoods to have Targaryen blood are trough Aegon IV's daughters Gwenys and Mya who would have remarried into the main cousin line or trough one of Rhaena's Hightower girls line.

[Hippocras]

40 minutes ago, Sace said:

Why? I mean, I don't understand why you're giving so much importance to Daenerys' female ancestors. How would Daenerys having a drop of blood from a pre-Rhaenys branch of the Targaryens (let's assume Gaemon's daughter) make her anymore Targaryen or Daenerys? With hundreds of years passing it would be a small drop of blood.

I think the only realistic ways for Blackwoods to have Targaryen blood are trough Aegon IV's daughters Gwenys and Mya who would have remarried into the main cousin line or trough one of Rhaena's Hightower girls line.

Call it a hunch, but only GRRM knows the answers. So we will find out eventually if my hunch is right. Seriously, have you never wondered WHY Valyrians married brothers to sisters? It is a core part of the series, but I really don't think GRRM put it in because he thought it would be titillating. It only makes sense if the female line matters.

I did actually explain quite a bit in more than one post above. But I will try to be clearer: After the Dance, the dragons died out. The living ones were killed because Aegon III wanted it that way, but then more could not be hatched even when people wanted to. Several Targaryen Kings tried to bring dragons back. Noone succeeded but Daenaerys. The period of dragon extinction coincides with the period when the dragon blood ceased to be passed down from both the mothers and the fathers. Viserys II married a Rogare of Lys, who MAY have descended from Saera at most, but even that is doubtful. Aegon IV, his wife Naerys, and their brother Aemon were therefore all only half "dragon blood" in a family explicitly obsessed with keeping bloodlines "pure". Then Naerys's son Daeron II (whether fathered by Aegon or Aemon doesn't matter), who was also only half "dragon blood" married a Martell. I don't know to what extent the Martells might have had traces of stray dragonlord blood from before that, but there is no sign of it, and it was probably minimal. So Daeron II's children dropped to only 1/4 "dragon blood".  He was succeeded by Maekar, who married a Dayne. While later Dayne are quite likely to have some "dragon blood" in their line, I don't think that was true of Maekar's wife Dyanna. So his children are down to 1/8 "dragon blood". Again, this is a family that is obsessed with keeping bloodlines pure, in a series that contains BLOOD magic.

Daenaerys is fully "dragon". That is hard to contest. She walked out of a fire and hatched 3 dragons which had been extinct. So why could she succeed when others could not? Part of that is timing (comet, life pays for life etc.) but I am also quite certain that part of it is also WHO she is. Somehow in her, the "dragon blood" concentration is significantly higher than it was in Aegon V, or Aerys I or any of the others who concerned themselves with bringing back dragons. So either the Blackwood marriage brought back some dragonblood that was necessary, or Daenaerys is not who she thinks she is, and got it from somewhere else.

Westeros may be extreme patriarchy, but I don't think this story is. Who is a dragon and who is not is not onlly passed down by fathers.

Edited July 16, 2023 by Hippocras

[Sace]

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Call it a hunch, but only GRRM knows the answers. So we will find out eventually if my hunch is right. Seriously, have you never wondered WHY Valyrians married brothers to sisters? It is a core part of the series, but I really don't think GRRM put it in because he thought it would be titillating. It only makes sense if the female line matters.

Yes, I have, and I think it's exaplained by three reasons:

1. The girls, like the boys, could claim dragons. So even in the Freehold a family would sooner have their girls stay in the family to be sure not to give the dragons away to other families by marrying them away (it happens with Rhaenys when she brings dragons to the Velaryons).
2. The girls could inherit and govern in Valyrian society, in fact the Freehold's policies were done by all the landowners, and if a girl inherited, her uncle or first cousins would be the obvious choice to keep it in the family.
3. They were likely obsessed with blood magic as well, and marrying to a kin was the best way not to diluate it, but not necessarily a brother, like Aenys has to do with a cousin. And this matters because of the dragons, the moment the dragons are dead, the Targaryens start marrying outsiders.

Considering we don't practically know many Targaryen brides on Dragonstone, it's possible one of them wasn't even a Targaryen but just a Celtigar or a Velaryon, so breaking the female line even before Aegon I.

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I did actually explain quite a bit in more than one post above. But I will try to be clearer: After the Dance, the dragons died out. The living ones were killed because Aegon III wanted it that way, but then more could not be hatched even when people wanted to. Several Targaryen Kings tried to bring dragons back. Noone succeeded but Daenaerys.

Aegon III didn't order or want the dragons killed. He just ordered the dragon eggs in KL to be brought away after Laena's monstrous dragon was birth, but in fact he killed no dragon, the Last Dragon died on its own. 4 dragons survived the Dance, he seemingy has never ordered the death of his sister's dragon, Morning, and surely has never killed Sheepstealer and the Cannibal.

Aegon III actually tried to bring dragons back:

Quote

 

The look Stannis gave her was dark. "Nine mages crossed the sea to hatch Aegon the Third's cache of eggs. Baelor the Blessed prayed over his for half a year. Aegon the Fourth built dragons of wood and iron. Aerion Brightflame drank wildfire to transform himself. The mages failed, King Baelor's prayers went unanswered, the wooden dragons burned, and Prince Aerion died screaming."

(ASOS, Davos V)

And even Viserys II failed to hatch his egg, despite both him and Aegon descending from the female line.

Elaena Targaryen had a dragon egg, and she descended from a male Targaryen line (Aegon III) and a female one most likely (Daenaera Velaryon descends from Aethan Velaryon, and his daughter Alyssa is Aenys' cousin. Most likely Aethan was a brother to Velaena Velaryon, mother of the conquerors, hence Aethan's line descended from a Targaryen, so despite a very small one, even Corlys and Vaemond would have Targaryen blood), yet she failed to bring dragons back to life.

I think Daenerys succedeed because of a miracle, creating her own line of dragon from her blood indipendently of her mother's one.

 

 

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The period of dragon extinction coincides with the period when the dragon blood ceased to be passed down from both the mothers and the fathers. Viserys II married a Rogare of Lys, who MAY have descended from Saera at most, but even that is doubtful. Aegon IV, his wife Naerys, and their brother Aemon were therefore all only half "dragon blood" in a family explicitly obsessed with keeping bloodlines "pure". Then Naerys's son Daeron II (whether fathered by Aegon or Aemon doesn't matter), who was also only half "dragon blood" married a Martell. I don't know to what extent the Martells might have had traces of stray dragonlord blood from before that, but there is no sign of it, and it was probably minimal. So Daeron II's children dropped to only 1/4 "dragon blood".  He was succeeded by Maekar, who married a Dayne. While later Dayne are quite likely to have some "dragon blood" in their line, I don't think that was true of Maekar's wife Dyanna. So his children are down to 1/8 "dragon blood". Again, this is a family that is obsessed with keeping bloodlines pure, in a series that contains BLOOD magic.

This is true (although Viserys II's marriage wasn't a choice), but their blood wasn't already pure. Viserys II descends from Rhaenyra, who's in part Arryn. And both Daemon and Rhaenyra descneded from Velaryons and Massey, who while possibly having a drop of dragonblood, were certainly not "pure" or even 50% Targaryens. And if only a drop is sufficient, then yeah it could come from Saera.

9 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Daenaerys is fully "dragon". That is hard to contest. She walked out of a fire and hatched 3 dragons which had been extinct. So why could she succeed when others could not? Part of that is timing (comet, life pays for life etc.) but I am also quite certain that part of it is also WHO she is. Somehow in her, the "dragon blood" concentration is significantly higher than it was in Aegon V, or Aerys I or any of the others who concerned themselves with bringing back dragons. So either the Blackwood marriage brought back some dragonblood that was necessary, or Daenaerys is not who she thinks she is, and got it from somewhere else.

Westeros may be extreme patriarchy, but I don't think this story is. Who is a dragon and who is not is not onlly passed down by fathers.

I don't think a 0,1% difference in her concentration of dragonblood could result in a major narrative point. 

Also it's important to note that Daenerys could have even more dragon genes than her great grandad Aegon V. Each parent receives 50% from a grand parent, but a grandkid doesn't receive exactly 25% from every grandparent, because the genes in the chromosome of the egg/sperm are a random combination of the initial grandparents' chromosomes. So theoretically one could have 50% of their DNA by one grandparent and 0 from the other. And with recursive intermarring, this could have hightened Daenerys' "dragon genes" and made them higher than her parents, her grandparents and Aegon, possibly lowering the Blackwood and Daynes genes.

Anyway, if the Blackwoods actually have a female Taragryen as ancestor, my bet is on Rhaena's daughters' descendants. 6 daughters from a cousin line means the potential for halfof Westeros houses to have dragonblood honestly.

[Hippocras]

@Sace

I very much disagree that concentration doesn't matter. But again, we will see when the series is finished.

The reason I disagree is because if concentration did not matter, then keeping the bloodlines pure would not matter. And if keeping bloodlines pure did not matter, there would be no brother-sister marriages. Yes, they need to restrict the spread a little bit to retain control, but if that were the problem they were truly trying to address with the practice, then "purity" is simply not a relevant description. "Containment" and "purity" are not the same thing.

Edited July 17, 2023 by Hippocras

[Lord of Oldstones]

This female line thing is out of question. Alarra Massey's maternal grandmother could well be some Rosby or Stokeworth and tracing very very further a dock side witch. 

I think it would be strange for Lena Velaryon to settle for a Penrose unless people look down on her having a baseborn grandmother. 

Have to say its intruging to think of noble houses descended from Conqueror.  

 

[Sotan]

On 7/12/2023 at 2:14 PM, Hippocras said:

I personally tend to think that a daughter of Baela's married into House Blackwood.

I've been speculating on this same thing for a while now. 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Sotan

[Lord of Oldstones]

Rather than the Velaryons which makes no sense, chances are very high that youngest one of Cregan's daughters by Alysanne married back to House Blackwood. 

 

[Hippocras]

3 hours ago, Lord of Oldstones said:

Rather than the Velaryons which makes no sense, chances are very high that youngest one of Cregan's daughters by Alysanne married back to House Blackwood. 

I gave reasons why it makes perfect sense above, but to clarify:

1. Alyn Velaryon and Benjicot Blackwood fought together during the Dance of the Dragons.

2. Both were sidelined somewhat early in Aegon III's regency in spite of (or rather because of) their outsized contributions to the war, as well as their young age.

3. They then became good friends fighting together again in the Vale succession conflict of 134.

4. In 138, the Blackwoods were responsible for getting Addam Velaryon's bones returned to Driftmark. There is no reason given for why the Blackwoods would be the ones to return the bones and it is an odd detail since Alyn's brother died at Tumbleton, which is nowhere near Raventree Hall. So GRRM clearly had some other reason to drive home the deepening relationship between Alyn Velaryon and the Blackwoods.

Alyn and Baela's daughter Laena was born in 134. She then had a second child, probably a son born in 136 or 137. It is entirely reasonable to suspect that a betrothal of their third child was arranged as a result of Alyn's gratitude over the return of Addam's remains.

 

We are discussing the Blackwoods a lot here which was not really my intent. On the other hand I feel that I will be called nasty names and trashed again (as I was on the Four Storms bloodlines thread) if I start a thread on the Blackwoods, because we actually know absolutely nothing for certain. We don't have a family tree at all for House Blackwood (or Dondarrion). What we do have is information about relationships between characters, and those relationships are the basis for friendships, alliances, and so marriages.

One thing we do know is that there is a historic connection between the Blackwoods and the Stormlands. They inter-married with the Storm Kings before the Conquest, and continued to have ties with First Men rooted Houses in the Stormlands after the conquest. So when it comes to House Dondarrion, the combination of Blackwood connections to the Stormlands and regional connections within the Stormlands does give a vague fuzzy picture of general affinities and connections even without specific or recent familial ties.

Edited July 18, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:30 PM, Green Stag said:

I believe somewhere in Fire and Blood it is mentioned that Aegon III taking the throne the line of descent going through Rhaena was a sign to some that she was in fact the true heir.  In addition to female line being cut off shortly after the Dance, there also doesn't seem to anyone really spending any time at Dragonstone until Daeron the Good, so lack of "nurturing" of the Island and the dragons may have played some part.  However, Targaryen women do appear to have less prominent role overall after the Dance, so yes, maybe absence of female blood or presence has something to do with the eggs no longer hatching.  

I'm still of the opinion that Daena married into the Dondarrions.  Both Balor and Daemon Blackfyre were born in 170, so Daena having a daughter a few younger then Balor is highly possible, and if we are just looking at bloodlines, then politically a daughter of Daena would almost certainly be the best bet to combine bloodlines as she would be the eldest surviving child of Aegon the III, and arguable his heir.  Viserys II would want her somewhere safely out of the way - overseas he has no control, and a more powerful house could create trouble.  The Dondarrions seem to be on the same tier as house Penrose, so would be deemed "appropriate" for a princess who had given birth to a bastard son. 

Rheana is also a good possibility for the Dondarrions having Targaryen blood, given her six daughters.  Her line would also be before Baela after past judgement by the council.  

Interesting about Dragonstone, yes.

As for Daena, it is certainly possible she married a Dondarrion and I don't discount it. It is just that the context makes it the less likely option. The context is that Daena was considered willful and defiant, and as Aegon III's daughter she was a direct threat to Viserys II's reign if she could not be kept in line. If she remained in the Seven Kingdoms, she could have inspired a rebellion. Basically the Dance all over again. She had also just given birth to a bastard, making her a far from desirable match for the most prominent Houses of Westeros. We also know that Viserys II (who would have been the one to arrange the marriages of his nieces in 171) was very much preoccupied with trade across the Narrow sea. This is why I think that Daena being exhile to Tyrosh is the more likely way to interpret the family tree. Kiera of Tyrosh was married not once, but TWICE to princes who were directly in line for the throne. First Valarr, heir of Baelor who was originally heir of Daeron II, then Daeron who was the eldest son of Maekar. That only makes sense if Kiera descended from Daena. So I tend to think that it was more likely Daena's sister Rhaena, or a descendant of Baela or her sister (also Rhaena) who was the mother of Jena.