The Starks are Andals (or "what's in a name?")

[sweetsunray]

11 hours ago, Evolett said:

Bran being a builder suggests it.

Bran wasn't a literal or physical builder in the architectural sense though. Of this I am sure, since Winterfell was never ever leveled. An architect would have leveled the grounds at the very least. It's a hollow hill (well hills), a natural cave system formed because of the hot springs. And George tips us off with the crypts: cavernous, the oldest burials in the lower levels, ... Bran the Builder was a greenseer and Winterfell was a secret underground city at the time of Brandon the Builder. The first Stark thrones were natural weirwood thrones as we see being made for Bran Stark in BR's cave, and the underground "city" comparable to Beric's hollow hill or the cave that Arianne visits in the Rainwood. The lowest vaults (closed off by a collapse - on purpose?) will imo look like some of the spaces that Bran sees in BR's cave - weirwood thrones and scattered bones of human and animal alike, but no statues. The stone statues though are a reminder of this origin.

Even if Bran built that old roundtower (I think not) it does not compare to Storm's End or other architectural feats. When it comes to Bran the Builder it wasn't so much the stone constructions as the magical wards he helped to set up with the children of the forest. He was therefore more a builder of alliances.

I agree on the iron though. Sometimes people speculate whether the older vaults would have bronze swords instead of iron ones. I think they've always been iron swords, because the iron swords are once again a homage to a memory of another sword once wielded by Brandon - Dawn.

So, I do think that the building in stone came after Brandon the Builder really, but certainly predates the Andals.

[Evolett]

6 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Bran wasn't a literal or physical builder in the architectural sense though. Of this I am sure, since Winterfell was never ever leveled. An architect would have leveled the grounds at the very least. It's a hollow hill (well hills), a natural cave system formed because of the hot springs.

This is actually one of the reasons I think Bran the Builder literally was a builder and architect. Constructing a building on an unleveled surface is more difficult and challenging compared to building on a level surface. There are all kinds of considerations, all requiring knowledge exceeding that necessary for building on levelled ground, and even more so when constructing a building above a cave. It requires customized solutions to accommodate the uneven terrain and risks posed by the cave system below. Foundation design becomes more complex when building on uneven ground. It's important to get this right because the foundation provides support and stability to buildings above. Drainage within the castle compound becomes an issue on unlevelled ground as well. Either a drainage system is installed or the buildings are organised such that water can drain out of courtyards and open spaces. 

With cave systems below there is a potential for the development of sinkhholes as well as ground collapse or structural damage if the building is not adequately supported. In the case of Winterfell, it was probably better not to level the ground above the cave, since removing a considerable amount of topsoil would reduce the amount of depth needed for a foundation and potentially lead to structural instability of both cave and building. 

There is also the water piped from the hot springs into the castle to consider. Quite a feat of engineering and one we do not see elsewhere in Westeros (at least not to my knowledge). Modern piping systems involve a network of pipes, pumps and  pressure regulators, to ensure adequate water supply and pressure at various levels of the building. Besides the pipes which are possibly made of copper, it's doubtful Winterfell has any of these features. But water flow in pipes is dependent on differences in pressure within the system and this can occur naturally because the grounds are uneven in height. 

Bran may have learned to incoporate magical wards into buildings from the CotF but I think his skill at building went beyond that. Bran really was a builder in my opinion, along with his ancestors and descendants up to a certain point. Winterfell shows many features of advanced level contruction. Had he just built without any expertise, Wintefell would not be heated by hot springs and would have collapsed long ago.  

[sweetsunray]

1 minute ago, Evolett said:

This is actually one of the reasons I think Bran the Builder literally was a builder and architect. Constructing a building on an unleveled surface is more difficult and challenging compared to building on a level surface. There are all kinds of considerations, all requiring knowledge exceeding that necessary for building on levelled ground, and even more so when constructing a building above a cave. It requires customized solutions to accommodate the uneven terrain and risks posed by the cave system below. Foundation design becomes more complex when building on uneven ground. It's important to get this right because the foundation provides support and stability to buildings above. Drainage within the castle compound becomes an issue on unlevelled ground as well. Either a drainage system is installed or the buildings are organised such that water can drain out of courtyards and open spaces. 

With cave systems below there is a potential for the development of sinkhholes as well as ground collapse or structural damage if the building is not adequately supported. In the case of Winterfell, it was probably better not to level the ground above the cave, since removing a considerable amount of topsoil would reduce the amount of depth needed for a foundation and potentially lead to structural instability of both cave and building. 

There is also the water piped from the hot springs into the castle to consider. Quite a feat of engineering and one we do not see elsewhere in Westeros (at least not to my knowledge). Modern piping systems involve a network of pipes, pumps and  pressure regulators, to ensure adequate water supply and pressure at various levels of the building. Besides the pipes which are possibly made of copper, it's doubtful Winterfell has any of these features. But water flow in pipes is dependent on differences in pressure within the system and this can occur naturally because the grounds are uneven in height. 

Bran may have learned to incoporate magical wards into buildings from the CotF but I think his skill at building went beyond that. Bran really was a builder in my opinion, along with his ancestors and descendants up to a certain point. Winterfell shows many features of advanced level contruction. Had he just built without any expertise, Wintefell would not be heated by hot springs and would have collapsed long ago.  

No, it does not prove he was a builder. Yes, it is difficult to build on uneven ground, and this uneveness is the reason why the oldest construction on the grounds is a round tower.

An architect would level the ground. A greenseer who rules from beneath his weirwood wouldn't level the ground and would have no interest in building anything above. Over the later generations, Winterfell was built around the weirwood. Bran makes this clear when he thinks of Winterfell as a stone tree that grew in time. The godswood lies at the heart of the domain. All hints point to Winterfell originally being an underground city.

The water pipe system is in a part of Winterfell that we know for sure was not built by "the Builder", but centuries and centuries later. And there would be no need for a water pipe system while living underground, because the cave system is what caused the hot springs in the first place, and temperatures underground are stable. 

Why are you so certain nothing collapsed long ago? I imagine that the Stark who decided to build above ground would first have attempted to build a square tower near the entrance of the cave system (now the crypts). It would have collapsed soon, because of the caverns beneath it. Trial and error led to the round tower, which is now the oldest construction still standing.

And while the round tower shows ingenuity and artistry that tower pales in comparison to Storm's End and the Hightower. If Brandon was an architect then we get a boy genius architect at Storm's End but a mediocre architect who forgot the most basics as an adult.

A magical ward does not need to be incorporated into buildings. Bloodraven's cave entrance is a ward: it's open. Any animal, singer or human is free to pass it to go in or outside. It's the wights and Others who cannot pass it. There are numerous hints that the entrance of the crypts is warded too. And if so, then Brandon had even less incentive to build anything above ground.

 

[SaffronLady]

Coming back onto the exact wording of the OP, I think it might be useful to look at known some personal names in House Stark, since these tend to be a mark of "ethnicity" for ASOIAF characters. So I ran a quick and incomplete wiki check, feel free to supplement this by A Search of Ice and Fire.

Brandon: Shared by Houses Norrey and Tallhart

Jon: Shared by too many houses to be useful for analysis

Rickard: Shared by Houses Karstark, Wylde, Tyrell, Ryswell, Liddle, Thorne, Rowan and Redwyne

Theon: Functionally not shared (Theon Greyjoy is a Stark ward, and the other Theon Greyjoy is a retroactive addition to the list of Greyjoys; when I say functionally not shared from here on, think "shared by minor character(s), including A World of Ice and Fire")

Edric(k): Shared by House Dayne

Karlon: Not shared (Founder of House Karstark)

Harlon: Shared by Houses Botley, Greyjoy and Tarly

Dorren: Not shared

Rodrik: Shared by too many houses to be useful for analysis

Benjen: Not shared

Eyron: Functionally not shared

Eddard: Shared by House Karstark

Edderion: Not shared

Walton: Shared by Houses Frey and Towers

Jorah: Shared by Houses Mormont and Mallister

Jonos: Shared by Houses Arryn, Bracken and Frey

Edwyn: Shared by Houses Frey, Osgrey and Tarth

Osric: Shared by Houses Arryn and Umber

Alaric: Functionally not shared

Alarra: Shared by House Massey

Ellard: Shared by House Crane

Cregan: Shared by House Karstark

Rickon: Not shared

Bennard: Shared by House Brune

Elric: Not shared

Sansa: Shared by House Hunter

Serena: Shared by Houses Blackfyre and Royce

Sarra: Shared by House Frey

Alys: Shared by too many houses to be useful for analysis

Raya: Not shared

Mariah: Shared by House Martell

TLDR: Tradecraft should have done the wiki-checking himself instead of getting someone else to do this by posting this flimsy excuse of a theory. Still, that House Stark has personal names not shared is quite interesting. One would imagine lesser Houses brushing up their prestige by picking up names used by any Stark, such should the prestige of a House that ruled the North be, IMO.

[oldbus]

11 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

[Winterfell is built on a] hollow hill (well hills), a natural cave system formed because of the hot springs. And George tips us off with the crypts: cavernous, the oldest burials in the lower levels

 

Thank you for this insight - I've been wondering for some time about the oldest crypts being lower than the younger ones.

In-world this makes no sense if they are dug/hacked out of the ground ("Well folks, we're going to put in some extra hard work to digs our crypt super deep so that future generations can build crypts about ours in a thousand years...")

Out-world it makes perfect sense: in a story the deeper you go, the more mysterious things should be (and potentially dangerous as well).

Up until now I thought I'd have to just accept the out-world reason and not look rationally in-world.

But, with a cave system when you are trying to hide away from harsh winters (and anything horrible that came with those winters), you'd want to go fairly deep and it is legit to not occupy the shallowest cave.

[sweetsunray]

8 hours ago, oldbus said:

Thank you for this insight - I've been wondering for some time about the oldest crypts being lower than the younger ones.

In-world this makes no sense if they are dug/hacked out of the ground ("Well folks, we're going to put in some extra hard work to digs our crypt super deep so that future generations can build crypts about ours in a thousand years...")

Out-world it makes perfect sense: in a story the deeper you go, the more mysterious things should be (and potentially dangerous as well).

Up until now I thought I'd have to just accept the out-world reason and not look rationally in-world.

But, with a cave system when you are trying to hide away from harsh winters (and anything horrible that came with those winters), you'd want to go fairly deep and it is legit to not occupy the shallowest cave.

Exactly!

Hot springs can be caused by two things: magma activity closer to the surface (volcanic areas) and heating groundwater OR caves and fissures in the earth crust that go so deep they get close enough to the magma beneath the crust. We have no indication really from other tales that Winterfell is a volcanic area. But we do have allusions to the vaults going very deep.

BTW the etymology of the word crypt actually means cavern.

Do you wonder what would be at the lowest level, the one nobody can enter anymore because of a collapse? A statue of Brandon? I say you'd find the same scene that Bran sees in BR's cave: weirwood thrones and bones, human bones, children of the forest bones and direwolf bones (second life). Combine the imagery of BR's cave and Beric's cave with people sheltering there and the tale on how the Bortherhood without Banners came to be and what their goal is (protect the realm), and we basically get the echoed story of the formation of the Night's Watch (who put their banners/shields away).

Certainly during winter of the Long Night it makes sense to live underground up North. Theon remarks on the crypts being relatively warm when he goes into the crypts with Barbrey, or at least warmer than the snowstorms above ground. Temperatures underground are stable. This is why people of Mole's Town live mostly underground now.

As for the crypt statues: I believe they preserve the memory of what the Starks used to be... greenseer rulers in the hollow hill on weirwood root thrones and moss for cushions, and their direwolf by their side for a second life, and a memory of a steel sword (Dawn).