Lyanna of Troy (or "On Matrilineal Succession in ASOIAF")

[Tradecraft]

Quote

    I’ve never had a crown on my head or sat my arse on a bloody throne, if that’s what you’re asking,” Mance replied. “My birth is as low as a man’s can get, no septon’s ever smeared my head with oils, I don’t own any castles, and my queen wears furs and amber, not silk and sapphires. I am my own champion, my own fool, and my own harpist. You don’t become King-beyond-the-Wall because your father was. The free folk won’t follow a name, and they don’t care which brother was born first. They follow fighters. When I left the Shadow Tower there were five men making noises about how they might be the stuff of kings. Tormund was one, the Magnar another. The other three I slew, when they made it plain they’d sooner fight than follow. -

 A Storm of Swords, Chapter 73, Jon X.

It's all Greek (legends)

Lyanna is a clear parallel for Helen(a) of Troy.

Just as the Greeks go to war supposedly for Helen, Westeros (The North) goes to war for Lyanna... In a broad way... I know there are sticklers out there who might argue this point. 

Lyanna is the turning point in the conflict, so is Helen of Troy. 

I find this fact interesting, because these ancient Greek stories (The Iliad, the Odyssey, and even Oedipus Rex) are about matrilineal succession (or descent through the female line). In other words, the kingship (or lordship) is tied to a female heir and whomever marries her becomes king (or lord). It is a hereditary kingship (lordship) but it does not follow the male line (father to son). It passes mother to daughter. 

 

Matrilineal Succession 

I often find these terms are confused with one another; Matrilineal, Matrilocal, matriarchal. 

And so, I shall define Matrilineal:

-Descent traced through the female. This is because all children belong to the mother's family and not the biological father. The children are raised in the mother's household. The sister's brother help raise their nieces and nephews as if they were their own children (they do not raise their own biological children, which they may not even be aware of their existence). Uncles in this way, act as the male guardian of any the children of his sister(s). Under Matrilineal succession, kingship passes through the female line and men cannot pass it to each other. Men become king by marrying the female heir (and lose the kingship when the next female heir marries).  

 

With this definition, let us review these Ancient Greek Legends. 

 

The Iliad 

-Helen was sought after by almost every bachelor of note in Greece. The competition was so fierce, that each of the suitors swore to protect her marriage to the winner (lest there be reprisals or cheating in the contest for Helen). Now this intense competition is curious and in our modern times, we might not know what to make of it. Most people would be inclined to believe that Helen was just very beautiful and hence all the suitors. However, what explains the number of suitors best (and the competition) is matrilineal succession. Whomever married Helen won an immense fortune, a kingship even.

The Odyssey 

-The Odyssey also has suitors this time is for Odysseus' wife Penelope. Her husband is presumed dead by the suitors, although Penelope dutifully awaits his return home. The competition among the suitors is intriguing. Odysseus just fought a 10 year war over a woman who was crowded by suitors in an intense competition for her hand. So it is no coincidence that Penelope too is surrounded by suitors. Like the story of Helen of Troy, one could presume the prize is Penelope's beauty. But it would make much more sense if Penelope was the female heir and it his marriage to her which bestows kingship (lordship). The suitors do not care about the son of Odysseus because he is a non-factor. He cannot inherit the kingship from his father Odysseus, and so they have him serve them food and drink.

Oedipus Rex

-An interesting tale. to say the least. Oedipus accidentally kills his father and marries his mother. This last bit is the most fascinating. Why did he marry the old king's wife? Some might say for "continuity" or again for her beauty or her wisdom. But like the other stories, it makes much more sense if Oedipus had to marry Jocasta if he wanted the Kingship. 

 

Textual evidence for Matrilineality?

I believe so. 

-Sansa Stark: Married to Tyrion for her claim to Winterfell (she is in effect a "female heir"... albeit a cleverly disguised one because everyone thinks the other Stark boys are killed by Tyrion)

-Alys Karstark's uncle wants her married for her claim to Karhold. Jon beats him to the punch. 

-Arianne Martell claims to have the best claim to rule Sunspear and Dorne. 

-Bronn claims Stokeworth via marriage to a female heir. 

-"Arya" Stark marrying Ramsay Bolton, for her claim to Winterfell

-The Starks were obsessed with marrying their vassals' daughters as they conquered the North. Were they after hostages or should we consider matrilineal claims?

-Littlefinger marries Lysa Arryn for control of the Eyrie (Lysa does not have a claim to the Eyrie, only temporary control over the heir)

-While Patrilineal succession is well established in Westeros proper (excluding Dorne), it seems that on the periphery of Westeros where Andal influence is weak that matrilineal succession has or could have survived their coming. 

 

 

 

The Lyanna Mystery Deepens

So if the model on which Lyanna was based has to do with Matrilineal succession (King or lordship is bestowed on the one who marries the female heir), might not the Lyanna story include matrilineal succession?

I have looked for proof of Matrilineal succession in the Stark family tree. But it is impossible to know this way. The family tree is patrilineal. Women come and go from the family tree, but we do not know where they come from. Patrilineal records allow us to follow the males, but they do not do a great job of following the women. It cannot be proven or disproven using only a patrilineal family tree. 

Therefore, the clear parallel with Helen of Troy in both;

-the namesake (Lyanna = Helen(a)) 

-in the circumstances of their adduction/flight and the war brought on by the abrogated marriage pact. 

This parallel forces us to consider that Lyanna's disappearance was not about her beauty and love of her but, of her status of matrilineal heir to Winterfell.  

Thus it could be said, that ASOIAF, at it's core is a literal fairy tale. And not the light and bubbly kind mind you!

 

Fairy Tales of Old 

Fairy tales are some of the oldest stories we have available. They are oral records, pre-ceding written records. 

These stories together provide clues about our pre-historic past. 

And if you're thinking to yourself what could possibly be shared in common across these pre-historical fairy tales... if you guessed "Matrilineal Succession"... well congratulations! You win a prize!

Fairy tales are filed with clues that point toward a pre-historic cultural norm where families were defined through the mother (and not the biological father). 

Furthermore, we see strange things in these stories which upon first glance make no sense unless viewed through the lense of matrilineal succession. 

We see;

-Father's giving impossible tasks to would-be suitors, and fathers viewing these suitors as hostile (the impossible tasks delay the king/lord losing his power when the daughter weds)

-Father's marrying their own daughters (to prevent another from taking their throne)

 

The latter is a crucial one to consider*. And to drive home the point that ASOIAF is a fairy tale, may I remind you that Father-Daughter marriage and incest exists in ASOIAF (as is seen with Craster and his daughter-wives)  
 

 

 

 

*Nothing to see here, move along. 

Edited August 1, 2023 by Tradecraft

[SaffronLady]

I orignally made a long post about power of usufructs and lines of succession you claim to be matrilineal but could either be explained in alternative ways, but my internet decided to fuck me, so I will just restore just one little bit:

1 hour ago, Tradecraft said:

-Bronn claims Stokeworth via marriage to a female heir.

However, the wiki helpfully tells us that House Stokeworth is not, in principle, a matrilineal house:

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Lord Stokeworth during the Dance of the Dragons, executed by Rhaenyra Targaryen.^[13]

• His daughter, his elder child.^[14]
• His son, his younger child, who succeeded him as Lord of Stokeworth.

And as for Arianne Martell ... she's Dornish. By the local customs of absolute cognatic succession, she does have the best claim to Sunspear and Dorne as the eldest child. If she inherits over older brother(s), then that is matrilineal succession in action.

[Sandy Clegg]

2 hours ago, Tradecraft said:

Lyanna is a clear parallel for Helen(a) of Troy.

 

There's a 2020 thread you may like to check out about this:

 

 

[Tradecraft]

2 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

There's a 2020 thread you may like to check out about this:

 

GRRM is a liar. Especially when it comes to protecting his plotlines. 

 

[sweetsunray]

Lyanna has some parallels with Helen of Troy, Aphrodite (getting the apple),  and Persephone.

https://sweeticeandfiresunray.com/2015/10/07/persephone-of-the-winterfell-crypts/

[Alester Florent]

Given that the Trojan War in general (and the Iliad in particular) is perhaps the most influential story in the history of western storytelling, and the number of different characters and subplots that appear, I think it will be hard to find many stories where parallels can't be drawn to some extent.

And it's fun to try to draw parallels. We could for instance say look at Lyanna as Helen, Robert a kind of combined Agamemnon and Menelaus, Jon Arryn as Nestor, Aerys as Priam, Rhaegar a combination Hector and Paris, Tywin as Odysseus (Gregor being Ajax the Lesser), Pycelle as Antenor, Aegon a combination Astyanax/Polydorus.

But although some of the comparisons are compelling, most of them break down when we look at the specifics. Robert isn't really anything like Agamemnon or Menelaus in character: in character he is perhaps most similar to Diomedes or Achilles, and in appearance he is more like Ajax the Great than anyone else. There is no real parallel character in the Iliad for Brandon, Rickard, or Jaime (you could try to draw a comparison with Helenus or Neoptolemus for Jaime, but they don't really fit), or to Ned for that matter: honourable Hector is perhaps the most Ned-like character, but his role in the story is completely different. (Maybe Idomeneus as per his Iliad depiction, but he's a pretty minor character). Priam, in most conventional tellings, is nothing like Aerys.

Or we could compare Ned and Robert to Achilles and Patroclus in terms of the closeness of their relationship (NB, I accept that a romantic relationship between Achilles and Patroclus is a valid interpretation of the myths, but I don't think it's the only one and in some ways I think a very close platonic relationship is more interesting) but none of the rest of their actions really fit together. (We might instead look at Renly and the Tyrells as a comparison there, with Renly/Achilles killed through treachery (as explicit in some versions of the myths) and the armour-imitation scheme copied and deployed with similarly devastating effect... but it's the other way round, with "Patroclus" there avenging "Achilles" and it's Garlan wearing the armour rather than Renly's BFF Loras.)

I think it's more likely that the Iliad is an indirect influence than a direct one: Robert's rebellion is clearly meant to be at first glance a fairly routine edition of Standard Fantasy/Medieval Romance Plot 2: Hero fights evil king to rescue girlfriend*. That's a story that's been told a thousand times and GRRM will have encountered dozens if not hundreds of versions of it - and the familiarity is the point. ASoIaF is - almost explicitly - a deconstruction of that kind of story and in particular exploring what happens after "THE END" and whether "happily" really is "ever after". (Spoilers, it isn't).

Those stories were themselves undoubtedly influenced by the Iliad on some level (many of them indirectly in themselves), and will hit a number of the same beats. So when we come across something which at first glance is a pretty cookie-cutter version of that plot, of course there will be elements that seem similar to bits of the Epic Cycle, but to build on the musical analogy, that's largely because there are only a certain number of chords available to the composer when working in given genres, and that some of them end up matching doesn't necessarily mean there was any direct inspiration or borrowing at all. 

There might be a couple of things that were intentionally borrowed (we know GRRM likes his references and easter eggs) but I think they are more likely to be lurking in the background of the story than front and centre.

 

*Plot 1 is "Hero goes on a quest to find magic thingy", which of course is even older than the Iliad as stories go.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Mourning Star]

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

It's all Greek (legends)

 

I love the topic, and would agree that broadly one can find many parallels to the classics, the Illiad and the Aeneid, King Arthur, and others.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

Lyanna is a clear parallel for Helen(a) of Troy.

To some extent, but it's by no means a one to one comparison, nor the only parallel that's easy to construct. An Arthur/Lancelot/Guinevere parallel also jumps out, especially given the name of the Tower of Joy seemingly being a direct reference to the Joyous Guard.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

Just as the Greeks go to war supposedly for Helen, Westeros (The North) goes to war for Lyanna... In a broad way... I know there are sticklers out there who might argue this point.

While parallels exist, it seems a stretch to try and make the larger plots match up.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

Lyanna is the turning point in the conflict, so is Helen of Troy. 

I find this fact interesting, because these ancient Greek stories (The Iliad, the Odyssey, and even Oedipus Rex) are about matrilineal succession (or descent through the female line). In other words, the kingship (or lordship) is tied to a female heir and whomever marries her becomes king (or lord). It is a hereditary kingship (lordship) but it does not follow the male line (father to son). It passes mother to daughter. 

I'm not convinced that this is entirely true. It's an interesting idea, and appealing for a modern reinterpretation of old myths, but I think a little scrutiny undermines the case.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

Matrilineal Succession 

I often find these terms are confused with one another; Matrilineal, Matrilocal, matriarchal. 

And so, I shall define Matrilineal:

-Descent traced through the female. This is because all children belong to the mother's family and not the biological father. The children are raised in the mother's household. The sister's brother help raise their nieces and nephews as if they were their own children (they do not raise their own biological children, which they may not even be aware of their existence). Uncles in this way, act as the male guardian of any the children of his sister(s). Under Matrilineal succession, kingship passes through the female line and men cannot pass it to each other. Men become king by marrying the female heir (and lose the kingship when the next female heir marries).

This is not, to my knowledge, how Greek inheritance usually worked historically.

But that said, stories are stories!

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

  With this definition, let us review these Ancient Greek Legends. 

 

The Iliad 

-Helen was sought after by almost every bachelor of note in Greece. The competition was so fierce, that each of the suitors swore to protect her marriage to the winner (lest there be reprisals or cheating in the contest for Helen). Now this intense competition is curious and in our modern times, we might not know what to make of it. Most people would be inclined to believe that Helen was just very beautiful and hence all the suitors. However, what explains the number of suitors best (and the competition) is matrilineal succession. Whomever married Helen won an immense fortune, a kingship even.

There are several versions of the myth, but usually Helen was the daughter of Zeus and Leda, born from an egg.

Helen's stepfather was Tyndareus, king of Sparta, and it's true that he steps down (or dies) and Menelaus becomes king. But, my understanding is that Tyndareus inherited the throne from his father Oebalus and not Leda, who was Aetolian.

A better explanation, in my opinion, for Tyndareus being followed by Menelaus, and not one of his twin sons Castor and Pollux, was consolidation of power. Choosing one twin over the other might have led to war, and Tyndareus's fear over conflict resulting from who he would choose as Helen's husband is the crux of the story. In fact you mention Oedipus here, and we see a good example there of Oedipus's son's devolving into war over Thebes when he split their inheritance, resulting in the Seven Against Thebes.

So while it may have been clear that whoever married Helen would inherit the kingship of Sparta, I don't think there is clear evidence of matrilineal succession so much as an attempt to consolidate power.

Or if you prefer, while matrilineal succession could occur, it was not the norm.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

The Odyssey 

-The Odyssey also has suitors this time is for Odysseus' wife Penelope. Her husband is presumed dead by the suitors, although Penelope dutifully awaits his return home. The competition among the suitors is intriguing. Odysseus just fought a 10 year war over a woman who was crowded by suitors in an intense competition for her hand. So it is no coincidence that Penelope too is surrounded by suitors. Like the story of Helen of Troy, one could presume the prize is Penelope's beauty. But it would make much more sense if Penelope was the female heir and it his marriage to her which bestows kingship (lordship). The suitors do not care about the son of Odysseus because he is a non-factor. He cannot inherit the kingship from his father Odysseus, and so they have him serve them food and drink.

Odysseus inherited Ithaca from his father Laertes, Penelope was a Spartan Princess, cousin to Helen (or at least niece to Tyndareus, given the whole Zeus thing).

Telemachus, son of Odysseus, was an infant when Odysseus goes to Troy. The suitor Antinous even says they should kill Telemachus.

On 8/1/2023 at 10:31 AM, Tradecraft said:

Oedipus Rex

-An interesting tale. to say the least. Oedipus accidentally kills his father and marries his mother. This last bit is the most fascinating. Why did he marry the old king's wife? Some might say for "continuity" or again for her beauty or her wisdom. But like the other stories, it makes much more sense if Oedipus had to marry Jocasta if he wanted the Kingship. 

Oedipus is elected king by the city of Thebes and its acting regent Creon after solving the riddle of the sphinx who had been terrorizing the city.

Edited August 2, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Alester Florent]

3 hours ago, Mourning Star said:

This is not, to my knowledge, how Greek inheritance usually worked historically.

There is, of course, the Robert Graves approach to the myths that they reflect (often obliquely) a prehistoric (or at least proto-historic) edition of Greek culture which had more matriarchal elements and common themes of sacrificial kingship, etc. That is all very speculative, though.

 

 

Quote

Odysseus inherited Ithaca from his father Laertes, Penelope was a Spartan Princess, cousin to Helen (or at least niece to Tyndareus, given the whole Zeus thing).

Telemachus, son of Odysseus, was an infant when Odysseus goes to Troy. The suitor Antinous even says they should kill Telemachus.

Oedipus is elected king by the city of Thebes and its acting regent Creon after solving the riddle of the sphinx who had been terrorizing the city.

There are nevertheless a couple of curiosities here. Laertes is still alive when Odysseus returns to Ithaca, but his political standing seems negligible. If Odysseus inherited the kingship from Laertes, why is Laertes still alive, and given that he is alive, why is it Penelope, not him, who is the focus of court life at Ithaca? (Ithaca is not unique in this strangeness, mind: some versions of the myths have Tyndareus still living at the fall of Troy despite Menelaus's kingship; there is a similar issue with Telamon and Ajax). Bearing in mind the timelines, too, Telemachus should be at least 20 by the events of the Odyssey, surely old enough to become king in his own right. (The timelines are of course a bit wonky: bearing in mind the age of Neoptolemus, who is younger than Telemachus but was old enough to fight by war's end, Telemachus should reasonably be even older than 20, in some versions, at least 28... Homer clearly isn't too fussed about this kind of thing).

Oedipus's election as king of Thebes is a coincidence, but it is interesting that he is subsequently married to the widow of the previous king in order to (presumably) grant him some legitimacy.

There are at least two other examples of succession passing through the female line that I can think of: Lacedaemon becoming king of Laconia by marrying Sparta (daughter of the previous king). Adrastus marries one of his daughters to Tydeus, an exile. Tydeus is soon killed in battle, but their son Diomedes becomes king after Adrastus (out of preference to the male-line heir, Cyanippus, who was admittedly an infant at the time). The difference in each of these cases to the Penelope/Jocasta instances is of course that Sparta and Deipyle were daughters of the previous king and thus continuing his bloodline, whereas Penelope wasn't even a Cephallenian, let alone having a claim to Ithaca in her own right. Jocasta was at least a Theban native, if not closely related to a previous king.

 

It's not that crazy though that an incoming king could seek to associate himself with the old ruler in some way by adopting the trappings of it, up to and including the previous king's widow. The obvious historical example is Cnut's marriage to Emma of Normandy after he conquered England. Emma had no claim to the throne in her own right, nor was she even English, but she was nevertheless an influential figure and marrying her was a shrewd move to consolidate power. As late as the 15th century, widowed queens in England were believed to be sufficient political assets to require statutory regulation of their remarriage.

But those are practical, political considerations, and don't have any matrilineal conotations. I'm inclined to believe the same is the case in ASoIaF.

 

 

[Mourning Star]

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

There is, of course, the Robert Graves approach to the myths that they reflect (often obliquely) a prehistoric (or at least proto-historic) edition of Greek culture which had more matriarchal elements and common themes of sacrificial kingship, etc. That is all very speculative, though.

I love the speculation, but tend to think this sort of exercise is more an academic retrospection, using current knowledge and moral judgement, than a historic analysis. Just my opinion.

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

There are nevertheless a couple of curiosities here. Laertes is still alive when Odysseus returns to Ithaca, but his political standing seems negligible. If Odysseus inherited the kingship from Laertes, why is Laertes still alive, and given that he is alive, why is it Penelope, not him, who is the focus of court life at Ithaca? (Ithaca is not unique in this strangeness, mind: some versions of the myths have Tyndareus still living at the fall of Troy despite Menelaus's kingship; there is a similar issue with Telamon and Ajax). Bearing in mind the timelines, too, Telemachus should be at least 20 by the events of the Odyssey, surely old enough to become king in his own right. (The timelines are of course a bit wonky: bearing in mind the age of Neoptolemus, who is younger than Telemachus but was old enough to fight by war's end, Telemachus should reasonably be even older than 20, in some versions, at least 28... Homer clearly isn't too fussed about this kind of thing).

A few things here.

Kings stepping down, but still being alive seemed, if not common, at least having occurred multiple times.

In some versions of Oedipus, for example, he even continues to live in Thebes as his sons war and kill each other.

Time moves on, and the strong rule the weak. Penelope was a the wife of the most recent king and marrying here would bring legitimacy to a strong claimant to the throne of Ithaca.

Usurpation, or a change in ruler/dynasty is not uncommon throughout history. Having a connection, even a ceremonial one, to the preceding dynasty is also a common tool to add legitimacy.

The timeline, in Homer as in ASoIaF is a bit wonky!

(Fun Fact: in some versions of the story Homer is the child of Telemachus)

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Oedipus's election as king of Thebes is a coincidence, but it is interesting that he is subsequently married to the widow of the previous king in order to (presumably) grant him some legitimacy.

That is also kind of a core part of the story though, and predicted by the oracle.

Again, marrying the queen or daughter of a preceding dynasty, especially one where the male line is extinct, is a relatively common historical trope.

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

There are at least two other examples of succession passing through the female line that I can think of: Lacedaemon becoming king of Laconia by marrying Sparta (daughter of the previous king). Adrastus marries one of his daughters to Tydeus, an exile. Tydeus is soon killed in battle, but their son Diomedes becomes king after Adrastus (out of preference to the male-line heir, Cyanippus, who was admittedly an infant at the time). The difference in each of these cases to the Penelope/Jocasta instances is of course that Sparta and Deipyle were daughters of the previous king and thus continuing his bloodline, whereas Penelope wasn't even a Cephallenian, let alone having a claim to Ithaca in her own right. Jocasta was at least a Theban native, if not closely related to a previous king.

I would have to brush up on my stories, and will use this as an excuse to do so (thanks!).

I tend to think, power and expedience always trump tradition in the history of power. But, again, I'll need to do a little homework before I have a more well thought out answer.

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

It's not that crazy though that an incoming king could seek to associate himself with the old ruler in some way by adopting the trappings of it, up to and including the previous king's widow. The obvious historical example is Cnut's marriage to Emma of Normandy after he conquered England. Emma had no claim to the throne in her own right, nor was she even English, but she was nevertheless an influential figure and marrying her was a shrewd move to consolidate power. As late as the 15th century, widowed queens in England were believed to be sufficient political assets to require statutory regulation of their remarriage.

This is kind of what I was saying, and there are so so many examples throughout history.

13 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But those are practical, political considerations, and don't have any matrilineal conotations. I'm inclined to believe the same is the case in ASoIaF.

As do I. Cheers

Edited August 3, 2023 by Mourning Star

[Sandy Clegg]

I think I agree that the Iliad is so influential that it pervades most 'epic' storytelling, but George has also come out and said it wasn't a direct influence:

Quote

.... did you draw inspiration from the Illiad, particularly the Siege of Troy, when you drew up your saga of the War of the Usurper?

I draw inspiration from everywhere, like most writers. But THE ILIAD was not a direct influence, by any means.

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Iliads_Influence

Edited August 3, 2023 by Sandy Clegg

[SaffronLady]

In lieu of attempting to rebuild the megapost, I will instead simply recategorize some of the examples used in the OP, claimed to be those of matrilineal succession. Of course, this is again just another person's view on the examples involved, feel free to re-categorize and re-interpret them just like I do.

In ASOIAF

Lyanna: She was betrothed to Robert. While the modern human, accustomed to divorces, does not appreciate the weight of the situation, for ancients taking a betrothed woman was serious business, and enough cause for war. And as the eldest son, Robert was the Lord Paramount of the Stormlands whether or not he marries Lyanna, and Brandon Stark would be Lord Paramount of the North. In some alternate reality where Robert marries Lyanna and both Brandon and Ned's lines die out, Robert's children do have some sort of claim to the North. Still, that situation has no weight in canon, and matrilineal succession remains a non-issue for Robert's Rebellion.

House Stokeworth: Bron has the benefit of circumstance - the last 2 generations of House Stokeworth were all women. As the wiki example demonstrates, in principle House Stokeworth is a patrilineal house, so should some male Stokeworth cousin challenge Bron and his Stokeworth wife, things have the potential to get messy between claimants b/c neither is clearly stronger than the other.

House Stark: Same as Stokeworth - circumstancial matrilineal, in principle patrilineal.

House Martell (and Dorne, really): Absolute cognatic succession means the eldest child inherits regardless of sex. Arianne has the best claim to Sunspear not because she is a woman, but because she is the Prince of Dorne's eldest child.

LF and Lysa: Power of usufruct (expanded on my analysis of Penelope at bottom of post).

Outside of ASOIAF

Helen and her suitors: While Helen was an ancient version of Princess Peach (Menelaus was basically Mario) and stood to inherit nothing, she was a daughter of Zeus, and given what happened when her brother Castor was killed (spoiler: Zeus avenged him), one could reasonably assume marrying Helen has supernatural benefits because she is literally half-divine. No need for inheritances and kingships to come in play. As the Encyclopedia Britannica helpfully notes,

Quote

Menelaus was a prominent figure in the Iliad and the Odyssey, where he was promised a place in Elysium after his death because he was married to a daughter of Zeus.

Penelope and her suitors: Power of usufruct, end of story. Penelope was no claimant - but, as the mother of the missing king's son, she has the power to administrate the realm in her son's minority. If she remarries, her son's life would be in danger b/c his death would cut the last links between the House of Odysseus and the kingship - something anyone who already managed to marry Penelope would want to do, since Telemachus' death would mark the beginning of a new dynasty.

[Tradecraft]

13 hours ago, Sandy Clegg said:

I think I agree that the Iliad is so influential that it pervades most 'epic' storytelling, but George has also come out and said it wasn't a direct influence:

https://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Iliads_Influence

A bard's truth is different from yours or mine. 

[LadySage]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this is the right place for this. But the whole "Neverborn" thing, could these be babies born by c-section? Hmmm...

[Alester Florent]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:29 PM, SaffronLady said:

Outside of ASOIAF

Helen and her suitors: While Helen was an ancient version of Princess Peach (Menelaus was basically Mario) and stood to inherit nothing, she was a daughter of Zeus, and given what happened when her brother Castor was killed (spoiler: Zeus avenged him), one could reasonably assume marrying Helen has supernatural benefits because she is literally half-divine. No need for inheritances and kingships to come in play. As the Encyclopedia Britannica helpfully notes,

Penelope and her suitors: Power of usufruct, end of story. Penelope was no claimant - but, as the mother of the missing king's son, she has the power to administrate the realm in her son's minority. If she remarries, her son's life would be in danger b/c his death would cut the last links between the House of Odysseus and the kingship - something anyone who already managed to marry Penelope would want to do, since Telemachus' death would mark the beginning of a new dynasty.

Further, while Odysseus's parentage does seem to be disputed, there's no version of the mythology of which I'm aware in which Penelope was a native Ithacan: she's a Spartan princess.

As for Orestes, while both Jocasta and Laius were native Thebans, it was Laius who had the royal descent and was believed to be the last of the Cadmean dynasty: Jocasta's ancestry was non-royal. The marriage to Jocasta does seem to be about continuity and nothing to do with matrillineal descent (or alternatively, it's the erstwhile regent Creon seeking to keep a handle on power by marrying his niece to the new king) After Oedipus's exile, the kingship is divided (disastrously) between Oedipus's sons, and when they are both killed, power reverts to the regent Creon for their sons, with Oedipus's daughters sidelined (and indeed, one of them executed for disobeying Creon's orders). The Theban royal family is pretty much a straight patrilineal line from Cadmus down to Autesion, passing thereafter to an unrelated house: at no point does it pass through a female line.

Inheritance through the female line is not unknown in the Greek myths, of course: Diomedes became king in Argos by descent from Adrastus's daughter; Pelops became king of Pisa by marrying Hippodameia (after killing her father); Menelaus became king of Sparta by marriage to Helen. But these examples occur relatively rarely and only in the absence of male heirs, with father-son (or indeed brother-brother) succession being virtually universal in the myths where available.

[Hippocras]

On 8/1/2023 at 4:31 PM, Tradecraft said:

It's all Greek 

Thanks. I think it is an interesting hypothesis regarding the Greeks, but the real world "proof" so much as it might exist, is completely buried by thousands of years of machismo and patriarchical distortion. Any source we can look at for information on those times is distorted by the male-centric lens.

Regarding matrilinearity in Westeros, if you have been following my various threads you will know that I do think there might be a very high degree of matrilineal relevance to the eventual outcomes of the series. GRRM never makes things easy though. He always makes things twist and turn and bloodlines peter out from infertility, or become untraceable to the point where we can't decipher clear descent in most cases.

Basically the strongest hint we have of matrilinearity in pre-Andal times following through to the present day is Lord Blackwood's unusual ( for Westeros) attachment to his daughter. And that is not all that strong a hint because it could simply mean he loves his daughter very much.

The strongest hint we have in the mythology of Westeros meanwhile is the apparent use of Alyssa Arryn to tie back to Dido/Queen Elissa who was meant to inherit from her father but was thwarted by her brother and so fled, eventually becoming the founder of Carthage. The Vale in general and the Arryns in particular are very strongly tied to the Andal takeover of Southern Westeros, and the patriarchy is clearly tied to the Andal faith. The myth of Alyssa is that she did not cry when her brother, husband and children were killed. We have of course no idea how she felt about any of them or why she did not cry but the myth of gods punishing a woman for not behaving as men think a woman should does feel like a patriarchical distortion of events.

As for hints in this direction in GRRM's histories:

- The great council of 101, and which families backed Rhaenys and Corlys's line.

- The Dance, which families were the strongest Black supporters, which families supported her in opposition to their liege lords, plus the symbolism of Rhaenyra's only daughter dying stillborn.

- Marriages within the family, the Targaryens being the strongest example of this, but also the most distracting because we then forget to notice the importance of the cousin marriages happening in other families.

Edited January 25 by Hippocras