Renly deserved better

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly died before he could do much at all. We don't even know that he got the letter before he died. Stannis chose to help when it was basically the only option left for him.

Not true, Tywin was scared Stannis might go to Dorne and try to convince the royal family to join his rebellion. The Dornish do come very close to rebelling in AFFC's, so this was indeed a possibility.

[Alester Florent]

15 minutes ago, sifth said:

They could have sent a letter to Balon after he was crowned as well. It's never said they sent all of the letters at the same time.

What exactly did the letter to Stannis say, and who sent it?

It's likely that the NW send periodic requests to the Iron Throne and northern lords for aid and recruits under normal circumstances.

But the ravens sent requesting urgent assistance were only sent after the Battle at the Fist of the First Men, because until that point even the Watch didn't know what they were up against: they didn't know the full extent of the wildling host that Mance had assembled until Jon got back to Castle Black, and they didn't know the Others had an army of that scope until after the Great Ranging was destroyed. All of this happens after Renly is already dead.

It's entirely plausible that he got a message from the NW saying "hey, can you send us some men please" and ignored it because he had more pressing concerns. I doubt he got a message saying "we need help right now because we're about to be overwhelmed" because the Watch didn't know that was what they were up against until after Renly was already dead.

It's possible that the Watch sent a message to Highgarden or Storm's End anyway, not realising that he was dead (and hence saying "we wrote to all five kings", but Renly can't really be blamed for not answering that.

Heck, do we even know that Robb got one of these letters while he was alive? I don't recall its being mentioned and it's hard to imagine that Robb would completely ignore a letter from his brother who he seems to be intending to name his heir. You'd also expect Robb to be the first of the kings the NW would write to, being the most obviously sympathetic and the one best-positioned to do something to help them (if only by requesting that the Umbers/Mormonts/whoever reinforce the Wall until he can get there). So if he didn't get a letter in time, Renly almost certainly didn't.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Heck, do we even know that Robb got one of these letters while he was alive? I don't recall its being mentioned and it's hard to imagine that Robb would completely ignore a letter from his brother who he seems to be intending to name his heir.

I mean Robb was pretty overwhelmed when those letters were sent. He was crowned king of the Riverlands and North, was waging war on the Lannisters, got married, lost the Freys, found out the North was being invaded by the Iron Born, found out that Winterfell was burnt to the ground and his brothers were dead, lost a third of his army at Duskendale, had to deal with Jamie's escape, had to deal with Karstarks betrayal, needed to scramble to get the Freys back on his side and finally had to come up with a will as to who would succeed him, now that Sansa was married to Tyrion. I think I covered everything. I often wonder if George liked to torture Robb in that third book.

That doesn't leave a lot of room to help the Night's Watch.

Edited September 10, 2023 by sifth

[Alester Florent]

6 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean Robb was pretty overwhelmed when those letters were sent. He was crowned king of the Riverlands and North, was waging war on the Lannisters, got married, lost the Freys, found out the North was being invaded by the Iron Born, found out that Winterfell was burnt to the ground and his brothers were dead, lost a third of his army at Duskendale, how to deal with Jamie's escape, had to deal with Karstarks betrayal, need to scramble to get the Freys back on his side and finally had to come up with a will as to who would succeed him, now that Sansa was married to Tyrion. I think I covered everything.

That doesn't leave a lot of room to help the Night's Watch.

Sure, I woldn't expect Robb to actually be able to help. But I wouldn't expect him to ignore the letter completely. I'd expect to see him cursing his inability to help and saying Jon would have to wait until he had cleared Moat Cailin, and worrying for the safety of his last remaining brother (who, again, he is seemingly planning to name heir!)

Here's the actual quote in question:

 

Quote

 

"It is not," Pycelle admitted, "but none of Mormont's men have returned as yet. Marsh fears the wildlings have killed them, and that the Wall itself may be attacked next." He fumbled in his robe and found the paper. "Here is his letter, my lord, a plea to all five kings. He wants men, as many men as we can send him."

 

"Five kings?" [Tywin] was annoyed. "There is one king in Westeros. Those fools in black might try and remember that if they wish His Grace to heed them. When you reply, tell him that Renly is dead and the others are traitors and pretenders."

 

So by the time that even the Iron Throne received word, the only one of the kings to be completely static throughout this period and therefore the easiest to reach by raven, Renly had been dead some time.

 

And if the letter was addressed to "all five kings" (which is just Pycelle's take), then Renly was already dead by the time it was sent.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Alester Florent

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

 

And if the letter was addressed to "all five kings" (which is just Pycelle's take), then Renly was already dead by the time it was sent.

So the Watch didn't know Renly was killed? Surely they would have known about the Battle of the Blackwater. Dam this timeline is confusing.

[Craving Peaches]

18 minutes ago, sifth said:

Not true, Tywin was scared Stannis might go to Dorne and try to convince the royal family to join his rebellion. The Dornish do come very close to rebelling in AFFC's, so this was indeed a possibility.

Stannis never considers this as an option. Not one of his advisors brings it up. The only other plan aside from going to the Watch that is considered was to plunder Claw Isle.

[sifth]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

Stannis never considers this as an option. Not one of his advisors brings it up. The only other plan aside from going to the Watch that is considered was to plunder Claw Isle.

Just saying, other options did exist.

Edited September 10, 2023 by sifth

[Craving Peaches]

Just now, sifth said:

Just saying, other options did exist.

One other option. I don't think things that Stannis never considers really count as options.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

The guy was a vain usurper. His disregard for succession would have meant war when he died and war when whoever won that war died. He didn't understand the Rebellion, and he didn't understand why his brother was on the throne and he didn't recognize that he had made himself a pawn of Mace Tyrell. His only claim to the throne was the strength of the armies backing him, the ultimate 'might makes right' champion. 

[Ran]

17 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

His disregard for succession would have meant war when he died and war when whoever won that war died.

Maybe? It all depends on who his successor is and the state of the realm at that time. If he rules well and his heir looks like he'll do the same..

18 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

He didn't understand the Rebellion

What was there to understand? The king tried to destroy the Baratheons and Starks, they raised the realm against them, and they won.

18 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

he didn't understand why his brother was on the throne

Because he was the guy who was the head of the rebellion and had the charisma.

19 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

he didn't recognize that he had made himself a pawn of Mace Tyrell

TV show nonsense. Mace couldn't play checkers, much less chess. Mace would fall over himself to keep Renly pleased and supported. Renly would over time increase his ties with everyone else, diminishing the influence of the Tyrells just through the nature of ruling. 

20 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

His only claim to the throne was the strength of the armies backing him, the ultimate 'might makes right' champion. 

Well, the other claim to the throne was that he was the sort of man who could actually convince vast armies to follow him.

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

16 minutes ago, Ran said:

TV show nonsense

I don't think that's fair. If anything the book Mace is less of a cartoon character than the Tellerite HBO portrayed him as. 

 

17 minutes ago, Ran said:

Mace couldn't play checkers, much less chess. Mace would fall over himself to keep Renly pleased and supported. Renly would over time increase his ties with everyone else, diminishing the influence of the Tyrells just through the nature of ruling. 

His checkers game seemed to be good enough for Renley. Wasn't plan A to get Margery married to Robert? That failed so Mace checked down to the tractable brother. What Mace would have done, and what Renley would have done as time went by can only be guessed at. Mace is still standing though and his plan to have his daughter marry the King is still standing as well. Renley, not so much.

 

26 minutes ago, Ran said:

Well, the other claim to the throne was that he was the sort of man who could actually convince vast armies to follow him.

The War of the 5 Kings was not an election and those armies that he gathered to him were all gathered and provided by the Tyrells anyway. What if Loras had a thing with Tyrion instead of Renley?  

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

3 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

His checkers game seemed to be good enough for Renley. Wasn't plan A to get Margery married to Robert? That failed so Mace checked down to the tractable brother. What Mace would have done, and what Renley would have done as time went by can only be guessed at. Mace is still standing though and his plan to have his daughter marry the King is still standing as well.

As I understand it, that was all Olenna's planning, not Mace's.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Takiedevushkikakzvezdy

[Craving Peaches]

11 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

His checkers game seemed to be good enough for Renley. Wasn't plan A to get Margery married to Robert?

I doubt that was Mace's plan since Renly and Loras have to write to Mace to ask him to send Margaery. Why would they be doing this if Mace himself came up with the idea? It wouldn't make much sense.

Quote

The Knight of Flowers writes Highgarden, urging his lord father to send his sister to court. The girl is a maid of fourteen, sweet and beautiful and tractable, and Lord Renly and Ser Loras intend that Robert should bed her, wed her, and make a new queen. 

This does not sound like it is Mace's plan. It sounds like it is Renly and Loras' plan.

11 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

all gathered and provided by the Tyrells anyway.

There were some from the Stormlands as well, at least ~25,000.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Alester Florent]

22 hours ago, Craving Peaches said:

One other option. I don't think things that Stannis never considers really count as options.

Compromise is never an option, then?

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

1 minute ago, Craving Peaches said:

I doubt that was Mace's plan since Renly and Loras have to write to Mace to ask him to send Margaery. Why would they be doing this if Mace himself came up with the idea? It wouldn't make much sense.

I'd have to check that. Not having done so though, could that be a timing thing? I'll take a look this evening.

 

7 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

There were some from the Stormlands as well, at least ~25,000.

Forgot about those. Yeah the Stormlands split pretty evenly didn't they? Thanks. So he's charismatic. I live in Canada and the last 7 years of charisma don't do much to recommend it, lol.

[Craving Peaches]

1 hour ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

His disregard for succession would have meant war when he died and war when whoever won that war died.

The issue with this is that has happened before multiple times in universe and in real life, but what you are saying about it leading to endless civil war rarely happens. Look at this guy here:

Edgar, King of Scotland - Wikipedia

He imprisoned and overthrew family members on the path to becoming king, yet there was 200 years of stable succession after, as Alester Florent said in another thread. Similarly, when Aegon I took over, there was no war after he died, when Aegon II finally beat Rhaenyra, there was no war after he died. If Robert had legitimate children I am willing to bet there wouldn't have been a war when he died.

Renly is also not disregarding succession alltogether, he still has a claim to the throne, he's just not first in line. If he adopts the incest story and excludes Stannis based on religion, he becomes the 'legitimate heir' anyway.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Craving Peaches

[Craving Peaches]

1 minute ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

I'd have to check that. Not having done so though, could that be a timing thing? I'll take a look this evening.

 

Forgot about those. Yeah the Stormlands split pretty evenly didn't they? Thanks. So he's charismatic. I live in Canada and the last 7 years of charisma don't do much to recommend it, lol.

If you mean Mr. T, he looks very suspicious to me. He looks like he's trying too hard to look friendly.

3 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

Compromise is never an option, then?

Not for Stannis, at least until he gets most of his troops killed...

[Alester Florent]

25 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

Forgot about those. Yeah the Stormlands split pretty evenly didn't they?

I believe the Stormlands sided almost universally with Renly, who was after all their liege lord. The only Stormlands house we know sided with Stannis in the first instance was Seaworth (which is sworn to Dragonstone). A few Stormlords later received Davos to hear what he had to say, but we know of none who sided with Stannis while Renly was alive (and given how Davos regrets the difficulty he had in even meeting lords, he would doubtless say if any had). It is possible that some of them stay home and don't answer Renly's call (most notably, the Dondarrions, since Beric is the head of their house) but we don't know of any for certain.

After Renly's death, almost all the Stormlords then go over to Stannis. It's possible that the Penroses and Tarths don't, but we only know about Brienne and Cortnay for certain (neither of whom is the head of their house).

Most of the Stormlords desert Stannis in turn at the sight of Renly's ghost and later swear fealty to Joffrey (with prisoners who don't being executed), but a handful remain with Stannis after the Blackwater.

There are a handful of Stormlanders who fight for Joffrey from the outset, though, most notably Balon Swann. Meryn Trant is a Stormlander too, although of course he's Kingsguard.

 

What we can say with certainty is that Renly faced no active opposition from his own bannermen. Which is even better than Robert managed!

Edited September 11, 2023 by Alester Florent

[Aejohn the Conqueroo]

14 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said:

Renly is also not disregarding succession alltogether, he still has a claim to the throne, he's just not first in line. If he adopts the incest story and excludes Stannis based on religion, he becomes the 'legitimate heir' anyway.

He never made that argument, I don't think he believed it. If his campaign had been based upon the fact that the legitimate heir was a demon worshipper and the Lannister kids were bastards and he was reluctantly stepping into the void that history had created for him then I would have accepted it. It's a good argument. He never said it and it was right there in front of him. What's the conclusion other than he didn't believe it himself? 

[Alester Florent]

2 minutes ago, Aejohn the Conqueroo said:

He never made that argument, I don't think he believed it. If his campaign had been based upon the fact that the legitimate heir was a demon worshipper and the Lannister kids were bastards and he was reluctantly stepping into the void that history had created for him then I would have accepted it. It's a good argument. He never said it and it was right there in front of him. What's the conclusion other than he didn't believe it himself? 

I don't think that's what Renly believed. But it might well have been what he ordered said publicly after his victory to justify his accession, if he'd got that far.

Edited September 11, 2023 by Alester Florent