Your Winds Outline

[Hippocras]

On 10/26/2023 at 5:04 AM, Nevets said:

 

Well you do have 24 chapters listed and there are 20 POVs still alive, so I'm guessing you can't list everyone.  And some of the more minor ones won't get much in any event.

I know that when I try to figure out how many chapters each POV gets, I end up with a total that is more than will fit into one volume (85 or so).  I'm thinking he is going to have to consolidate stories pretty extensively, so POVs are in proximity and can tell each other's stories.  He can kill some off, but the ones that need the most chapters are the main characters (the big 6), and they're not going anywhere.

By the way, how many chapters total are you predicting?  Just curious.  Right now, I can't get below 92 or so.

I don't even dare predict! I am just trying to cover the known unknowns. The further we progress in the book, the less we know about what actual events might take place, which makes it very much like feeling around in the dark.

I tend to agree there needs to be some consolidation. Still, GRRM has a method of covering key events from more than one POV so that he can alternate their chapters and give different elements of the same story. So JonCon is probably important at least until Arianne is fully in place. I would guess no more than 2 chapters for him.

A stab at numbers, just for you. Note that locations might change during the book:

North
Ghost - 1 or 2
Bran - 5+
Theon - up to 5
Asha - 4
Melisandre - 4
Davos - 5+

Central/Vale
Brienne - 5+
Jaime - 5+
Cersei - up to 5
Sansa and aliases - up to 5

South
Hotah - 3
Samwell - 5+
Damphair - 2 or 3

Stormlands
Arianne - 5+
JonCon - 2

Meereen
Barristan - 4
Tyrion - 5+
Victarion - up to 5
Daenerys - 3

Arya and aliases - up to 5


In general I think Jon and Dany's POVs will be very minimal in Winds. Instead, we will see them at a greater distance, as leaders whose thoughts we need to guess at. Anyway, Jon will be dead for much of the book, and Dany is missing.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Hippocras

[sweetsunray]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:36 PM, Hippocras said:

I tend to agree there needs to be some consolidation. Still, GRRM has a method of covering key events from more than one POV so that he can alternate their chapters and give different elements of the same story.

And he can cut chapters for one POV through another POV. For example in aDwD, we have 3 Bran chapters but he appears imo in 2 more chapters via tree in Theon's POV. Add Theon's tWoW excerpt chapter and that already includes Bran. I expect Bran to manifest at least once in one more Theon chapter and in a Mel chapter at the Wall and in a Riverlands plot chapter (probably Jaime's). We will pick up Bran's POV imo after the Battle of Ice and WF, Wall mayhem and Red Wedding 2.0. And it likely kicks off with the need to escape BR's cave and BR's death. So, at best we're getting 3 actual Bran POVs imo. George has admitted he finds writing Bran's POV difficult, because of the magic and him preferring to keep magical rules vague. So, I  expect him to write the absolute minium Bran POVs, while preserving magical manifestations of Bran in other POVs instead of using Bran's POV for it.

Likewise I think we're only getting the one Damphair chapter, though I do believe Damphair will not fully disappear. I believe he will become an Undying One, and we'll meet him as such in Sam's POV, probably passing on a certain necessary tidbit for Sam to either escape Euron or pass on a certain weakness that allows for Sam to halt Euron's progress enough until Dany arrives in Westeros.

Edited October 28, 2023 by sweetsunray

[Hippocras]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

And he can cut chapters for one POV through another POV. For example in aDwD, we have 3 Bran chapters but he appears imo in 2 more chapters via tree in Theon's POV. Add Theon's tWoW excerpt chapter and that already includes Bran. I expect Bran to manifest at least once in one more Theon chapter and in a Mel chapter at the Wall and in a Riverlands plot chapter (probably Jaime's). We will pick up Bran's POV imo after the Battle of Ice and WF, Wall mayhem and Red Wedding 2.0. And it likely kicks off with the need to escape BR's cave and BR's death. So, at best we're getting 3 actual Bran POVs imo. George has admitted he finds writing Bran's POV difficult, because of the magic and him preferring to keep magical rules vague. So, I  expect him to write the absolute minium Bran POVs, while preserving magical manifestations of Bran in other POVs instead of using Bran's POV for it.

Likewise I think we're only getting the one Damphair chapter, though I do believe Damphair will not fully disappear. I believe he will become an Undying One, and we'll meet him as such in Sam's POV, probably passing on a certain necessary tidbit for Sam to either escape Euron or pass on a certain weakness that allows for Sam to halt Euron's progress enough until Dany arrives in Westeros.

While I tend to agree somewhat on Bran, I think Winds is his main book. He is our only window on both key moments in history (which need to start to come to light in the second to last book) and in the far North. GRRM's difficulty writing Bran chapters may be the reason he is so behind on Winds! He needs more Bran chapters than usual.

What you say about magical POVs also applies to Melisandre. Yet with Jon dead, Theon and Asha with Stannis, and Davos not yet returned, Mel and Ghost are our only current POVs at Castle Black until one of these others joins up with her. It is tricky. Maybe GRRM will use Bran's visions to tell us indirectly about Mel and her actions, and Mel's visions to tell us indirectly about Bran. That would be a mind twist.

Disagree on Damphair. Even if we do not have a chapter earlier than the sample, I think there will be another one later. Who else does Euron have to talk to? I don't see Asha crossing paths with Euron any time soon, as long as he is far from the Iron Islands or anyone she cares about. So Damphair is our only window on Euron.

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

He is our only window on both key moments in history (which need to start to come to light in the second to last book) and in the far North.

I very much doubt he's going to write several chapters of Bran being a TV channel into the past for us. Sure, he will be partially, but I expect George to keep this to a minimum. If you're thinking of the ToJ and Lyanna hooking up with Rhaegar, it'll be incorporated on his journey in maximum two separate chapters, or a sequence as the one we saw in his final third chapter of aDwD. As this would be late in his training, as it goes beyond seeing through a WW's eyes, this would likely be his final chapter in aDwD. And just as he didn't have multiple chapters for Arya to go into her training in detail, just show us glimpses of the stage she's in, he won't be doing many for Bran either. George's abandoned 5 year gap furthers this idea that George will keep "training skill" chapters to a minimum. He never much intended to focus on the training of Bran or Arya much at all. He wanted to just jump ahead to them having been trained for 5 years already. Bran's POV becomes way more important in aDoS, as he would be fully skilled and more experienced (having learned from his mistakes) and part of the pack again.

We just need max one or two POVs from Mel at the Wall. Imo Jon's not dead anyway.

I would say that for the North, we get

• Davos (4) - Skagos trouble and getting in touch with Rickon and Osha; Convincing Osha and Rickon to come with him to the mainland; arriving with Rickon and Osha at Eastwatch, which is under control of the man left in charge, a Slynt friend, potentially the arrival of Cersei men, ending in the capture of Davos and Rickon (all before the Pink Letter); much later turns out that rickon and Shaggy were killed and remains were sent to WF by the men at Eastwatch, believing it to be in Bolton hands. he Riverrun men who volunteered to become part of the NW arrive at Eastwatch, together with either wildlings or NW men sent by Jon against the assassin plotters. Davos is freed, he learns of Shireen's fate and is taken to the KitN.
• Theon and Asha (7 or 8 together) - prelude to the Battle of Ice, with Bran and BR in the raven. Theon is taken before the WW tree, and voluntarily allows Bran to skinchange him to divulge secrets on WF inner wall and shortcut gangways that only Bran knows. Battle of Ice. Winterfell and clues to confirm or contradict the Pink Letter as well as more Bran and BR's magical involvement at this point in time via ravens and WW. The arrival of Rickon's remains, Stannis being required to split forces to consolidate Torrhen's Square and any other remaining Bolton forces heading for the Dreadfort. A potential temp split between Theon and Asha, including one of them getting more insight on the northern lords using Stannis, but aiming to preserve nortern independence.
•  Mel (2) - Wall mayhem including Bran trying to warn people by skinchanging Patchface, who bites his tongue off, at the Nightfort with Stannis burning Shireen. Her leaving disillusioned and ending in confrontation with Davos.
• Jon (7-10) - Not dead, and back into action shortly after mayhem. He deals with the mutineers, wights; confrontation with Mel (potentially discovering any duplicity about the PL if there is any), discovers Eastwatch plotting from one of the mutineers and that they have Rickon; Jeyne Poole and Alysanne Mormont arrive with Mormont revealing Robb's will; he sends NW men or wildlings against Eastwatch; banishes Mel and Queen's men from CB; learning of Rickon's fate, after which he's had enough and takes up the responsibility to rule the North;
• Bran (3) - A lot of his arc will occur offpage, as we see his involvement in the Northern arc for the retaking of Winterfell and Riverrun. We rejoin his POV after the wall mayhem when everything has become very grim (seemingly Jon dead, Rickon taken captive or killed already) and it becomes grimmer with Bran learning about Jojen's fate, the Others making a move on the cave and BR dying, and Bran having to flee via the backdoor - a sinkhole. This cannot be accomplished without further sacrifice - Hodor holding the "back" door, while Meera helps Bran to climb out of the sinkhole. Their journey to the Wall with help, but also more sacrifice (Summer and the pack), Bran's feelings of guilt, loss and hopelessness. Without his wolf and not skinchanging people anymore, Bran ends up expanding his skills and manages to see into the past in locations where there are WW trees, such as the ToJ. He seeks to go to CB to inform Jon, who's already at WF.

So between 23 to 27 chapters for the north, not counting potential chapters for Sansa in the North, if she manages to get to WH before the end of tWoW.

The Vale: All Sansa POVs. 2 inolving the tourney: the excerpt + tourney ending in disaster. 2 more covering the aftermath of the disaster and dealing with LF. A 5th at Runefort with Sansa consolidating a military backing from Royce. Her arrival at White Harbor, meeting with Brienne there who arrives from Maidenpool, and learning that Jon is KitN. So 5-6 POVs, maybe a 7th wth her arrival at Winterfell and reunion with Jon there.

Together with those of the North that makes for 28-34 chapters.

Riverlands: Jaime and Brienne until Arya's arrival there. I think we'll have Jaime's POV initially, for RW2.0 and LS intending to execute Jaime at the slender WW of Riverrun, Bran intervenes via WW and forgives Jaime. LS sends Jaime to CR and Brienne north to protect Bran. Brienne's POV picks up in Maidenpool, where she'll have a meeting with someone who has just arrived from Braavos and who later will end up having been Arya. Arya's first POV after leaving Braavos will likely be at the Crossroads. Arya leaves for Westeros at either the end of her 2nd or her 3rd chapter, and either the 2nd or the 3rd includes Nymeria's pack dreams. Via the Crossroads, she ends up with the BwB once more and meets LS, after which she decides to travel to Winterfell. So 6-7 POVS for Arya, 3 at best for Brienne if we include the North, 5-6 for Jaime.

So that makes for 14-16 chapters for these 3 characters, and a total of 42-50 with the previous.

Cersei (5): her trial and aftermath of Kevan's murder, her retaking of power, sending an envoy to the IB and Margaery's trial can be done in 2. Then she learns of Jon Con taking Storm's End, and several castles in the Crownlands starting a blockade (Rosby with Bronn at Stokeworth, her interactions with the Sandsnakes and dealing with the HS. I do believe Cersei is forced to flee with her last surviving child and claimant to CR, where her arc rejoins with that of Jaime, and her seeking an alliance with Euron.

That makes for a total of 47-55 chapters.

Arianne and JonCon: Arianne will get the brunt of the chapters, and JonCon no more than absolutely necessary. It'll take 3 chapters for Arianne to meet Aegon and send the last bird to Doran with the message "dragon". The 3rd is where we learn how SE was taken, and I think that it will be Aurane Waters who escorts her to SE on Sweet Cersei. Lady Lance and Aurane will likely end up bonding. There will be 3 more chapters max imo with Arianne joining Aegon in taking KL and whichever marriage negotiations, but 2 more might be enough. Add 2 more Jon Con chapters, and we'll have 7-8 more chapters involving the Stormlands, King's Landing, etc. 

That makes for a total of 54-63 chapters.

Hotah: no more than 1. (Oakheart is dead already, so no Ser Oak).

Damphair: 1

Samwell: (4-5). Him racking up a chain asap, Citadel politics, Jaquen, glass candles, and the threat of Euron. Oldtown falls and Sam gets taken, meeting Euron and Damphair, who manages to overcome the mind control and come to some lucidity to help Sam escape to Horn Hill and beyond. I think he'll steal a glass candle. Euron sets up camp in Oldtown, in the Hightower.

So that's 60-70 chapters.

Essos: We have 5 POV chapters on the battle for Meereen: Selmy (2), Tyrion (2) and Vic (1). Selmy will get max 3 chapters imo. He'll die from the Pale Mare in Meereen, putting Tyrion into power of Meereen and Dany's army. Vic deals with the Volantene fleet with the help of the dragons (1). Meereen becomes an epidemic hellhole, and Tyrion decides to embark for Volantis in the name of Dany, while sending Jorah in search of Dany (1). Add another for Tyrion's journey there. Dany will need 3 chapters in the Dothraki Sea - one to get to Vaes Dothrak, one with the Dosh Khaleen and a third embarking with the consolidated Dothraki for Volantis after Jorah joins her and informs her on Tyrion's plans. Her 4th will include the battle for Volantis. Tyrion meets Dany. The Three Sisters offer preliminary surrender and with Slaver's Bay and the Dothraki being handled they vow to not buy slaves anymore, like Pentos once did with Braavos. Tyrion informs Dany about Aegon's existence and how Illyrio and Varys support him. (1) Dany finally agrees to hand Pentos to the Tattered Prince. There would be 2-3 more between Dany and Tyrion before Pentos is taken.

Give or take a few that makes for 16-17 chapters, before Dany and Tyrion finally sail from Pentos to King's Landing and/or Dragonstone. So 76 to 87 chapters total. Add the prologue and an epilogue and we're already looking at  78-89 chapters. aDwD had 71 chapters.

 

[Nevets]

I try not to get too specific in my predictions.  It comes out like fanfic and you wind up being wrong a lot.  But here goes.

North:

Davos (4).  Picks up Rickon and winds up as our eyes on Hardhome, which is one big fubar.  Ends up going north.  May make contact with Benjen.  Doubt he gets south of the wall before the end of the book.

Bran (5).  Learns magical stuff from BR.  Discovers info on Others and reason to distrust Children.  Leaves with Meera and Hodor via the underground river.  May communicate through WW but likely with difficulty.

Mel (2).  Covers events at the Wall after attack on Jon.  Jeyne arrives and with Ramsay apparently in pursuit, is sent onward to Eastwatch and presumably Braavos.

Stannis (6 between Asha and Theon). Takes Winterfell with help of Karstarks and playing dead.  Messy fight though.  Due to WF's ruined status, forced to go elsewhere (Cerwyn or White Harbor maybe).

Jon (7).  After awakening from coma, consolidates power and places loyalists in important spots.  Deals with imminent Others threat, Stannis, and possibly Boltons.  Remains LC but is de facto ruler of the North.

Braavos and elsewhere: Arya (7).  After preview, is on thin ice with FM.  Eventually meets Jeyne and decides to return home.  FM allow her to leave after extracting a promise to help if needed, probably their aim all along.  Returns to Westeros with Jeyne in tow. Most likely goes to Riverlands, but White Harbor and Vale are also possible.

Riverlands: (6 from Jaime and Brienne). There may be RW 2.  If so, I am skeptical it will succeed.  Security at Riverrun will be extremely tight.  I think Jaime is being saved for a rescue of Frey prisoners.  If so, he may die in the attempt.  I think he is not long for this world.

Kings Landing, etc.: (Cersei 5, Arianne 4). More politics.  Cersei and Margaery both win trials.  Lots of infighting.

Oldtown: (Samwell 5, Aeron 2). Something is happening in Oldtown.  Likely a fight with Euron.  Possibly some sort of conspiracy at the Citadel as well.

Slavers bay: (Daenerys 7, Tyrion 6, Victarion 2, Barristan 2).  Dany consolidates Dothraki, Tyrion sorts out Meereen.  Both head west, separately.

Areo Hotah 1

Sansa (7) Learns politics in the Vale.  Deals with LF.  Heads North.  Does not marry Harry.

Around 80 chapters.  Less than I thought.

I'm assuming some characters join up.  They can tell each other's stories, similar to AGOT.  Arya, for example had five chapters, but important events were told by Jon, Sansa, and Eddard.

 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Nevets

[Gilbert Green]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:10 AM, Hippocras said:

As I have been trying to explain about Damphair, just because we have a sample chapter does not mean that it is the FIRST chapter in the book from a certain POV. People are welcome to disagree with me that an earlier chapter is necessary, certainly. But I AM entirely aware of the sample chapter and its contents. If you don't like my proposal that the sample is Damphair2 and not Damphair1, and that Damphair1 gives a more complete picture of the state of things on the Iron Islands just before his capture, in a way that will tie into Asha and Theon's story later, then that is perfectly fine. It is not as if my whole outline falls apart if there is no earlier Damphair chapter.

I was merely trying to offer a piece of constructive criticism, not tear apart your whole outline.

Asha and Theon know whatever they know, and will find out whatever they need to know.  Whatever they learn about events on the Iron Islands, we can follow along with their POVs and be just as surprised (or not) as they are.   And it is not as though they are likely to learn anything from Aeron any time soon.  On the other hand, I would not necessarily be shocked if Aeron returns to the Iron Islands before they do.

On 10/24/2023 at 3:10 AM, Hippocras said:

As for Dany I don't get your question. Last we saw her, she was surrounded by her enemy's Khalasar, so a prisoner.

She wasn't surrounded and she wasn't a prisoner.    Not yet, anyway.

On 10/24/2023 at 3:10 AM, Hippocras said:

Drogon may be with Dany, but he has his own moods and his own mind. Part of him IS Drogo, whose sacrifice was essential for the hatching of the dragons. Drogo too would believe that his widow belongs with the Dosh Khaleen.

Drogon's opinion is that horses and riders are both good eating.

Dany becoming a prisoner of the Dothraki again, or Drogon abandoning Dany again, would be the plot going round in circles.  I believe and hope that the plot will not go round in circles, but progress.

Drogon left Dany because she was plotting to chain him up.  They have no such disagreements now.

On 10/24/2023 at 3:10 AM, Hippocras said:

And furthermore Drogon is injured. So Drogon is unlikely to be much help in this particular moment.

Drogon can still fly, breathe fire, and kill and eat a horse.  I'm not saying he's 100% healed, but he seems fine to me.

[Hippocras]

On 10/29/2023 at 5:44 AM, Gilbert Green said:

Dany becoming a prisoner of the Dothraki again, or Drogon abandoning Dany again, would be the plot going round in circles.  I believe and hope that the plot will not go round in circles, but progress.

To go forward, you must go back.

Dany was abandoned by most Dothraki when Drogo died. Those who stayed behind witnessed the birth of the dragons and came to revere her, but their numbers were small, and they were the weakest of the Dothraki. To get ALL of the Dothraki behind her she needs to defeat the Khals. DANY needs to defeat them, not Drogon.

Again, I doubt it will be the same as in the show, but I do think D&D had some idea of what needed to happen when they made Dany's season 6 storyline. She is not going to get the Dothraki behind her and finally willing to cross the ocean without something along those lines, and it has strong basis in the books. According to Dothraki beliefs she was supposed to go to Vaes Dothrak when Drogo died, and so that is where the Dothraki will try to take her. And it is hard to see how her coup could result in a take-over of all of the Dothraki if the coup does not take place in Vaes Dothrak because anywhere else would mean she would need to wander all over the Dothraki sea collecting Khalasars one by one.

[SaffronLady]

32 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

DANY needs to defeat them

Physically?

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, SaffronLady said:

Physically?

I would say that seems unlikely. But the Kos became Khals by defeating others. So she needs to as well, and I don't think just ordering her dragon to burn them would be enough to win the respect of the Dothraki.

[Gilbert Green]

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

To go forward, you must go back.

Yes, but who knows what that means?  She's not, for instance, going to find the House with the Red Door in the Dothraki capital.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Again, I doubt it will be the same as in the show, but I do think D&D had some idea of what needed to happen when they made Dany's season 6 storyline.

I don't pay much attention to the show.  If you think it will happen because it happened on the show, then fair enough.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She is not going to get the Dothraki behind her and finally willing to cross the ocean without something along those lines, and it has strong basis in the books.

I expect she will do something to get some Dothraki behind her.   Maybe even go to the Dothraki capital.  But get taken prisoner?  It does not, at least at first glance, seem to me that that would help much.

2 hours ago, Hippocras said:

And it is hard to see how her coup could result in a take-over of all of the Dothraki if the coup does not take place in Vaes Dothrak because anywhere else would mean she would need to wander all over the Dothraki sea collecting Khalasars one by one.

It seems to me she would have to do that anyway.  It is not as though some psychic Dothraki controlling Queen Bee resides in the Dothraki captial.  And why does she need to control every single Dothraki in the universe anyway?  I would tend to guess that a single raping, murdering Dothraki horde might well be sufficient for plot purposes.

[SeanF]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:10 PM, Hippocras said:

Disagree. The Dothraki do actually have their own kind of moral boundaries. The widows of Khals have special status.

They have reason to hate one another.  

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, Gilbert Green said:

I don't pay much attention to the show.  If you think it will happen because it happened on the show, then fair enough.

I don't think it because of the show. I think it because in her last chapter in Dance, both her and Drogon were in very bad shape. She could not get Drogon to fly her back; he would not follow her commands. She was starving and bleeding and delirious. Drogon was nursing his wounds. Neither of them was in any shape to take on even the smallest of Dothraki bands at that point. So either she gets killed, end of Dany, or she is captured. Drogon will help her out when he is good and ready, but that is not now.

[Gilbert Green]

11 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I don't think it because of the show. I think it because in her last chapter in Dance, both her and Drogon were in very bad shape. She could not get Drogon to fly her back; he would not follow her commands. She was starving and bleeding and delirious. Drogon was nursing his wounds. Neither of them was in any shape to take on even the smallest of Dothraki bands at that point. So either she gets killed, end of Dany, or she is captured. Drogon will help her out when he is good and ready, but that is not now.

I don't agree that they were in very bad shape.  Less-than-perfect shape, maybe.

And if Drogon senses no particular hostility between the Donthraki and Dany, he may let them hang out together without intervening; only to intervene later when things get hostile.  That's plausible enough, and it could in the end amount to the same thing.

[Gilbert Green]

12 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She could not get Drogon to fly her back; he would not follow her commands.

Drogon and Dany were of one mind.  He came when she called.  She wanted him to chase the Dothraki.  I don't know who was following whose commands.  But they were acting as one.

12 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She was starving and bleeding and delirious. Drogon was nursing his wounds.

Drogon was eating a horse.  And so was she.  She was one with her dragon.

I just reread the final paragraph of the chapter, and I don't much agree with you.  Perhaps a dragon-bond is akin to madness or "delirium".  But if Dany and Drogon were afraid of that Dothraki horde, they should have flown in the other direction. 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[sweetsunray]

14 hours ago, Hippocras said:

She could not get Drogon to fly her back; he would not follow her commands. She was starving and bleeding and delirious. Drogon was nursing his wounds. Neither of them was in any shape to take on even the smallest of Dothraki bands at that point.

Actually the chapter ended with Drogon and Dany hunting down a Dothrak scout and torching him and his horse.

[Hippocras]

I don't see the point of getting into a lengthy debate about this. Dany was in very bad shape, horsemeat or not. You want to see her as a badass at all times, so impossible to image her being captured, that is fine. I personally think it would be a boring story for her to just roast Khal Jhaqo without any kind of story but whatever. Only GRRM knows.

It is text based fact that Drogon would not fly her back to Meereen. They were not "acting as one". That is the whole reason that Dany wandered off on her own in the first place.

[sweetsunray]

4 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is text based fact that Drogon would not fly her back to Meereen. They were not "acting as one". That is the whole reason that Dany wandered off on her own in the first place.

True that Drogon did not want her to fly back to Meereen. But I don't see how that leads to her capture. It just implies Drogon does not want her to care for Meereen and her peace.

The last paragraph is not so much about her eating meat, but hunting man and horse in unison with Drogon. The chapter ends with Dany and Drogon being a united predator, predating on the horselords.

Her last chapter shows the process of Dany initially wanting to get back to Meereen, to take on her responsibilities, but being thwarted and her accepting that she is a dragon, fire and blood instead of peace. Once she does that, she gets a Dothraki on a platter to bbq together wth Drogon. She will go to the Dosh Khaleen, but quite doubtful as a weak pirsoner.

 

[Gilbert Green]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I don't see the point of getting into a lengthy debate about this. Dany was in very bad shape, horsemeat or not. You want to see her as a badass at all times, so impossible to image her being captured, that is fine. I personally think it would be a boring story for her to just roast Khal Jhaqo without any kind of story but whatever. Only GRRM knows.

Debating the books is what we do here, and I don't see the point in telling me not to.  I just don't see Dany as in "very bad shape".  Unless bonding with a monster like Drogon is inherently a terrible bad thing, which it may well be.  But be that as it may, she does not come to them as a starving beggar.   Hungry she may be, but she sweeps down on them from the sky, scattering them in terror, and takes one of their horses without so much as a "by your leave".

When did I ever hint she would just roast Khal Jhogo without any story whatsoever?  Obviously she's going to get a bunch of Dothraki screamers behind her, and return to Meereen, and eventually bring them to Westeros.   I did not even rule out her going to Vaes Dothrak to pick up one or two more Dothraki hordes.  

I just don't think she has just been taken prisoner.

And no, I don't want to see her as badass at all times.  But yes, she is being a badass (for better or for worse) in those final paragraphs.  That's just an honest reading of the text.

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

It is text based fact that Drogon would not fly her back to Meereen. They were not "acting as one". That is the whole reason that Dany wandered off on her own in the first place.

They were indeed acting as one in the final paragraphs.

To which you retort "they were not acting as one before that".   Okay.  Fair enough.  But I think the story progresses in those final paragraphs.

The dragon bond goes both ways.   In some ways Drogon is calling the shots as much as she is.  No, Drogon did not want to bring her back to Meereen to marry Mr. H, and try to be a good ruler who plants trees.  But he'll bring her back as a fiery conqueror, ahead of a raping murdering horde of Dothraki screamers.  And on to Westeros.  Yes, he will.  Drogon is fine with that agenda.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Gilbert Green

[Hippocras]

57 minutes ago, Gilbert Green said:

Debating the books is what we do here, and I don't see the point in telling me not to. 

Debating books yes. Debating how you see the text versus how I see it, with no actual book to settle the issue is what is pointless.

 

The question that started the thread was about how people think GRRM will manage the things we know are coming in Winds.

 

I disagree on Dany, but that disagreement is quite irrelevant to the queation that was asked, since that does not get included in tge set of things we KNOW happen in Winds

Edited November 1, 2023 by Hippocras

[Gilbert Green]

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Debating books yes. Debating how you see the text versus how I see it, with no actual book to settle the issue is what is pointless.

Dany's last chapter in WINDs is actual text.  And we were discussing it.  Because it rather relates to the question of whether she is about to be taken prisoner.

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

The question that started the thread was about how people think GRRM will manage the things we know are coming in Winds.

Okay.  And the issue we were discussing is whether of not Dany becoming a Dothraki prisoner is one of the things we KNOW will happen in WINDs.  Dany's imprisonment is part of your outline.  And I don't even see it as particularly likely, much less certain.  So I was discussing it with you.

8 hours ago, Hippocras said:

I disagree on Dany, but that disagreement is quite irrelevant to the queation that was asked, since that does not get included in tge set of things we KNOW happen in Winds

I am happy to agree to disagree if you are bored of the conversation.  But must you pout? 

Edited November 1, 2023 by Gilbert Green