Nymor letter theories

[KingAerys_II]

10 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

He didn't fall from dragonback, and Sunfyre survived. There are only two instances I can think of where a character survived an immediately fatal attack on their dragon: Baela and Jacaerys. Jace survived (briefly) because his dragon was flying very low (and over water) at the time. Baela's dragon was still alive when it reached the ground. 

Meraxes was shot down at a height from which any fall would be expected to kill the rider and crash-landed with enough force to demolish a castle wall. No known dragonrider has survived anything like that. People can survive all sorts of crazy stuff, but it is far, far more likely that Rhaenys died in the fall. And other than conspiracy theories around the letter content do we actually have anything to suggest she didn't?

Aegon survived to the clash among Vaghar, Meleys and Sunfyre, don't you think it's something more violent than a dragon crashing in a castle? Then it is stated Meraxes died in a mortal agony, there is the possibility Rhaenys survived, crippled or injured

Edited November 4, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[Alester Florent]

1 hour ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon survived to the clash among Vaghar, Meleys and Sunfyre, don't you think it's something more violent than a dragon crashing in a castle? Then it is stated Meraxes died in a mortal agony, there is the possibility Rhaenys survived, crippled or injured

We have, I think, no instances of a rider's dying where their dragon survived. Where dragons fight, the dragons themselves presumably take the majority of the punishment.

If the dragons enter claw-range combat in the sky, then, like birds fighting IRL, they probably won't remain airborne, but they are still active enough in generating lift that the impact won't be fatal to them. More dangerous after impact is the dragons' mauling each other, in which a rider might have a chance to get away (Aegon II, Baela) or not (Addam Velaryon, possibly Rhaenys-QTNW).

That is a different matter from where the dragon is killed in the air, or the rider falls from the dragon while it's airborne, at which point both it and the rider fall without any mitigation of the falling velocity, resulting in a much harder impact more likely to be instantly fatal. If Meraxes demolished half a castle in her landing, then that gives some impression of the force of impact that Rhaenys would have to survive: even if thrown clear she's travelling at significant speed.

As I say, it is not impossible that Rhaenys survived. But by far the most likely outcome is that she died in the crash, and the next-most likely-outcome is that she survived the initial crash mortally wounded and died very shortly thereafter.

[KingAerys_II]

If the author needed her alive to give Dorne a plot armor, you can be sure she survived. 

However during the battle of Rook Rest, Vhagar ripped the body of Meleys apart with her weight, Sunfyre was wounded, the Queen that never was corpse was burned, Aegon conditions were dramatic, he had broken bones and he had part of his armor fused to one of his arms. 

The king was so wounded and in pain he begged to be killed. Of course if Rhaenys survived with the same conditions, further harm would have killed her, however the personality traits of the Ullers are very contradictory, I mean people say "half of the Ullers are made the other is worse", Ellaria doesn't seem a maniac, the Nymeria gave trust to them and married one of them when Mors died 

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

If the author needed her alive to give Dorne a plot armor, you can be sure she survived.

Sure, but is this not getting a bit circular?

What's in the letter? News that Rhaenys survived? She survived? Sure, it's in the letter.

If it is most likely that she died in the crash, then the most likely explanation of what's in the letter can't be that she's alive.

[KingAerys_II]

I already gave the explanation she was shipped to Dragonstone, of course the author knows the real truth, I think Arianne povs are going to reveal something 

[Alester Florent]

9 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

I already gave the explanation she was shipped to Dragonstone

But this makes no sense. How would Dorne smuggle a critically ill prisoner to the most heavily fortified and well-defended naval fortress on the eastern coast, the de facto centre of Targaryen power, right under the nose of both the Targs' dragons and the Velaryon fleet, without anyone becoming aware of it until Deria hands Aegon a letter in the throne room? That stretches disbelief far more than almost any of the other explanations, including the "magic letter" theory.

Quote

of course the author knows the real truth

My concern is that he doesn't and the letter was a bad plot device to extricate himself from a hole he'd written himself into, with the reason he's left it mysterious being that he himself can't think of anything good enough to resolve it.

The whole First Dornish War, starting with Rhaenys and Meria shouting their house words at each other, through to letter ex machina, is probably the weakest stretch of writing in the whole of the official ASoIaF literature.

As I say above, I think we kind of have to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as speculation goes... but in my heart of hearts I do think it was just an authorial cock-up.

[KingAerys_II]

9 minutes ago, Alester Florent said:

But this makes no sense. How would Dorne smuggle a critically ill prisoner to the most heavily fortified and well-defended naval fortress on the eastern coast, the de facto centre of Targaryen power, right under the nose of both the Targs' dragons and the Velaryon fleet, without anyone becoming aware of it until Deria hands Aegon a letter in the throne room? That stretches disbelief far more than almost any of the other explanations, including the "magic letter" theory.

My concern is that he doesn't and the letter was a bad plot device to extricate himself from a hole he'd written himself into, with the reason he's left it mysterious being that he himself can't think of anything good enough to resolve it.

The whole First Dornish War, starting with Rhaenys and Meria shouting their house words at each other, through to letter ex machina, is probably the weakest stretch of writing in the whole of the official ASoIaF literature.

As I say above, I think we kind of have to give him the benefit of the doubt as far as speculation goes... but in my heart of hearts I do think it was just an authorial cock-up.

Lots of people believe she was shipped to Dragonstone and Aegon allowed the ship to land on Dragonstone, of course the people involved should have kept the secret. 

The fact is that after signing the peace, Aegon policy was similar to Rhaenys one and he honored her by builtin the Sept of Remembrance on Rhaenys Hill. 

Some think the Queen had a parallel story love with Nymor and was shipped to Dragonstone when her health conditions worsened because of the injuries due to the fall. 

There is speculation that Aegon, Aenys and Deria made a feast to celebrate the birth of Rhaena

[Alester Florent]

5 minutes ago, KingAerys_II said:

Lots of people believe she was shipped to Dragonstone and Aegon allowed the ship to land on Dragonstone, of course the people involved should have kept the secret.

Who does?

[KingAerys_II]

People on reddit, Tumblr, there is a similar theory to the one I elaborated, it's the one in "Deep Geek"

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

Aegon II survived the Battle of Rook Rest

I said generally. And what was that saying again, "the exception is the proof of the rule"?

6 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

The theory that  is  pure "torture porn" is actually one of the canonic theories made by the Maesters of the Citadel, my personal theory is based on that but it's not so terrible and don't consider Martells as monsters who kept tormenting the captive Queen

Then it just goes to show you're not the only one into torture porn.

[KingAerys_II]

Aegon hesitated before rejecting the peace treaty offered by Dorne, he rejected the peace treaty when a Maester reminded him of the atrocities the Stormlands and Reach suffered because of the Martells and of the sacrifice of his wife. The king had the full support of the Stormlands and Reach united by a desire of revenge against Dorne.
The letter affected the king personally, because he changed personality, there were the years of dragon peace after signing the treaty.
Aegon always retaliated with brutality when dornishmen did heinous acts, he melted the Red Mountains when the widow lover and he burned every stronghold when his wife "died" turning the sand around Hellholt into sand.
Aegon grew desperate after Aenys regression.
After reading the letter he changed personality, it's like he followed the advice of someone who convinced him to make peace unlike the Maester advice that pretended him to keep the devastation.
Rhaenys was the "pacific" sister among the siblings, Aegon lost one his most precious advisors, the "other" sister wife that had Visenya opposite personality, and Visenya said to the dornishmen :"No peace without submission".
Then Aegon built a Sept of Remembrance in honor of Rhaenys, Aenys gave the name Rhana to his daughter to honor his mother, so Rhaenys died after Aegon signed the peace, Aegon and Aenys did actions to honor a beloved person who died

[KingAerys_II]

Of course there is the theory that dornishmen actually nursed the Queen.
This doesn't explain how assassins hired by the Iron Throne were able to murder 4 consecutive lords of Hellholt.
Hellolt is located in the southernmost part of Dorne, it means the assassins should have crossed hostile lands to come in a place where the only source of food and water is the Brimstone, that is a toxic river, some soldiers ate fish of the Brimstone and some water too, they died.

Edited November 5, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

Another curious thing about the first dornish war is the captivity of lord Caron and his family. 

Lord Fowler was able to lead an assault to Nightsong and take the Caron as hostages. 

However it is stated that a woman was the head of house Caron, she is one of the nobles that defeated the Vulture King army. 

In the Stormlands there is no law of primogeniture, so if Lady Caron had male siblings, it's likely they died during captivity

[KingAerys_II]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:50 AM, SaffronLady said:

I said generally. And what was that saying again, "the exception is the proof of the rule"?

Then it just goes to show you're not the only one into torture porn.

"Then it just goes to show you're not the only one into torture porn". 

The author wrote about that theory, the lady Oakheart wedding, then he invented characters as Qyburn, Ramsay, Roose Bolton. I don't think it's "torture p*rn", it's Asoiaf not a Disney fairy tale

[SaffronLady]

6 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

The author wrote about that theory, the lady Oakheart wedding, then he invented characters as Qyburn, Ramsay, Roose Bolton. I don't think it's "torture p*rn", it's Asoiaf not a Disney fairy tale

You don't think this, you don't think that, Aegon 2 was strapped to Sunfyre and did not crash. If Rhaenys fell off Meraxes before crashing to the ground instead of falling to the ground on Meraxes, then she's dead, and any idea she could survive that fall to then be tortured is well, torture porn.

And please, the wedding that got attacked by Wyl does also count as torture porn. Look at House Wyl, they are still alive and well. No punishment, no executions, nothing.

But you know, whatever floats your boat. You believe there is a contrived one-to-one match between certain details in the story and the theory you subscribe to, refuse to consider you may have went on wrong courses of thought based on the original text, abstained from the use of Occam's Razor, clearly have fixed on a single conclusion, and you're simply posting to ask us to agree with you. Too bad I'm not in the mood.

[KingAerys_II]

ABOUT RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC

That's the TWOIAF references about RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC:

During the First Turtle War, the Rhoynar emerged victorious over the Valyrians when their water wizards called up THE POWER OF THE RIVER RHOYNE and proceeded to flood Volon Therys. If the tales can be believed, half the city was washed away.

In the Second Spice War, the Rhoynish Prince Garin raised an army a quarter of a million strong to fight the Volantenes and VALYRIANS.SO LONG AS THE ARMY REMAINED BESIDE MOTHER RHOYNE, THE PRINCE DECLARED, THEY NEED NOT FEAR THE DRAGONS OF VALYRIA,their own water wizards would protect them from their fires. In the battle at Volon Therys, the water wizards raised enormous waterspouts against the Valyrians' three dragons, and THE RHOYNE FLOODED THE ENTIRE CITY.

"The captive prince called down a curse, and that night THE RHOYNE FLOODED OUT OF SEASONthe , with greater force than known in living memory"

Princess Nymeria has been called a "witch queen", though it is not true that she practiced water magic herself. But when she brought her people to Dorne, it is said that the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made DRY STREAMS  flow again and deserts bloom.
 

So the Rhoynar army was able to manipulate the water of Mother Rhoyne, a river deity, how did Deria threaten Aegon? She threatened to make dry streams flow again in Dragonstone? If the Martells had such power, why do they need the letter as a plot device to force Aegon into a peace agreement? There are no accounts of water wizards using water magic to protect Dorne from the devastation during the dragon wroth.
Dorne was a blasting, burning ruin at the end of the war, so if there were water wizards, they did a miserable job.

The threat to turn Dragonstone into a water park for dragons has no sense. Rhoynar water magic requires water from the rivers

[Alester Florent]

I think you're mostly talking to yourself at this point, dude. 

[KingAerys_II]

On 11/7/2023 at 2:56 PM, Alester Florent said:

I think you're mostly talking to yourself at this point, dude. 

Maybe... 

Edited November 11, 2023 by KingAerys_II

[KingAerys_II]

On 11/3/2023 at 8:11 PM, Mourning Star said:

I still like the idea that, 3 years after giving birth to Aenys, Rhaenys was pregnant again when she fell at Hellholt.

The descriptions of her torture were in fact the sounds of her childbirth, which killed her.

This also might help explain why, in the dragon's wroth, Sunspear was not targeted, and the life of the child may have been part of the letter to Aegon and a reason for peace.

This child may have become the Vulture King, and House Blackmont's sigil is a vulture carrying a baby.

The Vulture King is associated to House Blackmont, Benedict Blackmont was one of the petty kings Nymeria defeated to be princess of Dorne. 

Why is the son of Aegon and Rhaenys associated to House Blackmont? Why should Aenys brother lead an army against his family? 

[SaffronLady]

7 hours ago, KingAerys_II said:

ABOUT RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC

That's the TWOIAF references about RHOYNAR WATER MAGIC:

During the First Turtle War, the Rhoynar emerged victorious over the Valyrians when their water wizards called up THE POWER OF THE RIVER RHOYNE and proceeded to flood Volon Therys. If the tales can be believed, half the city was washed away.

In the Second Spice War, the Rhoynish Prince Garin raised an army a quarter of a million strong to fight the Volantenes and VALYRIANS.SO LONG AS THE ARMY REMAINED BESIDE MOTHER RHOYNE, THE PRINCE DECLARED, THEY NEED NOT FEAR THE DRAGONS OF VALYRIA,their own water wizards would protect them from their fires. In the battle at Volon Therys, the water wizards raised enormous waterspouts against the Valyrians' three dragons, and THE RHOYNE FLOODED THE ENTIRE CITY.

"The captive prince called down a curse, and that night THE RHOYNE FLOODED OUT OF SEASONthe , with greater force than known in living memory"

Princess Nymeria has been called a "witch queen", though it is not true that she practiced water magic herself. But when she brought her people to Dorne, it is said that the Rhoynish water witches knew secret spells that made DRY STREAMS  flow again and deserts bloom.
 

So the Rhoynar army was able to manipulate the water of Mother Rhoyne, a river deity, how did Deria threaten Aegon? She threatened to make dry streams flow again in Dragonstone? If the Martells had such power, why do they need the letter as a plot device to force Aegon into a peace agreement? There are no accounts of water wizards using water magic to protect Dorne from the devastation during the dragon wroth.
Dorne was a blasting, burning ruin at the end of the war, so if there were water wizards, they did a miserable job.

The threat to turn Dragonstone into a water park for dragons has no sense. Rhoynar water magic requires water from the rivers

Like, I know I've said this before, but you are the only person talking about attacking Dragonstone with water magic.

Which is due to your obsession with detail, and this is generally a good thing when reading GRRM. But the theory you formed around the details ... doesn't work. People who fall off from high places suffer damage to their health you clearly fail to comprehend. The Ullers would kill Rhaenys if they so much as whip her, and there would be no time for House Martell generational drama.

Since you continue to pretend you know what my theory is despite I haven't presented it, here, now I am presenting it:

During the Dragon's Wroth, Prince Nymor went through old Rhoynar records and rediscovered water magic. However, he learned that the price for water magic is blood, like how the death of the Festival City powered Garin's dying curse, and with so many Dornishmen dead it could be done. So he sent Deria to tell Aegon that basically, you killed so many of my people I could water-nuke you out of the sky if your overgrown fire-breathing flying lizards come to Dorne again. Aegon takes heed of the warning and heads off to check the Dragonstone hatcheries, trying to assess how much time would it be before House Targaryen could hatch enough dragons to ignore the threat. Seeing it won't be in his lifetime, he signs the peace deal.

Here, you can feel free to poke holes in my fanfic now.