Lineages of Lys

[Hippocras]

There are a handful of colourful and royal characters that are connected to Lys. I came across an old thread recently that was speculating that Serenei of Lys might have been a Rogare (Aegon VI's cousin). But I have also occasionally wondered about what connections might exist between all of these other characters we have been teased with but given few details about. Such as:

Saera Targaryen and her Lyseni bastards, born 85-96ish, presented claims at great council of 101. Were any of them Larra's half-siblings? Mother? Lysandro had 16 bastards and unknown wife/wives.
Johanna Swann, taken age 15 to Lys somewhere between 96 and 109, a city she later "ruled in all but name".
Larra Rogare, born in 115. Mother of Aegon IV, daughter of the "First Magister" of Lys, at roughly the same time it seems, as Johanna Swann was "ruling".  What was their relationship?
Lotho Rogare, Larra's brother, helped Samantha Tarly found the Bank of Oldtown.
Lysara, Larra's sister, who we can speculate might be an ancestor of Lysara Karstark.
Serenei of Lys, age unclear but likely born between 130 and 170. Could be a Rogare.

[SaffronLady]

22 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Serenei of Lys, age unclear but likely born between 130 and 170. Could be a Rogare.

Well, the Rogares in Aegon the Unworthy's reign would certainly qualify for "ancient but impoverished Valyrian House". Still, given prior Hightower history with the Targs, why would Jon Hightower, Hand of the King, bring a woman with probable dragonlord connexions to fuck Aegon IV? That would breed maternal-line dragonblood back into House Targaryen. I would imagine the Hightowers be very much against anything but polluting the Targaryen bloodline with their Arbor Gold.

26 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

Lysara, Larra's sister, who we can speculate might be an ancestor of Lysara Karstark.

The notion Targ blood may be injected into House Stark prior to the Usurper's generation is sure interesting.

On top of all that though, these Lysene characters may hold the secret to how they killed the post-Doom dragonlords who were chilling in Lys.

[Hippocras]

2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Well, the Rogares in Aegon the Unworthy's reign would certainly qualify for "ancient but impoverished Valyrian House". Still, given prior Hightower history with the Targs, why would Jon Hightower, Hand of the King, bring a woman with probable dragonlord connexions to fuck Aegon IV? That would breed maternal-line dragonblood back into House Targaryen. I would imagine the Hightowers be very much against anything but polluting the Targaryen bloodline with their Arbor Gold.

The notion Targ blood may be injected into House Stark prior to the Usurper's generation is sure interesting.

On top of all that though, these Lysene characters may hold the secret to how they killed the post-Doom dragonlords who were chilling in Lys.

The Hightowers of Serenei's generation probably had a different philosophy, and Samantha Tarly was a powerhouse in their family. Rhaena Targaryen by then would also have had considerable influence on the Hightowers. I don't know if Jon was descended from Samantha and Lyonel, or Rhaena, or all of the above. Samantha brought Lotho Rogare to Oldtown to found the bank, and he too may have ended up with family links to the Hightowers. So I don't think the description you provided would have been accurate in this later generation.

[Willam Stark]

34 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I came across an old thread recently that was speculating that Serenei of Lys might have been a Rogare (Aegon VI's cousin).

Can you put the link to this thread here?

I do think she was a Rogare and a cousin of Aegon IV.

[Hippocras]

 

 

[SaffronLady]

9 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

So I don't think the description you provided would have been accurate in this later generation.

Hmmm. Post-Dance restructuring of HT philosophy was something I missed. It should be something Ran is working on with GRRM for in F&B2.

[Frey family reunion]

30 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Well, the Rogares in Aegon the Unworthy's reign would certainly qualify for "ancient but impoverished Valyrian House". Still, given prior Hightower history with the Targs, why would Jon Hightower, Hand of the King, bring a woman with probable dragonlord connexions to fuck Aegon IV? That would breed maternal-line dragonblood back into House Targaryen. I would imagine the Hightowers be very much against anything but polluting the Targaryen bloodline with their Arbor Gold.

I'm unclear how anyone of the Rogare bloodline other than Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys or (their) offspring would have dragonblood?

If anything, if they shared the bloodlines of Larra Rogare wouldn't that be evidence that the Hightowers wouldn't have to worry about their offspring hatching a dragon?

[Hippocras]

This scenario would interest me:

Saera had a daughter with a powerful Lyseni, born 85-95 AC. Lys appears to maybe not have had the same aversion to bastardy (given their general proclivities) as Westeros. So that child was acknowledged by and raised by her father, in hope of gaining influence with King Jaehaerys should he eventually thaw to Saera. She was married to Lysandro Rogare in around 101 perhaps to bolster the claim of her brother at the great council by providing a built-in alliance with a powerful family of Lys. Saera was therefore Larra's grandmother in this scenario.

or,

Saera was simply the mother of one or more of Lysandro's 16 bastards, half-siblings of Larra's, and one of them was a claimant at the great council.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Hippocras

[Hippocras]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm unclear how anyone of the Rogare bloodline other than Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys or (their) offspring would have dragonblood?

If anything, if they shared the bloodlines of Larra Rogare wouldn't that be evidence that the Hightowers wouldn't have to worry about their offspring hatching a dragon?

Possibly via Saera.

And I remain very uncertain why people are convinced the Hightowers are anti-dragon. Maesters maybe. Hightowers were the ones who had Morning, because they had Rhaena.

Edited November 20, 2023 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

11 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

I'm unclear how anyone of the Rogare bloodline other than Aegon IV, Aemon, Naerys or (their) offspring would have dragonblood?

If anything, if they shared the bloodlines of Larra Rogare wouldn't that be evidence that the Hightowers wouldn't have to worry about their offspring hatching a dragon?

Because asides from Saera, the entire island of Lys was a fuck house for dragonlords for centuries.

Edited November 20, 2023 by SaffronLady
So anyone who looks like a dragonlord on Lys, probably does have dragonlord blood

[Frey family reunion]

4 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Because asides from Saera, the entire island of Lys was a fuck house for dragonlords for centuries.

Then does it really matter if she was a Rogare? 

[Hippocras]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then does it really matter if she was a Rogare? 

The point being Rogares are a product of that environment, therefore carry dragonlord blood.

[SaffronLady]

14 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

Then does it really matter if she was a Rogare? 

In terms of injecting female-line dragonlord blood? No. 

In other issues? Probably.

[Frey family reunion]

11 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

The point being Rogares are a product of that environment, therefore carry dragonlord blood.

But her response is that the Hightowers would specifically not have chosen someone from the Rogare bloodline because of their dragonlord connections.  But if everyone in Lys has such connections, then why would Jon Hightower choose anyone from Lys?

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

In terms of injecting female-line dragonlord blood? No. 

In other issues? Probably.

Ok, that makes more sense.

[SaffronLady]

8 minutes ago, Frey family reunion said:

But her response is 

Chuckles

Just to clarify, my forum handle is SaffronLady because when I was thinking of a suitable handle, I decided to roll with the concept of "a ship going through the Saffron Straits". As of now my self-identification remains a man and not a dromond, nor an Apache attack helicopter, nor a woman.

[Frey family reunion]

2 minutes ago, SaffronLady said:

Chuckles

Just to clarify, my forum handle is SaffronLady because when I was thinking of a suitable handle, I decided to roll with the concept of "a ship going through the Saffron Straits". As of now my self-identification remains a man and not a dromond, nor an Apache attack helicopter, nor a woman.

Sorry, no offense intended.

[SaffronLady]

1 minute ago, Frey family reunion said:

Sorry, no offense intended.

None taken.

Given the possibility of a new post-Dance Hightower philosophy though, Jon HT may have wanted to bring back the last dregs of an old ally from a hostile environment due to the Rogares' connexion with the Oldtown Bank, which may explain why he selected the last Rogare as Aegon IV's last mistress - if Serenei is a Rogare.

Given how morbid Aegon IV was like in his last years, I'm not really sure Serenei would thank his efforts. Or maybe she does know magic and needed king's seed a la Melissandre, so it was a deal between JHT and Serenei.

[Hippocras]

I am actually thinking the timing is probably off for Saera to be a direct line relative of Larra Rogare. It is hard to see how her bastard would be old enough or legit enough in just one generation to be Larra's mother or father. Possible, just unlikely.

Johanna Swann could maybe be Larra's mother though. Lysandro was First Magister of Lys, practically a king, while Johanna "ruled Lys in all but name". Johanna was a courtesan and rivalry over her launched the Daughters' War, but we don't know what she did after that. She may well have been powerful enough by then to retire from being a courtesan and to marry well. Becoming a madam of a pillow house fits in with what we know of House Rogare. The war began well after Larra's birth, but maybe this was a legitimization after the fact kind of arrangement.

Saera's descendants may have mixed with the Rogares later, producing Serenei, but probably not in time to be part of Larra's parentage.

Edited November 21, 2023 by Hippocras

[SaffronLady]

51 minutes ago, Hippocras said:

I am actually thinking the timing is probably off for Saera to be a direct line relative of Larra Rogare. It is hard to see how her bastard would be old enough or legit enough in just one generation to be Larra's mother or father. Possible, just unlikely.

Speaking of unlikely situations, a princess of a royal house still in power, becoming not only a courtesan, but also one who produced bastards ... even if Aemon was probably dead, given these bastards could come to present their claim in 101 AC they should be born in Baelon's Handship. Baelon "I smacked Balerion and rides Vhagar" Targaryen is surprisingly lenient towards the random folks who dared impregnate his sister out of wedlock.