Jump to content

Question about Harry the Heir


Recommended Posts

Littlefinger and Sansa explain how Harrolyd Hardyng is Robert Arryn’s heir in AFFC Alayne II, but I’ve always found Littlefinger’s interest in Harry the Heir to be a little disproportionate to him being heir to the Vale. Also something about the tapestries of Robert’s that Cersei sent to Littlefinger and the fact that they were mentioned twice (AFFC, Cersei III & Alayne I) seems to indicate something is in the tapestries that Littlefinger wants in his possession. 

For awhile I was thinking maybe Harry was a Targaryen descendent through the Targaryen-Arryn marriages back in the day. The tie-in to the tapestries would be Robert removed all Targaryen decor, so maybe he pulled down an extensive family tree, showing all the distant Targaryen relatives…? But, it seems pretty clear the Arryn-Targaryen matches were not overly fruitful, so yeah, likely no secret/forgotten Targs in the Vale. 

Today, I was reading about the lack of extended family for the Starks, and also Robb’s will, and how Robb did not want to leave Winterfell to some rando from the Vale, and a train of thought occurred to me. 

  • Jocelyn Stark married Benedict Royce and they had three daughters, one married a Waynwood, one a Corbray, and one a Templeton (maybe). Catelyn mentioned them in that order, so presumably the Waynwood marriage involved the oldest daughter. The daughters and their husbands are unnamed.
  • Harry the Heir is heir to the Vale by virtue of his descendancy from Alys Arryn, Jon Arryn’s sister, who married Elys Waynwood.
  • Elys Waynwood is Anya Waynwood’s uncle, but she rules as Lady of Ironoaks instead of someone from Elys’s line, so her father was the oldest sibling. Lady Anya’s parents are unnamed, as are her father and uncle Elys’s parents. 
  • Tapestries could still be family tree related, not necessarily Targaryen family tree.

So, my question about Harry the Heir is this:

Is Harry descended from Jocelyn Stark’s daughter and the daughter’s Waynwood husband, via their (grand)son Elys Waynwood?

Or, in other words:

Is Harry the Heir the heir to both the Eyrie AND Winterfell, and is Littlefinger is going to solidify his claim on the North by marrying Sansa to Harry (a la Downton Abbey)? 

Other related questions:

  • Is Sansa currently second in line to Riverrun, until Edmure’s baby is born?
  • Will Littlefinger leave Robert Arryn alive and under his control? (I feel like controlling 3 of the 7 kingdoms through his grandchildren is the ultimate FU to Hoster Tully)

Please note I’ve done zero timeline comparisons to see if this is even possible, just checked family trees to confirm no names. Like I said, Littlefinger’s interest in both Harry and some random tapestries from King’s Landing has always seemed a little much for me, the Vale seems a little too small potatoes. This is the first “ooooh” thought I’ve had about the series in a long time, hopefully it’s not a complete dud.

Edited by Eden-Mackenzie
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Eden-Mackenzie I have always interpreted Harry as more of a clue about the kinds of investigations we should be doing elsewhere, rather than as someone who is in any way key himself. With Harry’s lineage story Littlefinger inadvertently told Sansa how he thinks and what he is up to in the Kingdoms in general, not specifically with Harry. But I think Littlefinger only told Sansa what it was convenient for him to tell Sansa. Littlefinger is, IMO looking PAST Harry, to what comes next AFTER he bumps off Harry, he just doesn’t want to tell Sansa that he actually intends for Harry to die.

People think I go too far with my investigations of clues about lineage and influence, but really, Harry is a big part of the reason why I do it. When the big knot gets unravelled at the end, lineages will be at the core of it.

I would guess that when the dust settles, Sansa herself (people believing her brothers all dead) will prove to be the key to the Kingdoms, and not by marriage to Harry. Jocelyn Stark may have married into the Vale but she descended from a Royce, and had the name Jocelyn, which is a strong clue that she and her brother descended from a Baratheon at the very least, but probably also from the original Jocelyn and the line of Rhaenys, queen who never was.

Something like this is the likely route:

Baela + Alyn -> Velaryon daughter + Penrose -> Ronnel Penrose + Elaena Targaryen -> (Jocelyn?) Penrose (b. 186-199)+ Blackwood -> Melantha Blackwood (b. in or before 214) + Willam Stark -> Jocelyn Stark (b.216-227), Edwyle Stark (Sansa’s great-grandfather)

AND

Rhaena + Garmund Hightower -> daughter or granddaughter (b. 137-152) + (Donnel?) Arryn -> daughter or granddaughter (b. 154-185) + Royce -> Lorra Royce (b. before 201) + Beron Stark -> Willam Stark + Melantha Blackwood etc.

brother Royce of Lorra + unknown wife -> Royce son +Unknown wife -> Benedict Royce + Jocelyn Stark

That is just the Stark side of course. Sansa’s Tully lineage would be equally interesting and may contain fewer second or third daughters and sons.

 

Edited by Hippocras
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

Is Harry descended from Jocelyn Stark’s daughter and the daughter’s Waynwood husband, via their (grand)son Elys Waynwood?

Or, in other words:

Is Harry the Heir the heir to both the Eyrie AND Winterfell, and is Littlefinger is going to solidify his claim on the North by marrying Sansa to Harry (a la Downton Abbey)?

Nice theory, but I'm afraid it's not possible.

We are told Elys Waynwood is the uncle of the current Lady Waynwood. That means that he was a younger brother of Lady Waynwoods father.

If Elys descended from Jocelyn, so would his elder brother. Therefore, any claim to the North that may stem from Jocelyn would have gone to  the main branch of the Waynwood family, not to Harry.

10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:
  • Is Sansa currently second in line to Riverrun, until Edmure’s baby is born?

If we ignore the fact that Edmure no longer is Lord of Riverrun, and Sansa is nowhere to be found, then yes.

10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said:

I’ve always found Littlefinger’s interest in Harry the Heir to be a little disproportionate to him being heir to the Vale. Also something about the tapestries of Robert’s that Cersei sent to Littlefinger and the fact that they were mentioned twice (AFFC, Cersei III & Alayne I) seems to indicate something is in the tapestries that Littlefinger wants in his possession.

Being the heir to the lordship of the Vale is a huge thing by itself. Specially when the current lord has very bad health and is in no position to sire children. I do not think that Littlefinger's interest on him is disproportionate at all.

That said, there's certainly something going on with those tapestries.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, The hairy bear said:

Nice theory, but I'm afraid it's not possible.

We are told Elys Waynwood is the uncle of the current Lady Waynwood. That means that he was a younger brother of Lady Waynwoods father.

If Elys descended from Jocelyn, so would his elder brother. Therefore, any claim to the North that may stem from Jocelyn would have gone to  the main branch of the Waynwood family, not to Harry.

If we ignore the fact that Edmure no longer is Lord of Riverrun, and Sansa is nowhere to be found, then yes.

Being the heir to the lordship of the Vale is a huge thing by itself. Specially when the current lord has very bad health and is in no position to sire children. I do not think that Littlefinger's interest on him is disproportionate at all.

That said, there's certainly something going on with those tapestries.

 

 

I think they could just be a bribe to help sweeten lord nestor while making  his new ally look more important.

That said they could have other uses such as reminding the valw lords of their proud history and fealty to the arryns  , maybe it shows some baratheons with their black hair if hes gonna take the lords to rebel or even decalre independence vs the lannisters etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...