Eden-Mackenzie Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) Littlefinger and Sansa explain how Harrolyd Hardyng is Robert Arryn’s heir in AFFC Alayne II, but I’ve always found Littlefinger’s interest in Harry the Heir to be a little disproportionate to him being heir to the Vale. Also something about the tapestries of Robert’s that Cersei sent to Littlefinger and the fact that they were mentioned twice (AFFC, Cersei III & Alayne I) seems to indicate something is in the tapestries that Littlefinger wants in his possession. For awhile I was thinking maybe Harry was a Targaryen descendent through the Targaryen-Arryn marriages back in the day. The tie-in to the tapestries would be Robert removed all Targaryen decor, so maybe he pulled down an extensive family tree, showing all the distant Targaryen relatives…? But, it seems pretty clear the Arryn-Targaryen matches were not overly fruitful, so yeah, likely no secret/forgotten Targs in the Vale. Today, I was reading about the lack of extended family for the Starks, and also Robb’s will, and how Robb did not want to leave Winterfell to some rando from the Vale, and a train of thought occurred to me. Jocelyn Stark married Benedict Royce and they had three daughters, one married a Waynwood, one a Corbray, and one a Templeton (maybe). Catelyn mentioned them in that order, so presumably the Waynwood marriage involved the oldest daughter. The daughters and their husbands are unnamed. Harry the Heir is heir to the Vale by virtue of his descendancy from Alys Arryn, Jon Arryn’s sister, who married Elys Waynwood. Elys Waynwood is Anya Waynwood’s uncle, but she rules as Lady of Ironoaks instead of someone from Elys’s line, so her father was the oldest sibling. Lady Anya’s parents are unnamed, as are her father and uncle Elys’s parents. Tapestries could still be family tree related, not necessarily Targaryen family tree. So, my question about Harry the Heir is this: Is Harry descended from Jocelyn Stark’s daughter and the daughter’s Waynwood husband, via their (grand)son Elys Waynwood? Or, in other words: Is Harry the Heir the heir to both the Eyrie AND Winterfell, and is Littlefinger is going to solidify his claim on the North by marrying Sansa to Harry (a la Downton Abbey)? Other related questions: Is Sansa currently second in line to Riverrun, until Edmure’s baby is born? Will Littlefinger leave Robert Arryn alive and under his control? (I feel like controlling 3 of the 7 kingdoms through his grandchildren is the ultimate FU to Hoster Tully) Please note I’ve done zero timeline comparisons to see if this is even possible, just checked family trees to confirm no names. Like I said, Littlefinger’s interest in both Harry and some random tapestries from King’s Landing has always seemed a little much for me, the Vale seems a little too small potatoes. This is the first “ooooh” thought I’ve had about the series in a long time, hopefully it’s not a complete dud. Edited February 12 by Eden-Mackenzie Mad King Bolton and KingStoneheart 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hippocras Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 (edited) @Eden-Mackenzie I have always interpreted Harry as more of a clue about the kinds of investigations we should be doing elsewhere, rather than as someone who is in any way key himself. With Harry’s lineage story Littlefinger inadvertently told Sansa how he thinks and what he is up to in the Kingdoms in general, not specifically with Harry. But I think Littlefinger only told Sansa what it was convenient for him to tell Sansa. Littlefinger is, IMO looking PAST Harry, to what comes next AFTER he bumps off Harry, he just doesn’t want to tell Sansa that he actually intends for Harry to die. People think I go too far with my investigations of clues about lineage and influence, but really, Harry is a big part of the reason why I do it. When the big knot gets unravelled at the end, lineages will be at the core of it. I would guess that when the dust settles, Sansa herself (people believing her brothers all dead) will prove to be the key to the Kingdoms, and not by marriage to Harry. Jocelyn Stark may have married into the Vale but she descended from a Royce, and had the name Jocelyn, which is a strong clue that she and her brother descended from a Baratheon at the very least, but probably also from the original Jocelyn and the line of Rhaenys, queen who never was. Something like this is the likely route: Baela + Alyn -> Velaryon daughter + Penrose -> Ronnel Penrose + Elaena Targaryen -> (Jocelyn?) Penrose (b. 186-199)+ Blackwood -> Melantha Blackwood (b. in or before 214) + Willam Stark -> Jocelyn Stark (b.216-227), Edwyle Stark (Sansa’s great-grandfather) AND Rhaena + Garmund Hightower -> daughter or granddaughter (b. 137-152) + (Donnel?) Arryn -> daughter or granddaughter (b. 154-185) + Royce -> Lorra Royce (b. before 201) + Beron Stark -> Willam Stark + Melantha Blackwood etc. brother Royce of Lorra + unknown wife -> Royce son +Unknown wife -> Benedict Royce + Jocelyn Stark That is just the Stark side of course. Sansa’s Tully lineage would be equally interesting and may contain fewer second or third daughters and sons. Edited February 14 by Hippocras Mad King Bolton 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The hairy bear Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said: Is Harry descended from Jocelyn Stark’s daughter and the daughter’s Waynwood husband, via their (grand)son Elys Waynwood? Or, in other words: Is Harry the Heir the heir to both the Eyrie AND Winterfell, and is Littlefinger is going to solidify his claim on the North by marrying Sansa to Harry (a la Downton Abbey)? Nice theory, but I'm afraid it's not possible. We are told Elys Waynwood is the uncle of the current Lady Waynwood. That means that he was a younger brother of Lady Waynwoods father. If Elys descended from Jocelyn, so would his elder brother. Therefore, any claim to the North that may stem from Jocelyn would have gone to the main branch of the Waynwood family, not to Harry. 10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said: Is Sansa currently second in line to Riverrun, until Edmure’s baby is born? If we ignore the fact that Edmure no longer is Lord of Riverrun, and Sansa is nowhere to be found, then yes. 10 hours ago, Eden-Mackenzie said: I’ve always found Littlefinger’s interest in Harry the Heir to be a little disproportionate to him being heir to the Vale. Also something about the tapestries of Robert’s that Cersei sent to Littlefinger and the fact that they were mentioned twice (AFFC, Cersei III & Alayne I) seems to indicate something is in the tapestries that Littlefinger wants in his possession. Being the heir to the lordship of the Vale is a huge thing by itself. Specially when the current lord has very bad health and is in no position to sire children. I do not think that Littlefinger's interest on him is disproportionate at all. That said, there's certainly something going on with those tapestries. Daena the Defiant and astarkchoice 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 12 Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, The hairy bear said: Nice theory, but I'm afraid it's not possible. We are told Elys Waynwood is the uncle of the current Lady Waynwood. That means that he was a younger brother of Lady Waynwoods father. If Elys descended from Jocelyn, so would his elder brother. Therefore, any claim to the North that may stem from Jocelyn would have gone to the main branch of the Waynwood family, not to Harry. If we ignore the fact that Edmure no longer is Lord of Riverrun, and Sansa is nowhere to be found, then yes. Being the heir to the lordship of the Vale is a huge thing by itself. Specially when the current lord has very bad health and is in no position to sire children. I do not think that Littlefinger's interest on him is disproportionate at all. That said, there's certainly something going on with those tapestries. I think they could just be a bribe to help sweeten lord nestor while making his new ally look more important. That said they could have other uses such as reminding the valw lords of their proud history and fealty to the arryns , maybe it shows some baratheons with their black hair if hes gonna take the lords to rebel or even decalre independence vs the lannisters etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gilbert Green Posted February 14 Share Posted February 14 The reason he is called "Harry the Heir" is because he is the heir presumptive of Lord Robert Arryn, precisely as Littlefinger laboriously explains to Sansa in the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eden-Mackenzie Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 On 2/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, The hairy bear said: Nice theory, but I'm afraid it's not possible. We are told Elys Waynwood is the uncle of the current Lady Waynwood. That means that he was a younger brother of Lady Waynwoods father. If Elys descended from Jocelyn, so would his elder brother. Therefore, any claim to the North that may stem from Jocelyn would have gone to the main branch of the Waynwood family, not to Harry. Well damn, I even mentioned that Anya’s father was the elder brother and still ignored it wrt Harry… On 2/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, The hairy bear said: If we ignore the fact that Edmure no longer is Lord of Riverrun, and Sansa is nowhere to be found, then yes. Oh yes, I am completely ignoring Edmure being unseated, but I also apparently decided to ignore that *we* know Bran and Rickon are still alive and presumably would come before Sansa. On 2/12/2024 at 5:40 AM, The hairy bear said: Being the heir to the lordship of the Vale is a huge thing by itself. Specially when the current lord has very bad health and is in no position to sire children. I do not think that Littlefinger's interest on him is disproportionate at all. That said, there's certainly something going on with those tapestries. At one point Littlefinger seemed to be angling to be the Grand Puppet Master of Kings Landing, so I guess to it just seems like a bit of a come down to just be focused on the Vale, especially since the Vale has been so disconnected from the events of everything in the story. I guess there are still the tapestries though… On 2/12/2024 at 12:57 AM, Hippocras said: @Eden-Mackenzie I have always interpreted Harry as more of a clue about the kinds of investigations we should be doing elsewhere, rather than as someone who is in any way key himself. … People think I go too far with my investigations of clues about lineage and influence, but really, Harry is a big part of the reason why I do it. When the big knot gets unravelled at the end, lineages will be at the core of it. I would guess that when the dust settles, Sansa herself (people believing her brothers all dead) will prove to be the key to the Kingdoms, and not by marriage to Harry. … That is just the Stark side of course. Sansa’s Tully lineage would be equally interesting and may contain fewer second or third daughters and sons. Interesting! I do hope we eventually get more lineage info, the blanks that we have seem too pointed to *not* be meaningful, but it’s also getting kinda late in the game for some of it… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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