astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 8 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: A place like Queens Crown and others like it should be resettled. The mountain clans would be a good choice to do it. They have proven loyalty, they already live in the hard, cold north. The Flints have already proven to be able to rule lands and castles in the south. Each of the larger mountain clans could be given some land. Of course, an off shoot of the Starks would also be a good idea, similar to the Karstark's. Build everything with surviving winter as the main goal, i.e. farming and fishing, and storage of food. Defending the settlement would be important. So, the Starks would have to help build keeps, towers and walls. With mountains in the area, stone for building would be available(at least in the west). Then you could also look into what type of mining could be done to generate some $$$. The issue there is its backwards Fix the watch and the gift is awsome ! Trim back the forrest and fix up all thw towers etc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: The issue there is its backwards Fix the watch and the gift is awsome ! Trim back the forrest and fix up all thw towers etc! To go forward, you have to go backwards. The watch is on its last legs. Better to resettle the Gift and protect the new holdings first. Fixing the watch is the much harder and longer road. Once settled, the revenue and food produced can be sent to the Watch instead of Winterfell, to help in the rebuilding, The watch needs men before anything else. It is a structural deficit that effects everything else. They cant even chop down trees and man the castles they have already. It is all for nothing anyway until the Others are taken care of. Aldarion and astarkchoice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 37 minutes ago, Northern Sword said: To go forward, you have to go backwards. The watch is on its last legs. Better to resettle the Gift and protect the new holdings first. Fixing the watch is the much harder and longer road. Once settled, the revenue and food produced can be sent to the Watch instead of Winterfell, to help in the rebuilding, The watch needs men before anything else. It is a structural deficit that effects everything else. They cant even chop down trees and man the castles they have already. It is all for nothing anyway until the Others are taken care of. True But even with the limited men they have chopping back the forrest would create a clear line of sight to prevent wildlings slippiing over...and wood to keep the north warm/sell to bravos! The issue is the northerners have already rejected the gift to settle as it is and voted with their feet!...no one wants to live in lands where someone could rape or kill you at any min! Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sword Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 3 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: True But even with the limited men they have chopping back the forrest would create a clear line of sight to prevent wildlings slippiing over...and wood to keep the north warm/sell to bravos! The issue is the northerners have already rejected the gift to settle as it is and voted with their feet!...no one wants to live in lands where someone could rape or kill you at any min! Quite the predicament. I think the Others will make this a non issue once they attack. Nothing will be left alive once they run through the Wall and North. astarkchoice 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, astarkchoice said: The issue is the northerners have already rejected the gift to settle as it is and voted with their feet!...no one wants to live in lands where someone could rape or kill you at any min! It could also happen if local lord really wants to have sex with some peasant or just kill somebody. After all we know what Roose did when he saw a woman who seemed to be healthy and fertile. So sometimes people would be more safe living at Gift that near castles or manors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 minute ago, Loose Bolt said: It could also happen if local lord really wants to have sex with some peasant or just kill somebody. After all we know what Roose did when he saw a woman who seemed to be healthy and fertile. So sometimes people would be more safe living at Gift that near castles or manors. True but roose alspushes for a quiet land..ie he keeps his dark shit on the down low so lord eddard never hears. 99% of the people on his lands probably never even met the guy.....by contrast anyone near the wall has gotta be nervous everytime it gets dark! Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loose Bolt Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 56 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: by contrast anyone near the wall has gotta be nervous everytime it gets dark! But Gift is huge. Or land area of both gifts is about as large than average state of USA. So if a person living in there is careful he should be very unlucky if his home is visited by raiders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 On 2/20/2024 at 3:05 PM, Lady Ella said: The Starks are used to looking after themselves. It would never occur to them to ask someone else for something. In other words, they never came to think like vassals and never became dependent on the Iron Throne. Ned was basically already talking about taking the New Gift back by resettling it, but I don't think he was planning on involving the king in that - he was plotting with his inside man Benjen instead. In fact, it did not take the Starks very long after overthrowing the Targaryens to talk about resettling the Gift. If the Starks were going to ask Robert for anything it should have been food in winter. When Robert goes to Winterfell, he specifically asks Ned about winter, and Ned's reply is: 'The winters are hard. But the Starks will endure. We always have.' That was the perfect opportunity to ask for food, and it simply didn't occur to him. The attitude is: we've managed perfectly fine on our own for centuries, why would we need anyone else's help? The Starks need to ask the king for leave to follow through with Ned's plan: His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. Ned cannot raise lords in his own right. That can only be done via king or descent. Jon might be referring to parceling out land for people to rule as landed knights or gentry, but that would leave the onus of traditional lordly duties (pits, gallows, law) in the hands of the woefully undermanned NW; the lack of resources of the NW being the primary driver in resettling the New Gift and making sure it has people to run it. Being realistic here, Robert and / or Jon Arryn would most likely rubber stamp any proposal because it's Ned and realistically who cares about that piece of land OTHER than the NW and the new settlers. Aldarion, astarkchoice and Northern Sword 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 3 hours ago, Loose Bolt said: But Gift is huge. Or land area of both gifts is about as large than average state of USA. So if a person living in there is careful he should be very unlucky if his home is visited by raiders. Butt the issue is it cpuld be . If you are a few miles from the wall people know they slip over and slip back. Your life goods, livestock , food and women wouldnt be secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 21 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: The Starks need to ask the king for leave to follow through with Ned's plan: His lord father had once talked about raising new lords and settling them in the abandoned holdfasts as a shield against wildlings. The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around, so long as the new lordlings paid taxes to Castle Black rather than Winterfell. Ned cannot raise lords in his own right. That can only be done via king or descent. Jon might be referring to parceling out land for people to rule as landed knights or gentry, but that would leave the onus of traditional lordly duties (pits, gallows, law) in the hands of the woefully undermanned NW; the lack of resources of the NW being the primary driver in resettling the New Gift and making sure it has people to run it. Being realistic here, Robert and / or Jon Arryn would most likely rubber stamp any proposal because it's Ned and realistically who cares about that piece of land OTHER than the NW and the new settlers. Since the Watch elects its Lord we cannot presume thats true of the Watch and the lands it controls its very possible that new lords can be made for the gift simply by the lord commander agreeing to it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 28 Share Posted February 28 7 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: Since the Watch elects its Lord we cannot presume thats true of the Watch and the lands it controls its very possible that new lords can be made for the gift simply by the lord commander agreeing to it The entire premise of the proposal was that the lords pay their fees to the NW but are loyal to WF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted February 28 Author Share Posted February 28 17 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: The entire premise of the proposal was that the lords pay their fees to the NW but are loyal to WF Indeed and there are several ways to arrange that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 (edited) 23 hours ago, Alden Rothack said: Indeed and there are several ways to arrange that Other than grant the land -- meaning its no longer the NW's land -- to the lords, who obey WF, and pay their taxes to the NW, what other arrangements are possible? Edited February 29 by Universal Sword Donor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 51 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said: Other than grant the land -- meaning its no longer the NW's land -- to the lords, who obey WF, and pay their taxes to the NW, what other arrangements are possible? Subsume Watch into the Northern Kingdom, make it become basically regular border force. Then the Gift could be settled by regular feudal clients, including feudal troops which would realistically be far superior to the Night's Watch. Northern Sword 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 29 Share Posted February 29 10 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Subsume Watch into the Northern Kingdom, make it become basically regular border force. Then the Gift could be settled by regular feudal clients, including feudal troops which would realistically be far superior to the Night's Watch. That's not Ned's proposal. You're not wrong about it being far superior, but that's not ned's proposal and not many lords are going to want to bring a group* of "rapists, murderers and thieves" onto their land. * obviously there are more than a few bad apples as we see but that characterization isn't super accurate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted March 4 Author Share Posted March 4 On 2/29/2024 at 8:09 PM, Universal Sword Donor said: That's not Ned's proposal. You're not wrong about it being far superior, but that's not ned's proposal and not many lords are going to want to bring a group* of "rapists, murderers and thieves" onto their land. * obviously there are more than a few bad apples as we see but that characterization isn't super accurate Given how few of them there are I have my doubts it would rise the numbers of scum all that much On 2/29/2024 at 7:04 PM, Universal Sword Donor said: Other than grant the land -- meaning its no longer the NW's land -- to the lords, who obey WF, and pay their taxes to the NW, what other arrangements are possible? If they are paying their taxes to the Watch for land granting them by the watch then its theirs whether they take their orders from Winterfell or not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 5 Share Posted March 5 On 3/4/2024 at 9:49 AM, Alden Rothack said: Given how few of them there are I have my doubts it would rise the numbers of scum all that much If they are paying their taxes to the Watch for land granting them by the watch then its theirs whether they take their orders from Winterfell or not It is if it’s not the watch’s land, which is explicitly in the proposal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 On 3/5/2024 at 7:38 PM, Universal Sword Donor said: It is if it’s not the watch’s land, which is explicitly in the proposal how do you figure that, they are paying the watch for the land not winterfell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted March 7 Share Posted March 7 1 hour ago, Alden Rothack said: how do you figure that, they are paying the watch for the land not winterfell It’s literally in Jon’s quote: “The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around ….” There’s no one else to yield the land back to except for the lords who it was seized from in the first place. We don’t know exactly which ones but we can imagine it’s the closest houses / clans: Umber, Flint, Norrey, Wull, Karstark (?) and / or another house that was completely moved off the gift and given land elsewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alden Rothack Posted March 7 Author Share Posted March 7 3 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said: It’s literally in Jon’s quote: “The plan would have required the Watch to yield back a large part of the Gift, but his uncle Benjen believed the Lord Commander could be won around ….” There’s no one else to yield the land back to except for the lords who it was seized from in the first place. We don’t know exactly which ones but we can imagine it’s the closest houses / clans: Umber, Flint, Norrey, Wull, Karstark (?) and / or another house that was completely moved off the gift and given land elsewhere. There were likely quite a few minor unnamed houses on the New Gift given how big it is, the plan itself is quite odd, the watch is 'giving up' the land to new lords but its getting the taxes from those lords as though the land was still theirs, which is not how it works anywhere else. Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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