astarkchoice Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 Just a thread on danys choices in slavers bay. Now she is told that the unsullied are special and that ordinary slave soilders can be had.in yunkai and mereen and they cost less than the swords they carry. Soo it does lead to the interesting what if.... if shed taken that option what size of force could she have had! I think its barristan thay also points out that if belwas impresses her that gladiators are for sale in mereen so again another possibility (not for an army but she could have fleshed out her queensguard!) Danys gave 3 boats worth of rare goods and what her ragtag group had with her, the stuff on the boats was so rare it might as well have been gold and it only bought her 1000 unsullied. (Her brag about paying double.meant they reduced it to 500) so we can assume she could have walked out of slavers bay problem free with 10s of thousands of cheap poorly armed troops. We dont know what swords cost but we do know a knight ( dunk) armoured himself utterly for around 3-4 gold dragons. So lets assume at the absolute most expensive its say 2 gold dragons to get a sword, another 2 for the slave(as cheap as the sword) and say 2 more for a helmet and some chainmail+ basic padding so very very roughly 6 dragons per unit. Now a medival galleon can carry about 400 ton of cargo so even one boat should buy loads! Now we know yunkai fielded 4k troops vs dany short.notice and later siege of mereen numbers are sketchy but the clanker lords summon about 30-40k largely ordinary but many in stupid outfits(probably taking longer than it would take to outfit them properly) Add in mereens production (larger and probably able to produce more) and it would seem had she left the slavers alone and waited just a few months/weekd she could have had say a core of say 50 unsullied as her personal guard to suplement jorah, the half dozen of so dothraki, barristan and belwas and easily walked away with say 20-30k troops for probably as little as a boats worth of goods! This is all assuming ilyrio wouldnt back her with more Now she already has 3 boats at her command and sallador saan was worth 30k gold dragons a month for 24 ships! Soo a 2nd boats worth of goods probably gets her at least twice that (we can assume thats being very generous as salladors ships are pirate raiders and danybwoukd be hiring cargo/troop ships) and probably enough left over for food + supplies for the troops while they get dumped off in batches to sayy dorne! Final boats worth of goods we know the storm crows (assuming daario doesnt fall in love again and knock his fee to cht and 2nd sons were in the area both could cut down on costs of arming the slaves based on tyrions vist to 2nd sons armoury it seems sellswords have a huge surplus of weapons vs men. So for the 3rd boat wel say she can at least get 1000 nearby mercs, plus the 300 crossbowmen available in nearby elyria(2nd mereen siege) and possibly if they get there fast enough the long lances and windblown for another 2000+ 800 mercs! Again this last boatload of goods being spent could be instead buying more sellsails or even assasins to go ahead to westeros. So rather than risk war with slavers dany could have a huge slave army merc force possibly preceeded⁵ŕ by assasins hitting key targets before she sat down innwesteros and possibly been reinforced by the golden company.laterr! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 She essentially got the Unsullied for free though. Not sure if she can pull that same trick with regular slave soldiers. Aldarion and astarkchoice 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 13 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: She essentially got the Unsullied for free though. Not sure if she can pull that same trick with regular slave soldiers. Free true ...but at the cost of derailing her quest to get the iron throne AND pissing off a sizeable portion of the dangerously rich people worldwide AND starting a new campaign where her life has been in peril numerous times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeanF Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I think a vast slave army would be more trouble than it was worth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 10 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Free true ...but at the cost of derailing her quest to get the iron throne AND pissing off a sizeable portion of the dangerously rich people worldwide AND starting a new campaign where her life has been in peril numerous times She could still have got the Unsullied then gone to Westeros if she bothered to confiscate Slaver property. At that point she would have the means to hire ships. Plus from what we've seen the non-unsullied slave soldiers bar the Volantene ones are stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H Wadsworth Longfellow Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) Daenerys Targaryen rescued the Unsullied from their masters. That was an important part of the plot. She is the Liberator, the Breaker of Chains, as well as Azor Ahai. Anyway, by saving the Unsullied from their terrible lives and giving them a worthy purpose, she has changed their story. With the Unsullied at her side, the Dothraki, her natural smarts, and ofcourse her powerful dragons, all things are now within reach. It would have been a mistake to accept the Magister's offer. Instead of depending on another for power and security, she now has them for her own. The Unsullied answer to her and to her designated commanders. Daenerys is free to chart her own course. She can rescue the slaves and reshape that part of Essos to her liking before crossing the seas to take her Westeros back from the pretenders. She has that authority because is Azor Ahai, the daughter of the ruling class of Valyria, and the Targaryen monarch. Edited February 18 by H Wadsworth Longfellow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 (edited) 1 hour ago, SeanF said: I think a vast slave army would be more trouble than it was worth. Not as good as the standard infantry in westeros no but shit they are still humans with weapons...given enough training they could be formidable. Besides with dany comming and the dragons plus her claim its simply the idea that 'shes bringing an army of 20k-30k with her AND if its quick enough shel have dorne and the reach backing her esp with garbled talk of her backing force Edited February 18 by astarkchoice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 1 hour ago, Craving Peaches said: She could still have got the Unsullied then gone to Westeros if she bothered to confiscate Slaver property. At that point she would have the means to hire ships. Plus from what we've seen the non-unsullied slave soldiers bar the Volantene ones are stupid. The yunaki masters gave her that option but theres a difference in going with an oversized bodyguard detail (7k) and going with an army. The slave troops fit into 2 categories od say 1: lifelong ones like the tiger guard in volantis , probably each slaver city has a few thousand of something similar a professional force whos lives are probably better than many free serfs and will kill their fellow slaves to preserve the status quo. These guys will ve every bit as good as the westerosi foot but few 2: consripts like the bulk of the 'clanker lord' poorly trained and armed rabble raised from ordinary labour slave stock. Now thw yunkai lords have outfitted many of them like clowns yes and they wont be as good quality as even the greenish westerosi foot...but they are still can kill and as the old saying goes "quantity has a quality all of its own" ..these arw what dany would be getting..the main impact theyd have though is getting her back to westeros far faster than the route shes taking AND the rumours will be of a large army at her back for the many many lords who may be fence sitting oppertunists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 23 hours ago, astarkchoice said: Not as good as the standard infantry in westeros no but shit they are still humans with weapons...given enough training they could be formidable. Besides with dany comming and the dragons plus her claim its simply the idea that 'shes bringing an army of 20k-30k with her AND if its quick enough shel have dorne and the reach backing her esp with garbled talk of her backing force Problem is that slavery is a big NO-NO in Westeros. If she brings a massive army of slaves with her... or even former slaves - Westerosi are unlikely to know the difference... she can tell goodbye to much of the local Westerosi support. And unless the Others kill off like 90% of Westeros, there is absolutely no army anywhere east of Braavos and west of Yi Ti that can match Westerosi armies on anything like even terms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 30 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Westerosi are unlikely to know the difference... Doubtful, Westerosi know the difference between freedmen and slave and by the time she goes west, the tales about her fight against slavery will have travelled west too. 31 minutes ago, Aldarion said: she can tell goodbye to much of the local Westerosi support. Very much disagree, she is way too powerful for that for that to ever realistically without plor related reasons. There's bound to be plenty of Lords who would flock to the Targaryen princess, this one legit, with three dragons and a massve army behind her. The Ironborn and the Martells aren't the only ones with half a brain. 34 minutes ago, Aldarion said: there is absolutely no army anywhere east of Braavos and west of Yi Ti that can match Westerosi armies on anything like even terms. So you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 42 minutes ago, frenin said: the tales about her fight against slavery will have travelled west too. That assumes they are not distorted by distance or lies deliberately being spread. We already know less than flattering rumours about Daenerys are spreading and that there are a lot of conflicting accounts going around. Quote The more Quentyn heard of Daenerys Targaryen, the more he feared that meeting. The Yunkai'i claimed that she fed her dragons on human flesh and bathed in the blood of virgins to keep her skin smooth and supple. Beans laughed at that but relished the tales of the silver queen's promiscuity. "One of her captains comes of a line where the men have foot-long members," he told them, "but even he's not big enough for her. She rode with the Dothraki and grew accustomed to being fucked by stallions, so now no man can fill her." And Books, the clever Volantene swordsman who always seemed to have his nose poked in some crumbly scroll, thought the dragon queen both murderous and mad. "Her khal killed her brother to make her queen. Then she killed her khal to make herself khaleesi. She practices blood sacrifice, lies as easily as she breathes, turns against her own on a whim. She's broken truces, tortured envoys … her father was mad too. It runs in the blood." Quote Sailors back from the Jade Sea report that a three-headed dragon has hatched in Qarth, and is the wonder of that city— Quote "The tales are not the same," insisted Armen. "Dragons in Asshai, dragons in Qarth, dragons in Meereen, Dothraki dragons, dragons freeing slaves . . . each telling differs from the last." Quote If the sailors could be believed, the east was seething with wonders and terrors: a slave revolt in Astapor, dragons in Qarth, grey plague in Yi Ti. Quote "The slave revolt in Astapor has spread to Meereen, it would seem. Plus many people don't believe all these tales. The idea of there being dragons is consistent but not of freeing slaves. It is characterised in the rumours as being a slave revolt, which doesn't say much about Daenerys liberating the slaves. Also, people (or at least the peasants) are not going to be happy with Daenerys for other reasons - she is bringing a load of additional mouths to feed to an already food-short continent in winter, is bringing a load of foreigners with 'heathen' religion etc. Overall I think it would be poor writing if loads of people just voluntarily decided to support Daenerys despite all the reasons they would have to not support her. Being coerced into giving support is another matter. Aldarion and the trees have eyes 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: That assumes they are not distorted by distance or lies deliberately being spread. We already know less than flattering rumours about Daenerys are spreading and that there are a lot of conflicting accounts going around. Rumours spread by slavers and to slavers only consumption. Most Westerosi are incredbly xenophobic and anti slavery. They won't care much about what she does east except that she's fighting slavers. 12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Also, people (or at least the peasants) are not going to be happy with Daenerys for other reasons - she is bringing a load of additional mouths to feed to an already food-short continent in winter, Peasants are not going to think that, nobles might tho. 12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: is bringing a load of foreigners with 'heathen' religion etc. Yeah that is true. 12 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Overall I think it would be poor writing if loads of people just voluntarily decided to support Daenerys despite all the reasons they would have to not support her. Being coerced into giving support is another matter. Having a huge army, being the last Targaryen and having at her command the ultimate legitimacy symbols in breathing dragons are more than enough reasons for a sizable portion of the country to support her. Dany looks the part, acts the part and has the most important trappings of power and legitimacy on her side. That she would be unwelcomed and struggle to find support would be the blatantly poor writing. There are cons to not support Dany sure and plenty of people will choose not to support her for that but the pros are so obvious and outweigh the cons by a mile. If only because simply opportunism, like the Greyjoys or Martells, that Dany won't have significant defies logic. Edited February 19 by frenin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 9 minutes ago, frenin said: Peasants are not going to think that Why not? Peasants are more likely to be concerned about food then the nobles. 9 minutes ago, frenin said: That she would be unwelcomed and struggle to find support would be the blatantly poor writing I don't think she will struggle to find any support but I don't think she will necessarily have mass appeal. A big point being alluded to is that people aren't actually that bothered about restoring the Targaryens, especially the peasants who don't care as long as they are left alone. Daenerys is not going to leave them alone. Plus, Aegon has arrived before her. Edited February 19 by Craving Peaches Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 28 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Why not? Peasants are more likely to be concerned about food then the nobles. I have yet to read about a Westerosi peasant making such high spirited questions. 29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: A big point being alluded to is that people aren't actually that bothered about restoring the Targaryens, especially the peasants who don't care as long as they are left alone. Daenerys is not going to leave them alone. Plus, Aegon has arrived before her. Dany has the power, the looks and the dragons. Aegon or not, she is going to have mass appeal. Not that Aegon will have the strenght to project sovereignty over more than 3-4 kingdoms anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 4 minutes ago, frenin said: I have yet to read about a Westerosi peasant making such high spirited questions. It's not a high spirited question. It's a basic thing. They will be running out of food and hungry, and will blame all the newly arrived foreign heathens for 'stealing' it or whatever. I don't think this requires any deep thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 8 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: It's a basic thing A basic thing no peasant folk has questioned yet and they have complained about hunger a lot. They haven't really complained about foreign armies being too many for them to have any left to eat and half the kingdoms are occupied by the other half. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
astarkchoice Posted February 19 Author Share Posted February 19 2 hours ago, Aldarion said: Problem is that slavery is a big NO-NO in Westeros. If she brings a massive army of slaves with her... or even former slaves - Westerosi are unlikely to know the difference... she can tell goodbye to much of the local Westerosi support. And unless the Others kill off like 90% of Westeros, there is absolutely no army anywhere east of Braavos and west of Yi Ti that can match Westerosi armies on anything like even terms. Its not liked at all in westeros BUT that said we know had she went fast enough dorne and the reach could have been her backers and we know shes got crownland support + who knows what other minor lords . Add in varys will smooth the way for any targ control with his trusty crossbow and deus ex machina secret passsges to everywhere in KL ! Add in at that stage she was unmarried so ilyrio may reach out to her for a traditional inbred marriage to put his boy on the throne and in return shed get his wealth backing her and the golden company! Dunno id say the golden company are superior to any equal sized force in westeros and there among the free cities theres probably enough sellsword companies to raised 10s of thousands at least as good as their westerosi coubterparts. The slavers id say each city will have a small force of fulltime professional slave warriors whol be at least as good as any in westeros such as the tiger guard(the iron legions wel leave out as nonslaves) That said the force we are talking about will be the much larger forces the hastily raised former labour slaves that the clanker lords have dressed some as clowns. Now true these will be nowhere near as good as the westerosi foot but again quantity has a quality of its own and a good commander can make use of sub par troops as well as good ones. And finaly again the main impact itl have is the word of her arriving with an army , varys is correct that impressions shape reality esp with any fence sitting opertunist minor lords Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aldarion Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 2 hours ago, frenin said: Doubtful, Westerosi know the difference between freedmen and slave and by the time she goes west, the tales about her fight against slavery will have travelled west too. Tales change in telling, though. And in the OP's scenario, Daenerys does not have a campaign against slavery for fishwives to talk about. 2 hours ago, frenin said: Very much disagree, she is way too powerful for that for that to ever realistically without plor related reasons. There's bound to be plenty of Lords who would flock to the Targaryen princess, this one legit, with three dragons and a massve army behind her. The Ironborn and the Martells aren't the only ones with half a brain. Powerful, how? Read the OP if you have not: in this scenario, Daenaerys has cca 40 000 clanker lord slaves + 4 000 mercenaries. With that force, I would be surprised if she can beat Golden Company, let alone an army of Westerlands or Reach. 2 hours ago, frenin said: So you say. So I say. And I am correct. 1 hour ago, frenin said: Having a huge army, being the last Targaryen and having at her command the ultimate legitimacy symbols in breathing dragons are more than enough reasons for a sizable portion of the country to support her. Dany looks the part, acts the part and has the most important trappings of power and legitimacy on her side. That she would be unwelcomed and struggle to find support would be the blatantly poor writing. There are cons to not support Dany sure and plenty of people will choose not to support her for that but the pros are so obvious and outweigh the cons by a mile. If only because simply opportunism, like the Greyjoys or Martells, that Dany won't have significant defies logic. It won't be that easy. Legitimacy isn't everything - Aerys II was an undisputedly Targaryen, but that didn't help him. Ruler has to have something to offer in exchange for support. Sure, Daenaerys has dragons, but what will she offer? Hordes of undisciplined rapists and useless mouths? That is not exactly a sales pitch material. Having her be unquestionably accepted and supported as you expect her to be would be not just poor but outright stupid writing on Martin's part. And whatever Martin may be, he is not an idiot. 35 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Its not liked at all in westeros BUT that said we know had she went fast enough dorne and the reach could have been her backers and we know shes got crownland support + who knows what other minor lords . Add in varys will smooth the way for any targ control with his trusty crossbow and deus ex machina secret passsges to everywhere in KL ! Add in at that stage she was unmarried so ilyrio may reach out to her for a traditional inbred marriage to put his boy on the throne and in return shed get his wealth backing her and the golden company! That is about the only possible success scenario here. 36 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: Dunno id say the golden company are superior to any equal sized force in westeros and there among the free cities theres probably enough sellsword companies to raised 10s of thousands at least as good as their westerosi coubterparts. The slavers id say each city will have a small force of fulltime professional slave warriors whol be at least as good as any in westeros such as the tiger guard(the iron legions wel leave out as nonslaves) Golden Company is superior to any equal sized Westerosi force, true. But most other sellsword companies we see in Essos are very small - into hundreds of troops at most. And they will not be used to working and fighting together the way Westerosi armies do. As for slavers, Clanker Lord soldiers are pretty much militarily worthless. Tiger Soldiers are useful, but it is unlikely they will be a match for Westerosi soldiers, considering slavers' attitudes. 38 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: That said the force we are talking about will be the much larger forces the hastily raised former labour slaves that the clanker lords have dressed some as clowns. Now true these will be nowhere near as good as the westerosi foot but again quantity has a quality of its own and a good commander can make use of sub par troops as well as good ones. True, but on the flip side, these will never have experienced Westerosi cavalry charge, and mostly have never fought against actual soldiers either. Consider that Stannis beat some 30 000 - 40 000 Wildling warriors with 1 500 heavy cavalry, and that Reach alone can likely field cca 15 000 cavalry, you would need at least 200 000 - 400 000 clanker lord troops to make a significant impact here. With 40 000 clanker lords' troops and 4 000 mercenaries? Daenaerys' army can be destroyed by forces of any single kingdom, possibly even the Ironborn fighting on the solid ground. If a single Lord Paramount manages to properly mobilize, she is done for. 48 minutes ago, astarkchoice said: And finaly again the main impact itl have is the word of her arriving with an army , varys is correct that impressions shape reality esp with any fence sitting opertunist minor lords True, but that will depend on political developments in Westeros. And having slavers' armies with her will do her no favors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craving Peaches Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 59 minutes ago, frenin said: A basic thing no peasant folk has questioned yet and they have complained about hunger a lot. They haven't really complained about foreign armies being too many for them to have any left to eat and half the kingdoms are occupied by the other half. Quote The harvest wasn't burned south o' the river. Course, there's plenty want to take what we got. Wolves one day, Mummers the next. Them that's not looking for food are looking for plunder, Quote Lem glowered. "Your lion friends ride into some village, take all the food and every coin they find, and call it foraging. The wolves as well, so why not us? No one robbed you, dog. You just been good and foraged." Peasants and those associated with them have actually been complaining about armies taking their food, we don't see it that often because characters aren't near peasants that often but the complaints are definitely there. Given that the people taking the food next are going to be foreigners with a foreign religion I expect the dissatisfaction will get worse. Aldarion 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frenin Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 17 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Tales change in telling, though. And in the OP's scenario, Daenerys does not have a campaign against slavery for fishwives to talk about. Fair enough, so she only has her massive army and dragons. Not a bad start. 18 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Powerful, how? Read the OP if you have not: in this scenario, Daenaerys has cca 40 000 clanker lord slaves + 4 000 mercenaries. With that force, I would be surprised if she can beat Golden Company, let alone an army of Westerlands or Reach. Fair enough, no i didn't read it. 22 minutes ago, Aldarion said: So I say. And I am correct. I have read your essay, i find it pretty meaningless. Armies are as good or as bad as plot requires them to be and as of now, the plot has presented the Unsullied as unbeateable infantry unit and the westerosi armies as mainly formed by rabble, no matter how much you disagree on that one. 25 minutes ago, Aldarion said: but that didn't help him. Sure it did, how do you think half the continent still chose to die for his cause after the stunt he and his son had just pulled? 26 minutes ago, Aldarion said: but what will she offer? Hordes of undisciplined rapists and useless mouths? That is not exactly a sales pitch material. She'll offer restore the order after country fell to anarchy and contrary to Aegon she can actually achieve that. That's a hell of a sales pitch. 27 minutes ago, Aldarion said: Having her be unquestionably accepted and supported as you expect her to be would be not just poor but outright stupid writing on Martin's part. And whatever Martin may be, he is not an idiot. Well i did not say that she'd be unquestionably supported and accepted by all. A sizable part of the country will however accept and support her claim, she has the looks, she has the numbers and she has the legitimacy. Hell, before she has even set a foot in Westeros there's two great houses going her way in order to curry her favor and offer an alliance. Because believe it or not, people like to ally themselves with the one with dragons. The idea that she won't have good support in Westeros runs not only against common sense but it goes against the very text we're reading. 29 minutes ago, Craving Peaches said: Peasants and those associated with them have actually been complaining about armies taking their food, we don't see it that often because characters aren't near peasants that often but the complaints are definitely there. Given that the people taking the food next are going to be foreigners with a foreign religion I expect the dissatisfaction will get worse. Huh, fair enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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