Video Theory - with Eng sub - JonArya "Son of the Dragon and Daughter of the North"

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

Video Theory - with Eng sub - JonArya "Son of the Dragon and Daughter of the North"

 

Greetings!

With the revelation of the outline letter, it was revealed that Martin had envisioned a romance between Jon and Arya. Since then, it has been debated for years whether this idea continues. In this video we discuss the signs of JonArya.

[kissdbyfire]

You mean the outline where Martin says he was making shit up b/c the publisher or whoever was demanding one? The outline where there is no Cersei yet? The Cersei who he would then come up with to have the weird apparent non-Targ sibling on sibling incest? That outline? 
The story we are reading is not the same story. There’s nothing to Jon and Arya as a romantic pairing, despite the weird shipping of some readers who are into incest, I guess?

Martin wrote the relationship between Jon and Arya as the best sibling relationship in the books, even though they’re not siblings. And the weird apparently non-Targ toxic incest went to Jaime and Cersei. 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

First of all, I'm wondering, you may believe that this theory will not come true, you may even dislike the idea... there can never be a problem with that.

But in a forum meant for discussing theories/arguments etc., why, instead of discussing the arguments, do you directly draw a line in the sand like "I don't like it, the outline has been abandoned..." which closes the discussion in the first place? I have seen Jonerys and even sometimes Jonsa being discussed very easily in the forums with arguments, but when JonArya comes up, it is always the same meaningless reactions, you are very tiring in this way. One gets tired of going through the same thing for years. Be reasonable and argue against arguments with counter arguments, please. 

The video is there, you can listen to it with the subtitles on and write your own counter-arguments here. Please don't reject something before you listen the need to do so, reject it after you have done so. Thank you.

I also have a detailed analysis of the outline, you can read it if you have time. There is never, ever a situation like the one you mentioned. 

 

[kissdbyfire]

I listed the reasons why. 
1. the outline was made up to satisfy demands of the publisher or whoever. 
This by itself has meaning irt how likely or unlikely the theory is. 
 

2. In typical Martin style, where he creates all sorts of highly dysfunctional relationships between relatives, random people, etc, he makes the best possible big brother - little sister relationship be between 2 characters who are not siblings. Similar to how Brienne and Dunk are the best, truest knights even though neither is a knight. 
 

3. There was no Cersei in that outline. It seems Martin wanted sibling on sibling incest outside of the Targ line - at least apparently outside of it since there is a theory that claims it’s Jaime and Cersei who are Aerys’s not Tyrion. If true, could their incest be a clue to their parentage? Regardless, this is the alleged non-Targ sibling on sibling incest he went with. Since I don’t believe the story is supposed to be a manifesto on how awesome incest is, having several more couples engaging in it outside of the Targs seems a bit over the top. 
 

27 minutes ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

There is never, ever a situation like the one you mentioned. 

No idea what you’re referring to here.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

No, these are your comments/speculations on the outline.

However, I am talking about arguments based on the story written in books.

We can also discuss about the outline, no problem, but this is a separate thread and I gave a link.

[kissdbyfire]

2 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

We can also discuss about the outline, no problem, but this is a separate thread and I gave a link.

Apologies if I misunderstood but despite what you state above, in your OP you say, 

“With the revelation of the outline letter, it was revealed that Martin had envisioned a romance between Jon and Arya. Since then, it has been debated for years whether this idea continues. In this video we discuss the signs of JonArya.”

 

Also, I have asked for clarification but you keep ignoring it and not replying:

2 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

There is never, ever a situation like the one you mentioned. 

 

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

Apologies if I misunderstood but despite what you state above, in your OP you say, 

 

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding. I pointed out there that JonArya theorized after the letter, but as I mentioned at the beginning of the video, even though the theorization was after the letter, the idea actually goes back to 1999. I would like to draw attention to the last part of the passage.

 "In this video we discuss the signs of JonArya.”

Signs for a few sample in the books: Many in-text parts, such as the sentence marrying the king, or the blush the face, or the question "What do you know about my heart?" Of course, there are some parts in the second part of the video that are not directly within the text, in terms of story mathematics/irony, but our main arguments are the signs within the text.

18 hours ago, kissdbyfire said:

 Also, I have asked for clarification but you keep ignoring it and not replying:

21 hours ago, YeniAy_Ottoman said:

Actually, I said that I gave a link about the outline. I guess it wasn't very clear from the beginning. I wrote the sentence you quoted for your first comments about Outline. Then I gave a link about outline analysis.

Edited March 8 by YeniAy_Ottoman

[Springwatch]

There was an idea of Tyrion being in love with Arya too (iirc), but my instinct is that transferred to Shae, who might be a kind of Arya shadow, who knows? Maybe JonArya could go the same way.

Anyway, I'm fine with JonArya being discussed, even in favour because I'm expecting a kind of Aegon-and-his-sisters replay - not sexual, but the scenario alone might be enough to justify a bit of foreshadowing. Backshadowing, whatever.

On 3/7/2024 at 10:19 AM, kissdbyfire said:

You mean the outline where Martin says he was making shit up b/c the publisher or whoever was demanding one? 

He could be talking shit to you too. Isn't the fandom even more demanding than a publisher?

On 3/7/2024 at 10:19 AM, kissdbyfire said:

There’s nothing to Jon and Arya as a romantic pairing, despite the weird shipping of some readers who are into incest, I guess?

Too strong!! And it really bugs me when people suddenly conflate Martin's fantasy world (lots of incest, cousin marriages too) with the real world and real people's values. 

On 3/7/2024 at 10:19 AM, kissdbyfire said:

Martin wrote the relationship between Jon and Arya as the best sibling relationship in the books, even though they’re not siblings.

Can't argue with that.  Although if GRRM wants to go down the JonArya route, there is just about an opening for it, precisely because they're not siblings, and because they've been (or may be) separated in the years when Arya transitions away from childhood, so the sibling taboo never develops in the usual way. Not expecting it to happen.

[YeniAy_Ottoman]

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

He could be talking shit to you too. Isn't the fandom even more demanding than a publisher?

On 3/7/2024 at 1:19 PM, kissdbyfire said:

People can forget that Martin sometimes makes contradictory statements. Or that he chose to speak in a very roundabout way. For example, the statements he made after the show finale were truly confusing. The example he gave seemed to suggest that even if it wasn't the same finale, it would be very similar. I have argued for years that this finale will not be in the books, because when we examine the texts, there is no chance of progress in that direction...  A friend of mine accused me of being Pollyanna, I was too optimistic for him. Three years later, Martin finally made it very clear that the show and book finales will be very different: some of the dead characters would live, some of the living characters would die, he said. So, I wasn't too optimistic, I was realistic because everything is clearly visible in the book, if you know how to see it.

Back to our topic... There are multiple explanations about outline, but people stuck with the "I did a shit" explanation. In fact, you also read opposite statements in the same text. Nobody wants to see that part. So the "I made a shit" comment was not a very accurate statement.

The author announced that he was moving towards the final, which he had been aiming for since the 90s. He said he knew the endings of the big five, Sansa and the great Lannisters, he knew who would sit on the iron throne, who would marry, who would die... he made it very clear that he was proceeding as planned from the very beginning. This is what I was trying to say to Kissing, her interpretation is not correct, such a situation is not the case in the outline.

When we review the outline, we see very clearly that the storyline/arc continues to be processed exactly as written in the letter, but there are some changes in the plot. Tyrion was betrayed by his family in every way, Sansa married a Lannister in every way, etc. We cannot get stuck in the plot and think that the storyline/arc has changed.

Although Martin accepted some changes, he said that he did not deviate from the story he had thought of from the beginning, but only expanded the story further.

Quote

 

GEORGE: […]As I write these last two books, I’ll be moving towards the ending I’ve known since 1991/...“Some major characters — yes, I always had plans, what Tyrion’s arc was gonna be through this, what Arya’s arc was gonna be through this, what Jon Snow’s arc is gonna be. ”...I don’t want to reveal what I’ve planned for some of these characters, but I’m pretty well on track with most of the major characters. It’s minor characters like Bronn that assume greater importance.”
...
Q: Have the plotlines diverged much since you began writing the series, or did you have the entire plot more or less figured out from the very beginning? Were any characters added or further fleshed out beyond your original intention? Have you made any changes to your initial plans during the course of the writing of the series?

GRRM: I won’t say the plotlines have diverged, but the process of getting from here to there has taken more time and more pages than I initially estimated… perhaps because I found the places and people I encountered along the way so interesting. The secondary and tertiary characters are largely to blame, the spearcarriers who keep insisting that they’re human too, when all I want them to do is stand there and be quiet and hold that spear. Yes, some of my initial plans have changed along the way. If they hadn’t, I would just be connecting the dots, and that would drive me mad. Some writers are architects and some are gardeners, and I am in the second camp. The tale takes on a life of its own in the writing. - SSM 2006

Question:  How different is the plot from what he originally envisioned?

GRRM: Not different - just more of it. It has grown in complexity but he likes it that way because it feels real to him. - SSM 2010

 

 

1 hour ago, Springwatch said:

There was an idea of Tyrion being in love with Arya too (iirc), but my instinct is that transferred to Shae, who might be a kind of Arya shadow, who knows? Maybe JonArya could go the same way.

 

This love triangle can take place as Arya-Jon-Gendry.

 

Edited March 8 by YeniAy_Ottoman