If Tyrion is a chimera, is his last name Lannister or Hill/Waters?

[balefired-ed]

For those unaware of what a chimera is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_chimera

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

Well, he was born in castle rock, and raised in the westerlands, so presumably hill. he does go by the pseudonym hugor hill in essos after all.

maya stone was born in the vale so we call her stone and not storm after all, so hill makes sense no mater who is father is

 

if your asking if he has two sets of DNA, like as if he actually has two fathers somehow, then yeah, Lannister should still be appropriate.

Edited March 27 by Club-foot cleft-lips
added a bit

[Castellan]

IMO Tywin would have given him most of his DNA and Aerys only the blood line. We will know when the dragons like him etc etc. Anyway Tywin always ackowledged him and he was born of Tywin's wife within their marriage.

PS in case I was unclear, his name is Lannister and he will be Lord of Casterly Rock.

Edited March 31 by Castellan

[Hippocras]

Tyrion's mother was born a Lannister. She was Tywin's cousin. Tyrion is a Lannister no matter what.

[Sandy Clegg]

3 hours ago, Castellan said:

IMO Tywin would have given him most of his DNA and Aerys only the blood line. We will know when the dragons like him etc etc. Anyway Tywin always ackowledged him and he was born of Tywin's wife within their marriage.

The rumours of Aerys 'taking liberties' with Joanna at the bedding ceremony are such a massive tease from George, and I think he wants to keep it that way. Part of the fun of Tyrion's character is the uncertainty principle of who or what he actually is. With his mismatched eyes, shifting loyalties and vague rumours of dragon blood in his veins, he represents a different kind of sphinx to that of Alleras. He'll always be a Lannister, but he might be something more. 

[Universal Sword Donor]

He's not a human chimera.

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

On 3/28/2024 at 6:23 AM, Sandy Clegg said:

The rumours of Aerys 'taking liberties' with Joanna at the bedding ceremony are such a massive tease from George, and I think he wants to keep it that way. Part of the fun of Tyrion's character is the uncertainty principle of who or what he actually is. With his mismatched eyes, shifting loyalties and vague rumours of dragon blood in his veins, he represents a different kind of sphinx to that of Alleras. He'll always be a Lannister, but he might be something more. 

but doesn't this hint more to Jamie and Cersie being Aerys' kids, not Tyrion? Tywin probably didnt let joanna visit kings landing much, I bet.

[Hippocras]

8 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

but doesn't this hint more to Jamie and Cersie being Aerys' kids, not Tyrion? Tywin probably didnt let joanna visit kings landing much, I bet.

Tywin was Hand of the King still in 272 (Tyrion's conception) and was with Joanna in KL. So this is not a matter of Joanna "visiting". She was already there.

Aerys "insulted" Joanna at the Anniversary Tourney of 272, after several years of deteriorating relations between Tywin and Aerys. The King may have paid Joanna a visit afterwards to investigate her breasts first hand. 

Anniversary Tourney - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

 

Of course, Aerys's comment about Joanna's breasts seems to imply he was familiar with them already. So Tyrion being fathered by Aerys would not exclude the possibility that Jamie and Cersei were as well. And yet - Aerys was not particularly fertile. He struggled to father children with his own wife, so that does complicate these scenarios.

Edited March 30 by Hippocras

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

3 hours ago, Hippocras said:

Tywin was Hand of the King still in 272 (Tyrion's conception) and was with Joanna in KL. So this is not a matter of Joanna "visiting". She was already there.

Aerys "insulted" Joanna at the Anniversary Tourney of 272, after several years of deteriorating relations between Tywin and Aerys. The King may have paid Joanna a visit afterwards to investigate her breasts first hand. 

Anniversary Tourney - A Wiki of Ice and Fire (westeros.org)

 

Of course, Aerys's comment about Joanna's breasts seems to imply he was familiar with them already. So Tyrion being fathered by Aerys would not exclude the possibility that Jamie and Cersei were as well. And yet - Aerys was not particularly fertile. He struggled to father children with his own wife, so that does complicate these scenarios.

But Joanna wasn't in kings landing after being dismissed as Rhealla's lady in waiting

At the wedding feast, Aerys drunkenly japed about how it was a pity the first nighttradition was banned, and he took certain "unwonted liberties" with Joanna in the bedding ritual when the men at the feast had to disrobe the bride.[9][2]

Not long thereafter, Joanna was dismissed by Queen Rhaella Targaryen from her service in King's Landing. While Rhaella turned a blind eye towards most of her husband's infidelities, she did not approve when it concerned one of her own ladies, several of whom were sent away from court. Joanna departed for Casterly Rock at once, and she seldom visited the capital afterwards.

 The World of Ice & Fire, The Targaryen Kings: Aerys II.

 

I didn't know about the tourney though. definitely makes sense timeline wise for Tyrion to be conceived then, so thank you for pointing that out to me.

I mean he definitely saw her breast at the bedding ceremony, but so did a lot of people I bet.

I also noticed while looking a the wiki timeline, Tyrion was born the same year as Aegon Targaryen son of aerys died, and his mom died, same as Lyanna stark and her maybe baby with Rheagar, whose own Aegon died soon before. so that's pretty neat.

[Hippocras]

@Club-foot cleft-lips

She was there at the anniversary tourney in 272. Tyrion was conceived in 272.

Edited March 30 by Hippocras

[Club-foot cleft-lips]

1 minute ago, Hippocras said:

@Club-foot cleft-lips

She was there at the anniversary tourney in 272. Tyrion was conceived in 272.

(?) I know? you already mentioned that, and i conceded it true? it makes total sense.

 

1 hour ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

 

I didn't know about the tourney though. definitely makes sense timeline wise for Tyrion to be conceived then, so thank you for pointing that out to me.

 

 

[Hippocras]

13 hours ago, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

(?) I know? you already mentioned that, and i conceded it true? it makes total sense.

 

 

Yes, sorry it came across a bit curt. I was just clarifying for anyone following that no matter how much or little time she spent in KL after being dismissed as a lady-in-waiting, she was nevertheless there at the key moment, making it possible (if far from confirmed) that Aerys fathered Tyrion.

[House Cambodia]

I think it's worth employing a bit of a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to Joanna's character. Her three children idolise her (the youngest of whom never knew her), but then children would. We're repeatedly told that Tywin truly loved her. That's quite interesting, given what we know of Tywin's character. I'm not saying any of this indicates whether or not she slept with Aerys, but I'm sceptical if she was the wise and gentle woman she's made out to be. For Tywin to love her, I think she must have shared his propensity and skill in conniving, manipulating and playing the game. She was a "Cercei with brains", if you will. I think Tywin was painfully aware of both that and of Jamie lacking Tywin's political skills and interest. Aunt Genna was right in saying that Tyrion was his 'father's son' - I think Tyrion was his mother's son too.

[Hippocras]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I think it's worth employing a bit of a hermeneutic of suspicion when it comes to Joanna's character. Her three children idolise her (the youngest of whom never knew her), but then children would. We're repeatedly told that Tywin truly loved her. That's quite interesting, given what we know of Tywin's character. I'm not saying any of this indicates whether or not she slept with Aerys, but I'm sceptical if she was the wise and gentle woman she's made out to be. For Tywin to love her, I think she must have shared his propensity and skill in conniving, manipulating and playing the game. She was a "Cercei with brains", if you will. I think Tywin was painfully aware of both that and of Jamie lacking Tywin's political skills and interest. Aunt Genna was right in saying that Tyrion was his 'father's son' - I think Tyrion was his mother's son too.

I agree. Something is off about the official story. Many things really, if you start branching more into Aerys's story.

1. Officially Tywin loved Joanna. We are told this, but not shown it. We know nothing of how SHE felt about HIM. How much of Tywin's "love" was related to the fact that Aerys wanted her? - ie. that she was a prize and something Tywin could have but Aerys could not - in marriage at least.

2. Joanna only had 3 children, born 6-7 years apart. Was this because Joanna and Tywin spent too much time away from each other, or was it because Tywin was impotent? Why are the births of all of her children associated with moments where Aerys overstepped, humiliated Tywin and sexualized Joanna?.

3. Aerys considered Tywin to be a servant and would not let Rhaegar marry Cersei or Jaime squire for Rhaegar. Why? Rhaegar had other squires; Myles Mooton and Richard Lonmouth. What made them less "servants" than the heir to Casterly Rock? What made Elia Martell less of a "servant" than Cersei?. Top hypothesis is that Aerys was a Targ blood snob, and anyone without any was inferior. Lonmouth and Mooton would then be implied to have Targ blood. So far there is no sign that the Lannisters had any.

4. Aerys had multiple mistresses. If he was fertile enough to father a Lannister, why did he struggle so much with Rhaella, and where are the rest of his bastards?

5. Finally, we already know that Aerys set out very frequently between 268 AC and the rebellion to put Tywin "in his place". Humiliate and undermine him. The question is, to what extent was Tywin doing the same in kind, but more subtly?

Edited March 31 by Hippocras

[Castellan]

On 3/30/2024 at 4:52 PM, Club-foot cleft-lips said:

but doesn't this hint more to Jamie and Cersie being Aerys' kids, not Tyrion? Tywin probably didnt let joanna visit kings landing much, I bet.

yes it hints but its misdirection dates and other clues point to Tyrion.