Westerosi owned Sellsword/sail companies?

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

How feasible would it be for some houses (Hornwoods, Flints, and Tullys) in Westeros to own the sellsword companies they created like the Wolfpack and the Stormbreakers. I know that it's not cannon, just wanted to know if it could be managed. The captain general could be the director of the company while the houses would own it. Also, I know many Ironborn served as Sellsails but why don't the houses or the the Greyjoys just sell their own fleet to make coin. I get that they like the "Iron price" but there had to be some lords who didn't give a shit about it like Quellon. 

[House Cambodia]

I'd say that a fair number of commanders and troops in sellsword companies are not just motivated by the salary; they want the freedom that comes with not bending the knee to some unworthy rando. A good number are likely criminals who also would be arrested by said lord.

In your specific example of the Ironborn selling themselves for cash, that is in direct contradiction to everything they've ever stood for. You pay the iron price for their services.

[Alden Rothack]

2 hours ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

How feasible would it be for some houses (Hornwoods, Flints, and Tullys) in Westeros to own the sellsword companies they created like the Wolfpack and the Stormbreakers. I know that it's not cannon, just wanted to know if it could be managed. The captain general could be the director of the company while the houses would own it. Also, I know many Ironborn served as Sellsails but why don't the houses or the the Greyjoys just sell their own fleet to make coin. I get that they like the "Iron price" but there had to be some lords who didn't give a shit about it like Quellon. 

What do the sellswords get out of it,

in the case of the ironborn they to flee home and rebuild but that doesn't appear to be the case with the sellsword companies

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

15 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

What do the sellswords get out of it,

in the case of the ironborn they to flee home and rebuild but that doesn't appear to be the case with the sellsword companies

The sellswords get paid, like they still do regardless of who owns the company. If the Ironborn do what I proposed then the ability to flee home would be only to their benefit. The sellsword companies wouldn't be able to do that regardless.

Edited April 8 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

In your specific example of the Ironborn selling themselves for cash, that is in direct contradiction to everything they've ever stood for. You pay the iron price for their services.

Except the Ironborn do have ex sellsails in their ranks. I think they would be perfectly happy to take anything they get on campaigns with the Iron price while also getting paid the gold price to do so. 

[Alden Rothack]

10 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

The sellswords get paid, like they still do regardless of who owns the company. If the Ironborn do what I proposed then the ability to flee home would be only to their benefit. The sellsword companies wouldn't be able to do that regardless.

yes thats my point, the sellswords get paid regardless so why would they allow someone else to own the company where they get nothing out of it, one of the very few good things about being a sellsword over being an armsman is not being beholden to anyone outside the company unless it is to the companies benefit to do so.

the ironborn when not led by the crazy, stupid or both are just fine with making profit, as were both of their main inspirations so they would absolutely do it if the offer was good enough

 

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

I'd say that a fair number of commanders and troops in sellsword companies are not just motivated by the salary; they want the freedom that comes with not bending the knee to some unworthy rando. A good number are likely criminals who also would be arrested by said lord.

The majority of sellswords are not exiled Westerosi criminals. Those that are would obviously avoid these companies for this very reason, however, they are not the rule, they are the exception.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

yes thats my point, the sellswords get paid regardless so why would they allow someone else to own the company where they get nothing out of it, one of the very few good things about being a sellsword over being an armsman is not being beholden to anyone outside the company unless it is to the companies benefit to do so.

My question is based on the premise of the Westerosi houses owning the companies from the creation of them. It doesn't matter what the sellswords get out of it except good pay. And even if they sail to Westeros to fight in a war for the house that owns their company, they still get paid. I'm asking if the premise is feasible. 

Edited April 8 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

It doesn't matter what the sellswords get out of it except good pay.

Well it kinda does - there's pay and there's 'pay'.

Both sellsword companies and the Ironborn go for the latter, which law-abiding Westerosi lords would likely term 'plunder'. The bulk of plunder from a defeated enemy goes to the lord/state. Private companies take it all for themselves, with the lion's share going to the commanders, but regular soldiers grab a share too - more than if they fought for a Kingdom. For the Ironborn, plunder, the iron price', is what they live for. Since their failed rebellion against Robert, they were reduced to the humiliating roles of sowing, mining, and trading - working for money. It goes against everything there are - no self-respecting Ironborn would go into the pay of an undrowned. Yes, individuals have done so, but they are exceptions.

[Alden Rothack]

4 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

My question is based on the premise of the Westerosi houses owning the companies from the creation of them. It doesn't matter what the sellswords get out of it except good pay. And even if they sail to Westeros to fight in a war for the house that owns their company, they still get paid. I'm asking if the premise is feasible. 

Well actually it does, because a one sided relationship tends to result in them showing up only to burn your house with you in it. if you want it to matter then that house owning it has to benefit the sellsword company

in fact the main difference between sellsword companies and those who recruited for the nobility was that the former did not care about anything but their own profit and the latter did

so in answer to your question its feasible only if the sellsword company benefits from the arrangement.

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

16 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Well actually it does, because a one sided relationship tends to result in them showing up only to burn your house with you in it. if you want it to matter then that house owning it has to benefit the sellsword company

in fact the main difference between sellsword companies and those who recruited for the nobility was that the former did not care about anything but their own profit and the latter did

so in answer to your question its feasible only if the sellsword company benefits from the arrangement.

Then how do the current sellsword companies benefit from the current status quo? How would it be any different except with the person who owns the company also getting a share of the profits?

[Alden Rothack]

2 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Then how do the current sellsword companies benefit from the current status quo? How would it be any different except with the person who owns the company also getting a share of the profits?

Because curently they and only profit from their efforts.

that is the difference between them and just about every fighter out there, because eeryone gets pay and plunder

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

46 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Well it kinda does - there's pay and there's 'pay'.

Both sellsword companies and the Ironborn go for the latter, which law-abiding Westerosi lords would likely term 'plunder'. The bulk of plunder from a defeated enemy goes to the lord/state. Private companies take it all for themselves, with the lion's share going to the commanders, but regular soldiers grab a share too - more than if they fought for a Kingdom. For the Ironborn, plunder, the iron price', is what they live for. Since their failed rebellion against Robert, they were reduced to the humiliating roles of sowing, mining, and trading - working for money. It goes against everything there are - no self-respecting Ironborn would go into the pay of an undrowned. Yes, individuals have done so, but they are exceptions.

When the Weserosi lords go to war do think they and their soldiers go in without looking for a way to profit? Their plunder is just named spoils of war. Private companies can operate exactly like they do currently, except the house that owns the company, not a kingdom, also gets a share. Be it plunder or the gold they agreed upon in their contracts. Such a life should be attractive to the Iron born. Getting paid to reave? And being allowed to keep what they "paid" for? Heck yeah. They can go back to the iron islands in their owns ships and be rich after retirement. Also, getting the Ironborn to do this as a whole gives the Greyjoys two things, the funds to pay taxes of substance to the iron throne which puts them in good relationship with their kings and promoting the reaving culture they are so proud of. They'd be working for gold but, they would also be reaving and gaining glory. Anyone that is not a religious extremist would see the benefit of this. 

Edited April 8 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

7 minutes ago, Alden Rothack said:

Because curently they and only profit from their efforts.

that is the difference between them and just about every fighter out there, because eeryone gets pay and plunder

Everyone would still get pay and plunder. An entity owning the company would just get a cut of the profits. Also, it would provide a structure to the company. What would happen if all/most of the high ranking officers died in battle? The company would be allowed to be built back up instead of dying out. 

[House Cambodia]

I don't really want to analyse all these threads in detail because they all amount to the same deep difference between us, so I'll make the observation once and leave it there. To really get into the author's world, you have to 'suspend your disbelief' and enter a different thought-world. Trying to reinterpret a Medieval fantasy through a 21st century capitalist economic lens is not the way I read the books.

[Alden Rothack]

12 minutes ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

Everyone would still get pay and plunder. An entity owning the company would just get a cut of the profits. Also, it would provide a structure to the company. What would happen if all/most of the high ranking officers died in battle? The company would be allowed to be built back up instead of dying out. 

the sellsword already has structure and recruitment, thats what a captain and officers do, in the absence of officers the Sargeants will do until new officers can be appointed. they aren't going to give up a chunk of their money to some lord unless the benefits are worth it

its not like now where owning a company actually gives you enforcable power over it, sellsword companies are infamous for the lack of control lords have over them even when they are nearby.

 

 

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

35 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I don't really want to analyse all these threads in detail because they all amount to the same deep difference between us, so I'll make the observation once and leave it there. To really get into the author's world, you have to 'suspend your disbelief' and enter a different thought-world. Trying to reinterpret a Medieval fantasy through a 21st century capitalist economic lens is not the way I read the books.

I’m not trying to reinterpret anything Martin wrote. I greatly enjoy the books and understand that they take place in a world based on a different time. I just proposed a premise and asked if it was possible to make a scenario like this happen at all. I’m not seeking to change or complain about what happens on the book, just ideas that I need get out of my brain and would like to discuss with some people to see how it would change the dynamics between kingdoms and lords in the books. 

Edited April 8 by KingoftheRiversandtheHills

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

I’m trying to reinterpret anything Martin wrote. I greatly enjoy the books and understand that they take place in a world based on a different time. I just proposed a premise and asked if it was possible to make a scenario like this happen at all. I’m not seeking to change or complain about what happens on the book, just ideas that I need get out of my brain and would like to discuss with some people to see how it would change the dynamics between kingdoms and lords in the books.

Sure, we can enjoy the books in different ways. I'm just saying I read the books with a different mindset to you, so discussion on these lines is probably not fruitful. In the case of this thread, maybe you could examine the model of the Wagner Group (before and after the assassination of Prigozin, its founder-commander) in terms of its military/business/political structures and see if sellsword companies contemplating establishing official and permanent relations with a Kingdom or lord can learn anything from that. I don't want to think it through myself - I'm just throwing it out there.

[astarkchoice]

There would be 0 point

None of the respectable lords would put their fleets at the command of mere merchants etc for sellsail activites or worse raiding like savages. Their fleets protect their shores ,valuable trade ports  and also like the rewyne fleet individual huge merchant fleets!

The ironborn wouldnt be opposed to raiding essos but already do that under their lords so no sellsail buisness model is needed , theyd chafe under the control of fulfilling a contract such as protecting ships etc

The ironborn make plenty of trade despite what the greyjoys say (esp cheap raw materials (esp from their slave/thrall mines) so already have enough buinsess.on top of raiding+ fishing etc for themselves to be bothered with orgainising into formal companies (and remeber.orgainising  the ironborn is like wrangling cats )

 

As for sellswords the men under each lord are either full time or hard worked part time professsionals. The full time men at arms when not guarding their lords keeps or training will patrol  the lands borders ,roads, population centres and areas of note  like a  mixed scout + police force.

The part timers will.maintain their lands so cant go

The only people who have the free time are exiled knights and lords etc. The ones who arent exiled have responsibiliies etc. Even 2nd or 3rd sons have lots to keep them busy between training, huniting,  overseeing mantaining the lands and keeps and social/political meetings etc

Edited April 8 by astarkchoice

[Nevets]

Who would they fight?  Yes, there is war going on in the main series, and there was Robert's Rebellion, but nothing really in between.  You had 15 years of peace, and not much fighting even before that.  Easier to have guardsmen for law enforcement, and peasant leavies as needed.  If you have sellswswords, there isn't enough for them to do.  Also the Crown might not appreciate their vassals having what amounts to standing armies.  That's a bit too much of an alternate power base.

Edited April 9 by Nevets