Westerosi owned Sellsword/sail companies?

[Alden Rothack]

2 hours ago, Nevets said:

Who would they fight?  Yes, there is war going on in the main series, and there was Robert's Rebellion, but nothing really in between.  You had 15 years of peace, and not much fighting even before that.  Easier to have guardsmen for law enforcement, and peasant leavies as needed.  If you have sellswswords, there isn't enough for them to do.  Also the Crown might not appreciate their vassals having what amounts to standing armies.  That's a bit too much of an alternate power base.

Honestly it isn't going to make a difference in that respect

most sellsword companies aren't large enough for the crown to care and the ones that are a single lord couldn't afford to have on retainer

[KingoftheRiversandtheHills]

11 hours ago, Nevets said:

Who would they fight?  Yes, there is war going on in the main series, and there was Robert's Rebellion, but nothing really in between.  You had 15 years of peace, and not much fighting even before that.  Easier to have guardsmen for law enforcement, and peasant leavies as needed.  If you have sellswswords, there isn't enough for them to do.  Also the Crown might not appreciate their vassals having what amounts to standing armies.  That's a bit too much of an alternate power base.

Well I wasn't really thinking for them to do anything in Westeros, fighting battles in Essos like all sell swords do. Good point about the Crown though.

[Universal Sword Donor]

9 hours ago, Alden Rothack said:

Honestly it isn't going to make a difference in that respect

most sellsword companies aren't large enough for the crown to care and the ones that are a single lord couldn't afford to have on retainer

If they are too large for a single lord, they are large enough for the crown to care about. Unemployable groups of armed men with no source of income are going to be an issue for the countryside. See Free Companies in France in the 1400s.

Conversely, if they are small enough for a lord to hire but are not hired -- there's really not a sustainable business for groups of warriors in Westeros -- you just have a bunch of smaller armed bands with no source of income. At that point they are going to become highwaymen / brigands / what have you in the vein of the Kingswood Brotherhood. The local lord will need to tamp down on that.

Either way it's not really conducive for even small groups of freeriders / mercenaries in Westeros to work unless the crown has been destabilized to a significant extent. Even then it's short term

[Aldarion]

On 4/9/2024 at 7:33 AM, Nevets said:

and peasant leavies as needed

Those levies are far from the untrained peasant mob though:

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/proof-that-westerosi-armies-are-professionals/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-1-organization-and-manpower/

https://warfantasy.wordpress.com/2023/11/09/military-of-westeros-4-conclusions-and-implications/

[SeanF]

A free company isn't a company in the modern sense, with shareholders who own it.

It's more a case of a captain, or captain-general if the company is big enough, who's acquired a reputation as a commander.  He might be a nobleman, like Federico de Moltefeltro, or a professional soldier who rose from the ranks, like Sir John Hawkwood.

Essentially, he signs a contract with a lord, or free city, to fight for a fixed term, and to bring a fixed number of cavalry and infantry.  His employer makes him a down payment, and then various stage payments, during the course of the contract.  The captain then enters into contracts with his lieutenants, to supply soldiers in turn.  They then negotiate contracts at the individual level with the serjeants, and ordinary soldiers. 

Think of it as being similar to a major building contract, today.  The main contractor sub-contracts.

[House Cambodia]

The OP is proposing a city, lord or lord paramount turn a mercenary company into a permanent standing army. It would require the province to pay a regular wage to all the ranks, not for the fixed term of a conflict, but throughout the peaceful periods. Most of us are suggesting that it is not a feasible arrangement.

[sifth]

I'm still wondering where the Brave Companions came from. Did Tywin just have them on standby or something? It would have taken them a while to get from Essos to Westeros, yet Tywin seems to be using them right from the start of the war. Was there a massive time skip between Tryion getting captured and the war starting?

[Alden Rothack]

22 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If they are too large for a single lord, they are large enough for the crown to care about. Unemployable groups of armed men with no source of income are going to be an issue for the countryside. See Free Companies in France in the 1400s.

Conversely, if they are small enough for a lord to hire but are not hired -- there's really not a sustainable business for groups of warriors in Westeros -- you just have a bunch of smaller armed bands with no source of income. At that point they are going to become highwaymen / brigands / what have you in the vein of the Kingswood Brotherhood. The local lord will need to tamp down on that.

Either way it's not really conducive for even small groups of freeriders / mercenaries in Westeros to work unless the crown has been destabilized to a significant extent. Even then it's short term

I am aware of the Free companies

small sellsword companies who are affordable by most mid-ranked lords are going to have work most of the time, either due to feuds or trade protection, gold and food alone are going to provide a lot of work

[Aldarion]

40 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The OP is proposing a city, lord or lord paramount turn a mercenary company into a permanent standing army. It would require the province to pay a regular wage to all the ranks, not for the fixed term of a conflict, but throughout the peaceful periods. Most of us are suggesting that it is not a feasible arrangement.

It is technically possible, but most lords in Westeros would not see a need for it. You would need a major permanent threat a la Ottomans for anybody to even consider it.

[astarkchoice]

14 hours ago, sifth said:

I'm still wondering where the Brave Companions came from. Did Tywin just have them on standby or something? It would have taken them a while to get from Essos to Westeros, yet Tywin seems to be using them right from the start of the war. Was there a massive time skip between Tryion getting captured and the war starting?

Well there is a gap between tyrions capture when tywin raises his host and the tullys begin to in response and then thr moubtain ravaing the riverlands, ned getting injured etc and then on to his execution...seems that could be a week or few weeks gap!

Now we know from tywin + edmure beginning to raise their hosts sellswords.+ hedge knights began to move to the potential troublespot for work (hence bronn and his buddy)

We know tyrion + the mountain commanded a 1000 man block ay green form where 700 were a mix of freeriders ,hedge knights and mounted archers (all profrssiobal hired merc )  + highly unsualy some comsripts too ..so there was clearly plenty of time for local merc muscle to gather (and clearly go for tywin than his poorer rivals)

 

The brave companions we know are essosi muscle but we know the 3 sisters are prepping  for war so good  essosi sellsword  companies may be already signed up (esp as the golden company will mysteriously not be taking any contracts this time) , we know the brave companions have a poor rep thus would be hired last by only the desperate  and finaly as a very very  small sellsword compaby they will have been far faster to travel  the whole lot by boat  than most!!

[sifth]

2 hours ago, astarkchoice said:

The brave companions we know are essosi muscle but we know the 3 sisters are prepping  for war so good  essosi sellsword  companies may be already signed up (esp as the golden company will mysteriously not be taking any contracts this time) , we know the brave companions have a poor rep thus would be hired last by only the desperate  and finaly as a very very  small sellsword compaby they will have been far faster to travel  the whole lot by boat  than most!!

It would still take a considerable amount of time for Tywin to send someone to Essos, find them, for them to except his offer and then come to Westeros. I'm thinking 3 to 6 months minimum. Unlike the show, fast travel doesn't exist in this universe, lol

Again, unless he had them on standby or something, before the war started.

The whole thing feels like a lot of work to just bring a bunch of sociopaths to his side, he had quite a few of them on hand already. You'd think he would have tried for the Golden Company, Tywin does like his gold, lol

Edited April 11 by sifth

[House Cambodia]

20 minutes ago, sifth said:

Again, unless he had them on standby or something, before the war started.

The whole thing feels like a lot of work to just bring a bunch of sociopaths to his side, he had quite a few of them on hand already. You'd think he would have tried for the Golden Company, Tywin does like his gold, lol

I think Tywin's initial strategy was to basically terrorise those parts of the countryside that might turn to alternative kings. He expected the Mountain's and Lorch's forces, supplemented by the Brave Companions would be sufficient. Nobody was anticipating Robb's rapid victories and evolution into a serious challenge. Tywin seems to have called up the BC/Bloody Mummers just prior to Robb's surprising victory in the Battle of the Camps.

That particular company was a small one and comprised of many criminal Westerosi, so they were probably in good communication with likely hirers in Westeros. Sailing from the east coast of Westeros (Maidenpool) to Pentos would take 3 days, so the 2-way communication, assemby of a force and getting across in one ship might only take a fortnight.

Edited April 11 by House Cambodia

[sifth]

10 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I think Tywin's initial strategy was to basically terrorise those parts of the countryside that might turn to alternative kings. He expected the Mountain's force, supplemented by the Brave Companions would be sufficient. Nobody was anticipating Robb's rapid victories and evolution into a serious challenge. Tywin seems to have called up the BC/Bloody Mummers after Robb's surprising victory in the Battle of the Camps.

That particular company was a small one and comprised of many criminal Westerosi, so they were probably in good communication with likely hirers in Westeros. Sailing from the east coast of Westeros (Maidenpool) to Pentos would take 3 days, so the 2-way communication, assemby of a force and getting across in one ship might only take a fortnight.

I mean it takes a great deal of time for the Golden Company to get from Essos to Westeros in ADWD. There's a 600 to 700 page gap between Jon Con's first chapter, to his second one. With the Brave Companions, Tywin would have to send a representative and that person would need to find them. Phones and text messages don't exist in this universe and raven network doesn't work in Essos. So travel time for the representative, travel time for the representative finding them and the Murmers travel time going to the west. That's a whole lot of travel time.

Edited April 11 by sifth

[astarkchoice]

48 minutes ago, sifth said:

It would still take a considerable amount of time for Tywin to send someone to Essos, find them, for them to except his offer and then come to Westeros. I'm thinking 3 to 6 months minimum. Unlike the show, fast travel doesn't exist in this universe, lol

Again, unless he had them on standby or something, before the war started.

The whole thing feels like a lot of work to just bring a bunch of sociopaths to his side, he had quite a few of them on hand already. You'd think he would have tried for the Golden Company, Tywin does like his gold, lol

If word spreads to essos that war is kicking off sellswords may already be heading there just as they sid throughout westeros to the riverlands/westerlands borders. Volantis to lannisport would  be a week or so at most, the build up period i always felt was a week or 2

Also the brave companions have a horrible rep so may have came to westeros seeking work (and/or possibly feasably seeking lords who havent heard of theit terrible rep)

 

We do know he had time to  employ the  hundreds of sellswords/hedgeknights and horse archers (would have to be professionals)  into his force and  mixed them inwith some concripts   that would later  be added to tyrions savages to create his fake weak flank! 

Indicating both tywin had a week or a few weeks inbetween tyrions capture and neds execution.

 

Yeah they would be the 'gold standard'  but we know theyd reject all offers at that stage anyway so be may have tried to ŕecruit them and failed!

Edited April 11 by astarkchoice

[House Cambodia]

12 minutes ago, sifth said:

I mean it takes a great deal of time for the Golden Company to get from Essos to Westeros in ADWD. There's a 600 to 700 page gap between Jon Con's first chapter, to his second one. With the Brave Companions, Tywin would have to send a representative and that person would need to find them. Phones and text messages don't exist in this universe and raven network doesn't work in Essos. So travel time for the representative, travel time for the representative finding them and the Murmers travel time going to the west. That's a whole lot of travel time.

The Golden Company is huge and requires a whole fleet of ships. I'm suggesting the Bloody Mummers could fit in one ship. The GC is an army preparing to invade the Kingdom; the BM are just a bunch of marauders with orders to terrorise the peasantry. And as I suggest, it might not take much time to find them as many are Westerosi scum with probably close contacts with the likes of Lorch and Clegane.

[sifth]

28 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

If word spreads to essos that war is kicking off sellswords may already be heading there just as they sid throughout westeros to the riverlands/westerlands borders. Volantis to lannisport would  be a week or so at most, the build up period i always felt was a week or 2

Also the brave companions have a horrible rep so may have came to westeros seeking work (and/or possibly feasably seeking lords who havent heard of theit terrible rep)

 

We do know he had time to  employ the  hundreds of sellswords/hedgeknights and horse archers (would have to be professionals)  into his force and  mixed them inwith some concripts   that would later  be added to tyrions savages to create his fake weak flank! 

Indicating both tywin had a week or a few weeks inbetween tyrions capture and neds execution.

 

Yeah they would be the 'gold standard'  but we know theyd reject all offers at that stage anyway so be may have tried to ŕecruit them and failed!

Now that I think of it. Jamie mentions once that Tywin sent for them.

[astarkchoice]

32 minutes ago, sifth said:

Now that I think of it. Jamie mentions once that Tywin sent for them.

Id doubt he sent for them personally or by name though, tywin doesnt seem the type  to give 2 shits tracking   the names or  exploits of every paltry lil  sellssword company.(esp given what he does with them in battle)

 

They seem.to be scrapings frlm the bottom of the sellsword barrell

Edited April 11 by astarkchoice

[House Cambodia]

33 minutes ago, astarkchoice said:

Id doubt he sent for them personally or by name though, tywin doesnt seem the type  to give 2 shits tracking   the names or  exploits of every paltry lil  sellssword company.(esp given what he does with them in battle)

 

They seem.to be scrapings frlm the bottom of the sellsword barrell

As I said, it should not be beyond the ken of Ser Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane to know them by name and reputation, and to know their commanders.

[astarkchoice]

15 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

As I said, it should not be beyond the ken of Ser Amory Lorch or Gregor Clegane to know them by name and reputation, and to know their commanders.

Yeah those sort might know of them  true

Even then they probably had a dozen or so picks above them of possible! The brave companions seem to be a  bottom of the barrrel sellsword company.

 

Edited April 11 by astarkchoice

[Moiraine Sedai]

On 4/7/2024 at 10:54 PM, KingoftheRiversandtheHills said:

How feasible would it be for some houses (Hornwoods, Flints, and Tullys) in Westeros to own the sellsword companies they created like the Wolfpack and the Stormbreakers. I know that it's not cannon, just wanted to know if it could be managed. The captain general could be the director of the company while the houses would own it. Also, I know many Ironborn served as Sellsails but why don't the houses or the the Greyjoys just sell their own fleet to make coin. I get that they like the "Iron price" but there had to be some lords who didn't give a shit about it like Quellon. 

Sellswords are freelance. Good ones can make more gold on their own. Household knights serve the needs of most houses well enough.