The Hound is a nice guy

[Ledo]

mispost

[snake]

I am of the same opinion. What's more, the Hound couldn't have known the true turn of events - Joffrey's word, backed by Sansa's, was against Arya's version.

I think it's wishful thinking. The way the boy died was terrifying and cruel. He could have done it differently. What he did here is similar to what Ser Amory Loirch and Ser Gregor Clegane did to Elia's babes. But they were just following orders as well I suppose.

Killing the boy was a nasty act but this was the customary punishment for somebody who laid a hand on a loyal blood without permission. It was so during the days of the Targaryens, at least.

Here you are wrong. It is stated in THK and by Prince Oberyn that anyone who strikes a prince of the blood should lose the offending appendage, not that they are to be killed.

[mormont]

Well I guess what I wanted to say was that Jaime's flaws are overlooked and his good points exaggerated whereas with Sandor it seems to be the opposite

In my experience, this is simply not so. Sandor has a huge and devoted following amongst fans - most of whom are very much willing to overlook his flaws and exaggerate his good points. Seriously, I would rank him as being easily above Jaime in this regard: at worst, he has about the same following. I can't count the number of times threads about how he's a 'good guy underneath' have come up over the years, here and on other boards. Look at the number of posts here addressing the issue of why he killed Mycah, just as one example. Or, as mentioned, look at the number of fanfics going around in which he finds true love etc. with a woman who sees his 'true nature'.

Well Sandor has apparently killed women and children, which I wouldn't say is worse than Jaime's attempted killing of a child (it was not through any lack of Jaime trying that Bran lived); it just happened many times. In fact Sandor's responsibility is less than Jaime's since he was ordered to kill Mycah and, although we do not know the circumstances under which he killed the other innocents, it seems likely that it was also under orders and perhaps in wartime. I don't want to say that makes it alright, but it takes more moral courage than most of us possess to say 'this is wrong' when everyone around us is doing something, particularly when doing so could endanger ourselves.

This is reaching, frankly. You might be right, but in order to make your point you've had to make many assumptions and qualifications (that Sandor only killed women and children when directly ordered, only in wartime, that it was only because he didn't have the moral courage to refuse), and none of them have any real textual support.

I disagree that Jaime could not afford to show weakness - weakness would definitely be punished one way or another but not so much that he couldn't allow himself any - but that's not the point I was making. The point is Sandor could not afford to be a nice guy lest it be interpreted as weakness, but Jaime, as heir to the Lannisters, to Tywin no less, most definitely could have been a nice guy if he'd chosen to. He chose not to.

I'm sorry, but you have failed to show that Sandor did not have a choice, still less that Jaime did. All you've done here is restate your original assertion that this was so. Sandor, once freed from Gregor's power, was free to do exactly as he chose. To be a good guy, to adhere to his own code, to make his own path if that's what he wanted. He went the other way. Was this partly a reaction to his childhood? Yes. Is that an excuse? No.

Jaime, on the other hand, was never free to choose his own path in the way Sandor was - no obligations, no service but what he chose.

This failure to acknowledge morality's claim over him is why, unlike Sandor, he has no decency and why, unlike Sandor, he shows no real remorse.

You claim that Sandor recognises morality's claim and Jaime does not? That's simply unsustainable. Both of them attempt to deny morality's claim, and both fail.

btw I don't recall ever hearing that Sandor committed rape, but could be wrong...

I would need to check the quotes, but I'm sure that Sandor at least implies that he has done so.

In any case, I'm afraid I don't think anyone has demonstrated a scintilla of moral difference between Jaime and Sandor in this thread.

[a_homeless_harpy]

The way the boy died was terrifying and cruel. He could have done it differently.

How? By giving him a painkiller before? By taking him to Cersei and Joffrey alive? Sandor is just a hired sword and he lives in ruthless times. Killing quickly and efficiently is a mercy. You have to admit that Mycah didn't die from tortures and pain. It is cruel but we've been shown far more crueler ways to die.

Here you are wrong. It is stated in THK and by Prince Oberyn that anyone who strikes a prince of the blood should lose the offending appendage, not that they are to be killed.

Mycah allegedly did far more (Joffrey's version) - he attacked Joffrey with a sword. Had he been a high born, it would have been called high treason.

Jaime, on the other hand, was never free to choose his own path in the way Sandor was.

Oh yeah? Sweet Jaime's had many opportunities. Once, he was the heir of one of the most powerful Houses in Westernos, a handsome, highly skilled young man with a great future. His problem was that he didn't know how to use his brain so he's chosen mainly using other parts of his body. Small wonder his choices were usually poor and led him to serve a mad king and sleep with his own sister.

Now compare it to Sandor - a freakishly strong boy from a relatively poor family with hideous scars, both mental and physical. A younger son, with no prospect of inheriting anything. Great set of choices: either he is a sellsword (mercenary would sound far better but what could I do...) or he is a lowlife. Or both. The peak of his career would be a hedge knight, I suppose.

[Tourmaline Dragon]

I think it's wishful thinking. The way the boy died was terrifying and cruel. He could have done it differently.

If the Hound had taken Mycah back to Cersei his death would have been absolutely horrendous. Agonising. Perhaps drawn out for hours or even days. I don’t think Sandor could have done anything differently, we know damn well he is no true knight sworn to protect the weak. He also had to look out for himself as he had to learnt to do after being burnt, to refuse an order would have, at the very least, spelt the end of his rather prestigious job.

Look at it from his mentality, death was inevitable for Mycah and the Hound is no fool, he was bound to have known this. If the Hound had sought to help Mycah he would have jeopardised his own life and station. He killed him with just ONE powerful blow by the way…the boy died quickly. For all we know he may have simply chosen to ride him down rather than hand him over to die horribly. After getting to know him better in the series it sounds like something he would do. I think he was adhering to his creed - if you cant protect yourself die and get out the way of those who can.

[snake]

The Hound killed him because that's what he liked to do. I understand you guys/gals don't think killing unarmed women and children is so bad but I just can't agree with you. I think it's terrible and I don't think the characters who do this are nice people.

But hey, different strokes for different folks I guess.

[HP Loveshaft]

Some people will just rationalize around their favorite character no matter what. The next book could open with Sandor stabbing Arya in the face, and people would still defend the guy ("Arya deserved it for killing so many people! Sandor was just doing justice...").

It's pretty odd...I never thought of Sandor at all before coming to this forum, and now I just despise the character. Go figure.

[Poobah]

But hey, different strokes for different folks I guess.

One at about neck height generally suffices.

[Markus]

In AFfC we learn that Cersei wanted Arya maimed or dead. So I would certainly not be surprised that she may have ordered Sandor to kill Mycah. On the other hand, just because Cersei wanted it done didn't make it right, legally or morally.

Whatever punishment may've been appropriate, it might arguably have been the job of Robert and perhaps Lord Darry -- whose lands it were -- and Ned as Hand of the King to determine guilt and punishment. Not Cersei's nor Sandor's, something which both of them could well have known if it were the case. One may even suspect that Cersei probably knew this pretty well and that this may have been the reason why she didn't want to let Robert decide the case and gave orders to circumvent him and the law.

In any case, if Robert, Ned and Darry would have done their presumed job correctly they shoud have come to the conclusion that Mycah was completely innocent, so that the appropriate punishment would have been to not punish him at all.

In AGOT Ned has the following to say about Mycah's death:

"That murder lies at the Hound's door, him and the cruel woman he serves."

So he seems to think that a) Cersei ordered it and that it was murder.

[Trackrunner]

btw I don't recall ever hearing that Sandor committed rape, but could be wrong...

I would need to check the quotes, but I'm sure that Sandor at least implies that he has done so.

I don't remember anything like this. In fact, I don't recall ever reading about Sandor causing or desiring prolonged physical suffering of any kind. Maybe I'm forgetting something; it's been a while since I've reread the books. But quotes would be helpful.

[Gen]

Whatever punishment may've been appropriate, it might arguably have been the job of Robert and perhaps Lord Darry -- whose lands it were -- and Ned as Hand of the King to determine guilt and punishment. Not Cersei's nor Sandor's, something which both of them could well have known if it were the case. One may even suspect that Cersei probably knew this pretty well and that this may have been the reason why she didn't want to let Robert decide the case and gave orders to circumvent him and the law.

Sure, it wasn't Sandor or Cersei's decision to make to decide what do with Mycah. But, if you are assuming that Robert wouldn't permit Mycah to be killed for supposedly attacking his "son," I think you are wrong. This is a man who ordered his best friend's daughter's innocent direwolf to be murdered to satisfy his wife. Despite his best friend begging him to do otherwise. Despite Lady having nothing to do with the whole Sansa/Joffrey/Arya/Mycah scenario. I think Robert throughout years of dealing with Cersei, of verbal abuse, not being in love with her, and unsatisfied with his lot; would have wearily permitted Mycah to be killed. The same exact way Lady was killed. Would Ned have fought it? You bet. But, what could he have done? Ned was the Hand, not the King. So, let's say Sandor had brought in Mycah. Cersei definitely would have wanted to give him a nastier death than Sandor did. But, Ned would have done Mycah in the same way he did Lady. Does that make Ned as guilty as Sandor?

Does that absolve Sandor? Not completely. Yet, he was the Lannister's dog. He didn't really have anywhere else to go. (As we can see after he left the lion's den). And you don't bite the hand that feeds you. So, if the Lannisters ordered his death, he did it.

[siyrean]

I don't remember anything like this. In fact, I don't recall ever reading about Sandor causing or desiring prolonged physical suffering of any kind. Maybe I'm forgetting something; it's been a while since I've reread the books. But quotes would be helpful.

no, there is nothing in the books showing that. he;s an encredibly effecient killer but there's no hint of torture or rape on his part.

i think there's a bit of confusion as to the point of view of Sandor fans and haters. i don't think any of us claim that he's a good person presently, but that he has the potential to become so. if you believe one rotten piece spoils the apple, that's your perogative, but i'm not about to throw out perfectly good food because it's a little damaged.

[snake]

Gen,

Comparing the young boy to a direwolf is not the same. One is just an animal while the other is a human being. Even Robert, as callous as he had become, would not have been able to order Mycah's death. Especially if he had met the boy and nothing Cersei could have said or done would have changed that.

[snake]

no, there is nothing in the books showing that. he;s an encredibly effecient killer but there's no hint of torture or rape on his part.

i think there's a bit of confusion as to the point of view of Sandor fans and haters. i don't think any of us claim that he's a good person presently, but that he has the potential to become so. if you believe one rotten piece spoils the apple, that's your perogative, but i'm not about to throw out perfectly good food because it's a little damaged.

I think he should be made to pay for all the terrible things he did. It's as simple as that. I could care less if he's sorry now. Too little, too late.

[Gen]

Gen,

Comparing the young boy to a direwolf is not the same. One is just an animal while the other is a human being. Even Robert, as callous as he had become, would not have been able to order Mycah's death. Especially if he had met the boy and nothing Cersei could have said or done would have changed that.

I'd argue otherwise. And truly, I might agree with you if wasn't for this: Ned had begged him not to kill Lady. Begged him "for the love you bore my sister" (Ned's words GoT). Robert heard it, and knew what Ned's words meant, knew he was killing Lady meant, and still permitted the direwolf to be killed. Robert talks a good talk about how much Ned means, how much Lyanna meant, and when it really matters...he turns a blind eye.

[snake]

Gen,

It's still not the same. To Robert Lady was just an animal and a dangerous one at that. If Mycah was in his presence and told his story, which would have matched Arya's, then I dare say Robert would have let him go. Now, if somehow Mycah had later been found dead I doubt Robert would have lost any sleep over it but he wouldn't have ordered the death of the boy himself. Which is why the Hound murdered him in the way he did. Cersei and the Hound knew Robert would have let him go.

[HP Loveshaft]

i don't think any of us claim that he's a good person presently

!!!

Title of thread: "The Hound is a nice guy"

[Gen]

Gen,

It's still not the same. To Robert Lady was just an animal and a dangerous one at that. If Mycah was in his presence and told his story, which would have matched Arya's, then I dare say Robert would have let him go. Now, if somehow Mycah had later been found dead I doubt Robert would have lost any sleep over it but he wouldn't have ordered the death of the boy himself. Which is why the Hound murdered him in the way he did. Cersei and the Hound knew Robert would have let him go.

Do you think that Robert would have listened to a lowborn boy and Arya over Sansa and his "son" Joffrey? After all, he doesn't listen to Arya and she has a much higher status than Mycah. And Robert saw her, and listened to her story. After all, what really is Mycah to Robert? And he is going to listen to them both and believe, when all the while Cersei is by his side telling him "he is no man or no king" if he doesn't give the boy what he deserves? In her eyes, death? Plus, he is hearing a much different story from two highborn children.

And, remember his is the same man, who sat beside his wife, and children, and told his wife that perhaps it would be better if Bran died? And his reasoning, it'd better be dead than crippled. And with Mycah's status, he truly is crippled. (After all, Cersei had his twin bastards killed and he couldn't do a thing about it). I think Robert would have had him killed, if only to avoid the kind of punishment Cersei might give him later on.

[snake]

Gen,

What did Robert give Arya with Cersei by his side demanding she be punished?

And Sansa never said anything. She didn't contradict Arya nor support Joffery.

I know you think if he would do that to Lady he would do it to Mycah but I really think you're stretching it here. In Robert's eyes Lady's just a dumb animal while Mycah, lowborn as he may be, is still a person. As for the bastards thing. I don't believe Robert ever knew.

With that I think we should just agree to disagree on this point.

[siyrean]

I think he should be made to pay for all the terrible things he did. It's as simple as that. I could care less if he's sorry now. Too little, too late.

an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. it is never too late, and if if Sandor takes up a path to redemption then he is going to have to live with the knowlege of his past crimes. he can not be redeemed with out knowing true remorse. torture and death is pointless and barbaric, it doesn't make what he's done ok, it doesn't change anything. he can't just do his time and be off on his merry way. i think we just have two very different world view points. i believe strongly in the power of forgiveness and redemption, not in vengence. but i'm not stupid either, i can see a very clear difference between Gregor and Sandor, Sandor has hope. he's now at a cross roads, if he decides to go on a killing spree in the next book, i don't think i'd be too forgiving anymore.