Mandon Moore was whose catspaw?

[jarl the climber]

In the books, at the Battle of the Blackwater, Tyrion is almost struck by one of the Antler Men that Joffrey is flinging with the trebuchets. I'm sure the author had an intention when he included this detail. I think its a subtle clue that implies Joffs guilt int attempt on Tyrions life. I do think that Joff would conceal his role in this, he has never bragged about Bran as far as we know.

[Faint]

My immediate reaction, which stayed pretty consistent over the duration of A Storm of Swords, was that it was Cersei. Oddly enough, A Feast for Crows had the dual effect of giving Cersei more motivation for the act while at the same time casting some doubt that she is the culprit because she never thinks about it. Then again, the author is notorious for having his characters fail to think on certain subjects when it's convenient for his purposes regardless of how realistic it really is (i.e., Ned's thoughts on Jon's parents).

That said, there is good evidence for the culprit being Joffrey as well. After all, he pulled a similar stunt when he tried to kill Bran. And he, too, has ample motivation for killing Tyrion. I wouldn't take the show's interpretation as cannon though, since the writers of the series have already shown a strong proclivity to pass Cersei's sins to her son. This might simply be another example of that practice.

I will say that I doubt we will ever get any more information of the matter and I'm not terribly interested either. After all, what can it matter now?

[Reginald blackfield]

Maybe, Mandon was fully aware about Jaime and Cersei's incest, so out of his own initiative he decided to betray the Lannisters and side with Stannis at the battle of the blackwater, since Tyrion was commanding the city's main defense he thought that he should be the one killed first.

[bloodsteel bitterraven]

I think it was Varys and he intended to kill Tyrion for the same reasons he killed Kevan

[BearIslander]

If we had one Varys POV chapter and one Littlefinger POV chapter, we wouldn't have a single ASOIAF mystery left...

[Stark Revenge]

Any more recent thoughts on this subject? I wouldnt rule out Varys either.

[Juli]

KG take orders from the king, regent , or hand. I think it had to be Joffrey. If it had been Cersi she could have had Pycell finsh him off with no one knowing. LF had no power to have Moore do it, and had been out of the city. Also Joffrey was the one to pick the 2 KG's to ride with Tryrion, Moore was more capable than the catspaw Joff sent after bran....but he did not expect Pod.

[complexphoenix]

I believe Joffrey and Cersei are the only non-crackpot possibilities, since Ser Mandon is a knight of the Kingsguard bound to obey them. Supposing someone else requires some conspiracy theorizing without any textual evidence to back it up.

Cersei and Joffrey both had motive. Cersei might have thought that she could dispose of Tyrion this way and it would never be traced back to her, it would be easily covered up as Tyrion simply dying in battle... but if that was the case it probably would have made more sense for her to use someone who didn't wear the obvious, easily recognizable white cloak. Mainly, if she wanted to kill Tyrion she'd have to make sure neither Jaime nor her father ever figured out it was her.

Joffrey would probably have rather ordered Tyrion executed in the public square for his general defiance, but since his mother wouldn't let him do that he had to do it on the sly. We know he is capable of sending a catspaw to do a kill job for him, as he did with the assassin he sent after Bran. So there really seem to be no holes in the supposition that it was Joffrey.

My conclusion: Cersei is possible but Joffrey is far more likely. Anything else is crackpot.

[Sweet-N-SourRobin]

Tyrion isn't JUST responsible for the death of Ser Vardis Egen. In his short visit Tyrion kicked up quite the shit storm in the Vale, including:

Embarrassing the Arryn family (making a mockery of Lysa's attempt to hold court and Bronn "fighting dirty" to win the trial by combat)

And here's the big one, one that Moore can see evidence of first hand when Tyrion comes to King's Landing:

Tyrion armed the Mountain Clans and unified them in one cause.

In modern parlance, Tyrion sold guns and ammo to terrorists, as far as the noble class (which includes Moore) is concerned. He's also got them fighting with each other instead of fighting each other, which in the past has kept them neutralized and diminished their threat to the establishment in The Vale. But fighting under a common banner? Under a man, namely Tyrion, who has made himself known as an enemy of The Vale? That's a threat to Moore's friends and family (such as he has). Heck, we readers even know Tyrion has seduced the Mountain Clans into cooperation by promising to deliver them The Vale, which of course Moore does not know about and turns out to be an empty promise anyway, but that what the nobles in The Vale are afraid of one day happening, and unified Mountain Clans make that fear a lot more real.

I can buy Moore seeing a chance to defend his homeland and trying to take it. The din of battle is an ideal situation to kill him and pass it off later as purely accidental "friendly fire" if challenged.

If Mandon Moore did act at someone else's behest, I doubt he needed much of a nudge. It's clumsy (and poorly planned) enough to be Joff (and there's the Kingsguard angle), there's enough of a Vale connection to be Littlefinger (then again maybe that eliminates LF; LF seems savvy enough to not pick someone with such an apparent connection to him). Cersei never has thoughts of regretting the plan not working or cursing Moore's memory for his failure, so she's probably out.

[jet199]

I think it would be quite funny if LF has been trying to get Tyrion killed through the whole series, starting by setting Cat on him, but failed every time. He can take over whole regions of the kingdom but can't kill one little man. I also think it would be good if LF reveals he has a weird reason for wanting Tyrion dead like he insulted him once or upset I've of his whores.

[Mithras]

/nm

[complexphoenix]

This is an excellent question. If Cersie or LF were the culprits, I agree that they would have killed Tyrion as he lay wounded. Joffrey is a good candidate because he didn't have the savvy or contacts to kill his uncle while he was recuperating. He certainly hated Tyrion enough. The scene is a lot like Bran's - except Tyrion might have had a guard or Pod around much of the time, leaving Joff no way to finish him off. But I can't find anything to support this.

I find this persuasive. Cersei could easily have had Tyrion poisoned and it would have looked like he died of his wound. Same goes for LF. So yeah, our favorite vicious idiot king is definitely the culprit...

...unless this was one of LF's "moves that make no sense" and it didn't actually matter to him whether Tyrion lived or died. If he died, LF was rid of a dangerous rival, if he lived, he'd suspect Cersei and/or Joffrey, so it would drive a wedge between Tyrion and his family and create more opportunities to sow chaos in future.

"They're both from the Vale" is weak tea, but LF might have bought off Ser Mandon with money and/or whores. Varys told Ned that he had "deep suspicions" about Mandon Moore, Preston Greenfield and Arys Oakheart.

[WildFury]

I guess it would be Joffery because..

1. He has been known to use cats-paw before too. Reference being Bran's case.
   
2. Joffery's hatred towards Tyrion has only seemed to increase with time. Latter being the only person who has been strict with him.
   
3. I guess once Tyrion lost his nose and was bed-ridden, his agony would have somehow pacified Joffery's anger and he did not try to get him killed on bed. Plus it would have become harder with Tywin around.
   
4. Who else would more likely command a kings-guard other than Joffery and Cercei?
   

I don't think it was Cercei as:

1. She never liked him much. I'll give you that. But unlike Joffery she has a base cunning. She would never have tried to get Tyrion killed, unless she was sure that Tommen and Myrcella would not come to harm if she does try.
   
2. If Cercei had indeed ordered that attack, I think she would have seen it through. It would have been easier finishing him off, once he was bed-ridden. Just a word in maester's ear and problem solved.
   
3. Cercei seemed content with the leverage she got over Tyrion by capturing Alayaya.
   

[Victor227]

Moore is described as obsessively dutiful, with no life outside of his job, by -Barristan-. When Barristan the Bold thinks that as a Kingsguard member you need to lighten up a bit, what in the world could someone like Littlefinger offer?

I'm of a mind to believe it was Joffrey. When you consider how he tried to have Bran killed, it reeks of his petty style, and he and Cersei are the only ones who can order a member of the Kingsguard to do anything, and he seems the type that wouldn't do something without an order. Anything really.

[MizasterJ]

Tyrion isn't JUST responsible for the death of Ser Vardis Egen. In his short visit Tyrion kicked up quite the shit storm in the Vale, including:

Embarrassing the Arryn family (making a mockery of Lysa's attempt to hold court and Bronn "fighting dirty" to win the trial by combat)

And here's the big one, one that Moore can see evidence of first hand when Tyrion comes to King's Landing:

Tyrion armed the Mountain Clans and unified them in one cause.

In modern parlance, Tyrion sold guns and ammo to terrorists, as far as the noble class (which includes Moore) is concerned. He's also got them fighting with each other instead of fighting each other, which in the past has kept them neutralized and diminished their threat to the establishment in The Vale. But fighting under a common banner? Under a man, namely Tyrion, who has made himself known as an enemy of The Vale? That's a threat to Moore's friends and family (such as he has). Heck, we readers even know Tyrion has seduced the Mountain Clans into cooperation by promising to deliver them The Vale, which of course Moore does not know about and turns out to be an empty promise anyway, but that what the nobles in The Vale are afraid of one day happening, and unified Mountain Clans make that fear a lot more real.

I can buy Moore seeing a chance to defend his homeland and trying to take it. The din of battle is an ideal situation to kill him and pass it off later as purely accidental "friendly fire" if challenged.

If Mandon Moore did act at someone else's behest, I doubt he needed much of a nudge. It's clumsy (and poorly planned) enough to be Joff (and there's the Kingsguard angle), there's enough of a Vale connection to be Littlefinger (then again maybe that eliminates LF; LF seems savvy enough to not pick someone with such an apparent connection to him). Cersei never has thoughts of regretting the plan not working or cursing Moore's memory for his failure, so she's probably out.

Over whelming evidence supporting LF as the culprit.This along with the evidence I provided in a previous quote is more than enough to win my vote

[Mithras]

“The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.”

LF sounds like he has more than one sample to come up with this idea. Even a man like him suggests that his former sample was of noble birth as the Kettleblacks were originally sellswords. All these comply well with Mandon Moore being his man.

[FittleLinger]

“The lads are far too treacherous to be part of any such scheme . . . and Osmund has become especially unreliable since he joined the Kingsguard. That white cloak does things to a man, I find. Even a man like him.”

LF sounds like he has more than one sample to come up with this idea. Even a man like him suggests that his former sample was of noble birth as the Kettleblacks were originally sellswords. All these comply well with Mandon Moore being his man.

It could also be interpreted as that he lost influence over Moore since he joined the Kingsguard, if Moore is indeed the man LF is referring to.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Tyrion tells us that Boros and Meryn were Cersei's and Osmund became Cersei's...

He remembered now. The bridge of boats, Ser Mandon Moore, a hand, a sword coming at his face. If I had not pulled back, that cut would have taken off the top of my head. Jaime had always said that Ser Mandon was the most dangerous of the Kingsguard, because his dead empty eyes gave no hint to his intentions. I should never have trusted any of them. He'd known that Ser Meryn and Ser Boros were his sister's, and Ser Osmund later, but he had let himself believe that the others were not wholly lost to honor. Cersei must have paid him to see that I never came back from the battle. Why else? I never did Ser Mandon any harm that I know of. Tyrion touched his face, plucking at the proud flesh with blunt thick fingers. Another gift from my sweet sister.

Tyrion XV, Clash

But we learn later that Osmund had been Petyr's...

"There's a clever girl." He smiled, his thin lips bright red from the pomegranate seeds. "When the Imp sent off her guards, the queen had Ser Lancel hire sellswords for her. Lancel found her the Kettleblacks, which delighted your little lord husband, since the lads were in his pay through his man Bronn." He chuckled. "But it was me who told Oswell to get his sons to King's Landing when I learned that Bronn was looking for swords. Three hidden daggers, Alayne, now perfectly placed."

Sansa VI, Storm

The way the George has Tyrion consider Osmund becoming Cersei's when considering Mandon's loyalty and then revealing that Osmund was Petyr's makes me think this was was a very subtle hint that Mandon was Petyr's.

[CaptainTheo]

My money's on Petyr. Mandon may have been his man and he made other attempts to get rid of Tyrion.

I don't think Mandon did it of his own accord as it would be very much going against what a Kingsguard is supposed to do (unless ordered to do so), and it would diminish the king's chance of surviving the battle. I think Cersei is unlikely given Tommen's status as a hostage.

Joffrey is possible as he's certainly stupid enough to do something like that and Tyrion had struck him, and it is hinted at in the show, although he seemed to be enjoying himself, flinging antler men, during the Battle of Blackwater. It is also possible that Petyr encouraged Joffrey to give Mandon such an order.

I think it possible that Petyr may have also have encouraged Joffrey to behead Ned, but not to send the assassin against Bran, because Petyr did not go to Winterfell.

[Ser_bdeye]

I don't know if anyone suggested this, but I think Ser Mandon wasn't anyone's catspaw. I don't put it above GRRM to miss lead everyone into thinking there is a big scheme behind things, when in actuality it's just as it seems.

Everyone forgets the first thing Tyrion did when he got go King's Landing was treating Ser Mandon to get inside the small council room. Tyrion also let's Mandon know be killed Ser Vargos. Being that both Ser Mandon and Ser Vargos both are high ranking knights from the Vale, it's not unlikely that they knew each other.

Ser Mandon probably just wanted revenge on the person who killed his friend. Remember Jamie says Mandon is very dangerous, because of his emotionless face. So when Tyrion made the treat and reveals he killed his friend he probably took it deeply to heart. I wouldn't be surprised if he was plotting to kill Tyrion from that very moment. He was just waiting for the perfect opportunity, which came in the form of the battle of Blackwater.

I would love to hear what everyone thinks of my theory, thanks!!!!!