Mandon Moore was whose catspaw?

[Demonic Weasel]

Yes I doubt it. The only thing we have is Littlefinger's word. Besides the fact that he's not the most truthful of men, there is, as yet, no concrete reason for Petyr Baelish to have killed Joffrey Baratheon.

We've been given the clue that the hairnet contained poison, but that has not been confirmed. Strongly suggested. In the end, it will probably turn out that I'm wrong over this, but I find the scenario that we're given has just too many niggling inconsistencies to be satisfying.

[Jon Targaryen]

We've been given the clue that the hairnet contained poison, but that has not been confirmed. Strongly suggested.

I guess that depends on your definition of the words "confirmed" and "suggested." Joffrey was poisoned with the strangler. The stones in the hairnet look the same as the crystals Cressen used in his assassination attempt. Dontos says the hairnet is magic, justice and vengeance. The ghost of high heart sees a maid at a feast with "purple sepernts in her hair" dripping venom. The queen of thorns messes with Sansa's hairnet. And a stone is missing in the end.

I'm convinced.

[A wilding]

I always suspected that the QoT knew about Joffrey's nature before she ever asked Sansa about it. Sansa confirmed it, but it was as much a test of Sansa's nature as it was an inquiry about Joff.

...

Lady Oleanna is similarly testing Sansa's willingness to tell things truly, and by getting Sansa to share such a dangerous "secret" she is building a bond between Sansa and the Tyrells.

Definitely a possibility.

However, my guesses are that the QoT thinks Sansa accidentally let slip the Willas/Sansa plan to the Lannisters (which in a way she did), and that on balance it was probably Littlefinger behind Ser Mandon (I have to admit Joffrey as an outside possibility though).

DW: I am struggling to see what you are arguing here. Why do you imagine that the QoT and Margaery made the effort to find out that Sansa was terrified of Joffrey, and that Sansa considered him a "monster", and evil and cruel? Why did Margaery so casually dismiss Sansa's later warning that she mustn't marry Joffrey on the grounds that Loras will protect her, a nonsense that even Sansa sees though? Do you think that Littlefinger was lying about having had a hand in Joffrey's death?

[Antonius Pius]

I guess that depends on your definition of the words "confirmed" and "suggested." Joffrey was poisoned with the strangler. The stones in the hairnet look the same as the crystals Cressen used in his assassination attempt. Dontos says the hairnet is magic, justice and vengeance. The ghost of high heart sees a maid at a feast with "purple sepernts in her hair" dripping venom. The queen of thorns messes with Sansa's hairnet. And a stone is missing in the end.

Seems quite conclusive to me too.

[MTGAP]

I don't think it was Cersei because she never thought about it. Similarly I don't think it was Littlefinger as he would have boasted about the scheme to Sansa.

He doesn't tell Sansa everything he does. In fact, he's only told her that one thing, about her marrying Harry. Even if he DID boast a lot to Sansa, why would he boast about a plan that failed?

My guess is, it was LF. Nobody else really makes sense.

[Ser Greguh]

Yes I doubt it. The only thing we have is Littlefinger's word. Besides the fact that he's not the most truthful of men, there is, as yet, no concrete reason for Petyr Baelish to have killed Joffrey Baratheon.

Sigh. The "Why did LF do it" discussion has been done many times, but I'll give a quick rundown of my thoughts:

1) Having the predictable Cersei in power (via the tractable Tommen) is much better for LF than the unpredictable Joff, particularly when LF is planning to go to the Vale where he'll be unable to whisper into Joff's ear.

2) It provides him with an opportunity to take Tyrion down, something he's been gunning at the whole series (remember, it was Tyrion he implicated to Catelyn). He hired the jousting dwarves specifically to bring Tyrion into public conflict with Joff just before Joff was poisoned and made a calculated gamble that the murder would be pinned on Tyrion.

3) Favor with the Tyrells. Oleanna owes him one.

4) It's a concrete way to get Sansa in his charge with no obvious recourse for her to leave, without making it seem too much like a kidnapping.

None of those may be rock solid on their own but when combined, they're worth the expense and (minimal) risk.

We've been given the clue that the hairnet contained poison, but that has not been confirmed. Strongly suggested. In the end, it will probably turn out that I'm wrong over this, but I find the scenario that we're given has just too many niggling inconsistencies to be satisfying.

If the poison wasn't in the hairnet, why does LF know about how Oleanna straightened out her hair? Why is there a stone missing as Sansa is making her escape? (something she specifically notices). Why do we have a prophecy from the Ghost of High Heart about "a maid at a feast with purple serpents in her hair, venom dripping from their fangs"? That's a lot more than a "clue" - if that's not confirmation, I don't know what you want.

[Demonic Weasel]

I have not denied and I will not deny that the Tyrell/Littlefinger assassination idea is probably the truth and that I'm wrong. There are a few points about the whole thing that seem to be more than passing odd.

To start with, Petyr's motive; I'll agree that Tommen is tractable, but I'm not really certain that that's a great thing for Petyr Baelish. Cersei herself learned that, that sword swings both ways. But, I'll accept the basic premise, Tommen is tractable. Cersei's utterly predictable? Perhaps it's predictable that she won't negotiate in good faith, but I had a hard time predicting what a number of her moves would be in AFfC simply because they were so very, randomly stupid. And is Joff really that unpredictable? He seems to be a fairly straightforward case to me, not even considering the fact that Petyr Baelish has demonstrated more than once that he knows how to operate through Joffrey Baratheon.

So, I really don't see much of a motive there. I also find it doubtful that the best he would come up with to get Sansa would be to stage an assassination for little gain.

As for Tyrion, he doesn't need to kill a king he's adept at handling to get rid of the dwarf. Tyrion's destroying himself rather amply with his uncontrollable temper and big mouth. It helps, of course, that most people are determined to mis-interpert what he does or says. The way things were going, however, Tyrion wouldn't be lasting long anyway.

Oh, and as a note, if we're accepting Littlefinger's thesis, shouldn't we also accept his claim about chaos being a good operating ground? He certainly made use of it during the War of the Five Kings. Wouldn't Joff's unpredictability and despotism make for more chaos in the long run than Cersei and Tommen the Tractable?

And then there are those dammed Tyrell's. Their motive really makes relatively little sense. Olenna and Margaery between them decide that Joffrey Baratheon must die based on some rumors from the stables and furthermore decide to trust a member of the small council who's known for getting by off of Joff. Very logical.

Despite all of this, I can't explain away the hairnet, Dontos, or any number of other sordid facts, and that's why I concede that these inconsistencies probably don't justify my doubt in the whole scenario.

[RWHamel]

First off, I don't believe that Littlefinger is an agent of any other. I think Littlefinger works for Littlefinger. I think logically he is the most likely person behind Tyrion's assassination attempts. Tyrion proved himself to be quite capable in playing the game of thrones in ACoK, and therefore a threat to Littlefinger. As long as Tyrion lives, peace and order could break out. Whith him dead, then the type of chaos that Littlefinger enjoys will naturally happen under Joffrey and/or Cersei.

Based on what he said in AFfC, he expected Cersei to begger the kingdom, but not quite so fast. It must of been quite vexing for Cersei to be even more incompetent than he expected. This statement seems to imply that he expected Tywin to be out of the way also. I conclude he was planning on getting rid of him too.

As for the Tyrells, I think they were convenient at the moment, but I doubt there is any lasting arrangement there, in fact I expect there to be a lot of animosity between the QOT and Littlefinger. It will be interesting to see the reaction if the have to interact in the future.

[alguien]

I'm sorry, but why couldn't it have been Varys?

The plan to have Tyrion support Dany's cause could have been hatched after the botched attempt. Varys is nothing if not flexible.

Not only that, but Tyrion himself says, "You tried your best to have me killed," (or some such thing). I always thought that was in reference to Mandon Moore.

[Marsala]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1286658' date='Mar 24 2008, 17.55']I'm sorry, but why couldn't it have been Varys?

The plan to have Tyrion support Dany's cause could have been hatched after the botched attempt. Varys is nothing if not flexible.[/quote]
Varys had no motive at all for trying to kill Tyrion then.
[quote]Not only that, but Tyrion himself says, "You tried your best to have me killed," (or some such thing). I always thought that was in reference to Mandon Moore.[/quote]
I think Tyrion meant Varys's testimony at the trial, which was the most damaging of all the witnesses save perhaps Shae (who was also probably coached by Varys).

[Black Wizard]

I think it was most likely Cersei. She'd always hated him and was furious the way he was interfering in the council.

[The Adequate Jon]

Varys suggests that Moore was acting for Joffrey. In Tyrion's 2nd chapter in ASOS, Varys is talking about Moore: (Paraphrasing) In many ways, Moore was the perfect member of the kingsguard. He would obey the king's orders without question and keep his mouth shut. Of course, Varys says this in the middle of a long monologue about Moore, so Tyrion doesn't pick up on it.

[DocBean]

I think people are giving Littlefinger WAY too much credit.

he may have been behind killing Aryyn, (however, there is even some debate to that) but that doesn't mean he is in control of everything.
He was nowhere close to the battle, and had even left Kings Landing before Stannis began to move against Kings Landing.

I think Moore was much more loyal to Joff and to Cersei, so I'd suspect either of them.
I can't see Littlefinger telling Moore (someone so close to a rabid king Joff) to kill Tyrion if givin the opportunity.
If Joff found out that Littlefinger wanted to kill his uncle he'd probably have Littlefinger killed just for the slight to his house.

Littlefinger would not have wanted Sansa to marry Joff, so he had probably been plotting the murder of Joff earlier.
He needs Sansa to win the North, and loves her because she reminds him of Cat.

With all that said, he does have something against Tyrion, but I'm not sure what.
He framed Tyrion for the attempted murder of Bran, and we don't know why.

I'm thinking
1. Joffrey - but how will we ever know. Maybe we won't.
2. Cersei - although she did have other opportunities and didn't take them.
3. Moore acted alone
4. Littlefinger - because he wants Tyrion dead for some unknown reason.

[DocBean]

...... I just thought of something.

Is it possible that Littlefinger didn't try to kill Joffrey at all?
maybe the hairnet was meant to kill Tyrion.

When I read the whole Joffrey dies chapter, my thought was wow Tyrion lucked out there was poison in his pie!!!.
then GRRM points out in many later chapters that the poison was in the Wine.

...or was it. Littlefinger tried to place Bran's attempted murder on Tyrion, people believe he set up Moore to kill him.
maybe he planned to poison the Imp.


granted, I don't believe any of this. just thought i'd throw it out there.

[Ser Greguh]

[quote name='DocBean' post='1288071' date='Mar 25 2008, 16.04']...... I just thought of something.

Is it possible that Littlefinger didn't try to kill Joffrey at all?
maybe the hairnet was meant to kill Tyrion.

When I read the whole Joffrey dies chapter, my thought was wow Tyrion lucked out there was poison in his pie!!!.
then GRRM points out in many later chapters that the poison was in the Wine.

...or was it. Littlefinger tried to place Bran's attempted murder on Tyrion, people believe he set up Moore to kill him.
maybe he planned to poison the Imp.


granted, I don't believe any of this. just thought i'd throw it out there.[/quote]
Cue Nightflyer in 5, 4, 3 ...

No, the poison was not in the pie. We know from ACoK that the Strangler, the poison used, is a crystal that dissolves in wine. The notion of a crystal dissolving in a pie makes no sense. The notion of planting a crystal into a specific slice of pie makes no sense. And even if we assume it would work, unless one knew exactly what slice of pie was going to Tyrion, and could thus plant it beforehand, there was no opportunity to slip the poison into the pie. Towards the end of a feast with 77 courses planned, there would be no reasonable expectation that Tyrion would eat his pie. Nobody would go to the trouble to obtain a rare and expensive poison only to spend it on such a flawed plan, least of all the ingenious Littlefinger. Moreover, there's no reason whatsoever for him to hire the jousting dwarves, an obvious ploy to bring Tyrion and Joffrey into public conflict, and then kill Tyrion off immediately after.

Of course Littlefinger has been gunning after Tyrion for practically the whole series, and in fact he was gunning for him at the Purple Wedding. However, as with his little lie to Catelyn, the plan was not to kill him right out, but rather to pin the blame on him for a crime he didn't commit. That's what the jousting dwarves were about. He knew that, particularly after Tyrion was brought into conflict with Joffrey, followed by Joffrey's death, that the blame for the regicide would fall onto Tyrion.

[Phobos]

Have there been any thoughts of Tywin orchestrating the plot to not only kill Tyrion, but Joff as well?

He hated the way that Joff was acting and could have easily have made the plans himself with the Tyrells.

Also, he kept sending Tyrion into deadly situations where he was sure to be over run (guarding the left side during the one battle) and the little bugger kept coming out alive.

It is a long shot, but it seems to fit. Tywin had access to all of the same people that Joff did and would be more influential than a 13 year old boy, even though the boy was King.

[Fireball07]

Have there been any thoughts of Tywin orchestrating the plot to not only kill Tyrion, but Joff as well?

He hated the way that Joff was acting and could have easily have made the plans himself with the Tyrells.

Also, he kept sending Tyrion into deadly situations where he was sure to be over run (guarding the left side during the one battle) and the little bugger kept coming out alive.

It is a long shot, but it seems to fit. Tywin had access to all of the same people that Joff did and would be more influential than a 13 year old boy, even though the boy was King.

I can't see it tbh. Tywin may have not have liked either but they were his blood and he seemed to do everything for House Lannister. He could easily have killed Tyrion other times in his life but didn't, but he did half-trust Tyrion and involve him in his plans. And he seemed slightly surprised at Joffrey's behaviour but that doesn't mean he wants to kill him.

[Talleyrand]

I've always had a theory that Shagga is a mastermind behind everything and is actually Aegon

[tuthmoses]

Do we know, or think we know, who had Mandon Moore try to kill Tyrion on the Blackwater? (Does this, like everything else, trace back to LF?) And what was the motivation exactly?

Whoever it was, I assume they didn't bother to finish the job after the battle b/c Tyrion had lost so much power by then that the would-be killer's purpose had been served. Correct?

Thanks for any light you can shed.

-TSOEA

Littlefinger's plots don't seem to fail so it was probably cersei

[Lady Winter Rose]

But we knew, that the whole Baelish-Tyrell-poisoning-plot was already made, when Littlefinger came back to KL in the end of ACoK. Therefore there's a certain possibility that he was not behind Ser Mandon. Although I'm quite convinced that Moore was Petyr's man.

I think Sansa was first scapegoat (net), but plan obviously changed when she loose safety nest. Place where she will be safe and rewarded if she come like heroine who kill evil bastard. Court of her brother, King Robb. It become hard to try to convince her to kill Joffrey if she hasn't insurance that she will not be beheaded.

With Tyrion alive... Well, it is easily to convince Queen, folk of King's Landing, Grand Maester Pycelle, Lord Hand...entire population who believes in story about Monster Tyrion Lannister. Brienne even said "if half story about Imp are true, he is the worst of Lannisters". Ideal scapegoat.