WoW - continued

[PhelanArcetus]

Honestly, the greatest complaint I hear from the best pally tank I know is against other paladins. The ones who refuse to learn how paladin tanking actually functions. Because he knows what he's doing. He has successfully tanked Gruul. In that the raid was failing, then they got him to sign on (in the middle of an online D&D session) and take over for the allied guild's warrior MT, and boom, success. He tanks Nightbane (who fears) without the benefit of a dwarf or draenei priest to Fear Ward. (That's a real pain, as he has to play tricks like using Divine Shield and immediately canceling it to break fear, and this puts a serious limit on how many fears he can handle; three with BoP, DS, and the PvP trinket.) He is seriously geared, seriously talented, and more than willing to tank anything. In fact, when it comes to zerging instances (anything non-heroic gets zerged by his people), he can trivially out-do my capabilities because he can hold aggro easily on multiple pulls of mobs at once.

Our guild's resident paladin tank is, however, nowhere near as skilled.

Since there are still some resist fights, it can be very rough on druids tanking those; Blizzard has made craftable plate resist gear available, but has not made leather resist for frost or nature. That makes Hydross a no-no for druid tanks, because decking out in greens of Nature or Frost Protection just won't work out well; too much loss of avoidance and threat.

Ret will be getting its buffs in 2.3, whenever that is, Prot will have to wait, it seems. And Holy really doesn't need it.

Hit Kara sans two regulars last night. Picked up a newly-returned-to-the-game priest from our guild and a resto shaman from some other guild, and things went mostly well. Despite a late start, we made good time to Aran, but then we started having issues. Frankly, the built-in voice chat was seriously a problem; before I went through some adjustments on the system, not the game, I couldn't make out half of what was being said and ended up charging while one person was still outside the room, though we'd been standing there a couple of minutes. Hell, we did good for 9 people... better than the next two goes, where he came inside, but was using his shaman instead of his rogue... and despite being elemental and on interrupt duty, being in melee range. Aran ended up eating nearly an hour of our time, which is just flat out retarded. And Prince... well, he's a big jerk, with his infernals and all. Frankly, if I had brought up shield wall a couple seconds earlier on the second go, we would have downed him. Just 2-3 more seconds before he ran loose would have done it. We ended up calling it a night with him still alive.

[RaceBannon42]

Prince is a dick.

No call on the computer last night. I'm hoping they get it done today, so I can pick it up and install everything tonight.

I should have backed up my add ons... pain in the ass to remember which ones i need. Especially the ones that don't stand out on the screen.

[Relic]

the Prince fight is horse shit. Its all based on luck. if the infernals had a predictable pattern he'd be the easiest boss in Kara.

[Stego]

In fact, when it comes to zerging instances (anything non-heroic gets zerged by his people), he can trivially out-do my capabilities because he can hold aggro easily on multiple pulls of mobs at once.

This takes practice.

I could, at one point, hold 5-6 with no problem whatsoever, even in heroic. But then I took a long break from heroic tanking and just tanked raids and PVP'd on off days. (I'm exalted with everyone, and I only do instances to help others at this point. Not even much challenge left, personally.)

But after this break, I found it took a bit to get my multi-mob mojo back. Tab sunder/revenge/shield slam, TC TC TC TC! DS, and CS (Gives threat, btw!) makes it easy. Tab through again and again, while taunting and saving the shield slam for the skull mob. By the time skull is down, you fucking own the other mobs, and a fury warrior couldn't steal em. (Unless he's hitting the wrong ones!)

Warrior tanking is the best because it has the most options, IMO. Some classes do things better, like Pally on multiples, but a talented warrior can tank anything in the game, and he has the tools for it, even if, in some cases, a Pally or Drood ARE better. And yes, they certainly *are* better in many instances.

[Mister Manticore]

My point is that most people already know what the state of pally tanking is at the moment. What should be, and what is are two very different things.

Most people just starting the game, or most people who have played the game from the start? Me, I can see now how Paladin tanks are believed to have a problem, but when I first started playing the game earlier this year, I had no clue.

While the lack of proper end game itemisations and raid encounters tuned to handle pally main tanks should be addressed as long as blizzard is maintaning that a paladin should have the option to tank as its hybrid calling, the fact remains that this is not the case. So, people can keep on bitching, and by the time Wrath of the Lich king comes out, this may possiblt be addressed. Or they can be one of the strongest healers in the game, or they can reroll to something that can main tank, as is their desire to do.

So, they should compromise themselves, and just let themselves get screwed?

I'm sorry, but no. I think if you have a problem, you should express it, and while doing so should be done in a careful, non-offensive manner, it's still not wrong to say you have a problem.

Reminds me of an episode of Las Vegas I saw last week. The new owner of the Montecito came in, in cognito, and asked about a reservation. Wasn't in the computer (which I'm sure was the point). The person at the desk told him to go elsewhere. That sort of thing pissed him off. Or that scene in Pretty Woman where Julia Roberts goes into the Dress shop...

Or there's the classic tale about the slovenly looking man who goes into the fancy car dealership, doesn't get helped, goes over to another dealership, pulls out wads of cash and buys a car right there.

Now, of course, I know you're not Blizzard, and you have no official role in the process at all, but I'm bringing this up, because the real problem, is of course, Blizzards, for not fixing the problem.

Silence doesn't work. If people are going to stop complaining, and the game isn't fun for them otherwise, I think they should just go elsewhere. That's what I'd do anyway.

As it stands most pally tanks are probbaly just gonna keep bitching.

Well, there's always the hope that Blizzard will get its head out of its collective ass. May be pie in the sky, but we can dream.

*Disclaimer: I am not as bitter about this as this post and previous ones make it sound. Its just something to discuss

Unfortunately, it is a bitter situation, compounded by it simply not being fixed. But instead, mocked by others. This leads, of course, to resentment, and furthering the complaints, not resolving them.

Me, I understand why people complain. They have a problem. I even understand why people complain about the complaints. They don't want to hear about the problems. But I think this reflects a lack of empathy on their parts.

But then, that kind of empathy can be hard. I know I've failed some times myself. Oh well, life's a bitch sometimes.

[Relic]

MM - actually - no. If yer rollin a Pally with the intent on tanking raids in the current game environment, you should do so with the knowledge that you'll probably be asked to respec and heal. Holy is your raid spec anyway. Blizzard doesnt really support fury and arms wars, Moonkin, Enhancement Shammies, and so on in raids. That's just how it is right now. Why complain bout it when the game is designed to be that way? I got a full set of tanking gear on my Pally. But when we need a tank i use my druid (or will once i xfer him over to the server we've re-located to.)

And what the hell does empathy have to do with people complaining about their chosen spec in a videogame?? If you dont like it or arent having fun - dont play. Im big on empathy...but ive no clue what that has to do with this. At all. If anyone should be empathetic it would be Blizzard, not the people forced to listen to someone complain bout their spec. The WoW forums are full of that, if you want sympathy n support.

[RaceBannon42]

Well, not that I get a chance to raid much, I've been to Gruul's, TK, and SSC one time each... but Enhancement is a viable raid spec. Certainly we have our issues, but most raids are happy to have one of us in the melee group. I certainly don't think we are in high demand, but we aren't as bad off as Ret Pallies. Heroics are a different matter. Lack of CC hurts our desirablity there.

Also was checking out Gankbang. I'm #9 in AP for horde Shaman's on my server. My gear doesn't totally suck! I've been comparing myself to the other Enhancement Shaman in our Raid and thought I must suck, but He's #1 on the server.

[Relic]

Well, not that I get a chance to raid much, I've been to Gruul's, TK, and SSC one time each... but Enhancement is a viable raid spec. Certainly we have our issues, but most raids are happy to have one of us in the melee group. I certainly don't think we are in high demand, but we aren't as bad off as Ret Pallies. Heroics are a different matter. Lack of CC hurts our desirablity there.

true true. i should have said not AS viable. you dont see as many enhancement shammies as resto in 25 mans. maybe one or two in the dps grps for windfury

[PhelanArcetus]

We actually had one shaman of each spec for most of Kara last night. Our regular enhancement, our rogue figured he'd swap out for his elemental shaman (when he decided that, we were short on healing at least temporarily, with one regular priest at work and the other running late, one replacement... then we replaced our also at work feral druid with a resto shaman), and our PuG for the night was resto. It was silly.

Paladins cover multi-mob automatically, at least. Consecrate and Holy Shield (and Ret aura, I suppose, sometimes) easily get multi-target aggro, so they just don't need to worry about that aspect. Add in some overgeared/skilled healers in his guild, and he can basically tank 8-10 guys with ease in a normal mode. That's also how he solos, grabs as much as he dares and tanks it. I recall him complaining that he couldn't gather 10 of the guards at Deaths' Door because some reset before he got the last of them... and he's upgraded gear since then.

I still have too many aggro-happy fools to even consider overpulling in a heroic, but normally works out fine in normal mode... assuming I didn't have to or choose to degear to compensate for rage starvation. I recall doing normal 5-mans in my block value gear, just because I could. And that's not even crit-immune, but the shield slams are quite nice.

[Mister Manticore]

MM - actually - no. If yer rollin a Pally with the intent on tanking raids in the current game environment, you should do so with the knowledge that you'll probably be asked to respec and heal. Holy is your raid spec anyway. Blizzard doesnt really support fury and arms wars, Moonkin, Enhancement Shammies, and so on in raids. That's just how it is right now

Do you think I am disputing this existing condition? If so, then I must say, I don't know where you're getting that impression. I am not disagreeing with that at all. It is a problem in the game. There are disparities that exist.

Some are good and expected. Some are not.

. Why complain bout it when the game is designed to be that way?

That last sentence, I think shows the problem of a different comprehension here. You're presuming the game is designed to be that way, but the thing is, it's not the way the game is presented, or even if it were, the way it should be designed. Frankly, I don't believe that the game is designed to be that way, otherwise the various talent schools wouldn't exist. It's merely the way the game exists. But that's not the same at all. It just means the design is poorly implemented.

Sorry, but if Blizzard is going to offer the flexibility of picking our own talents and abilities, they have the responsibility of following through and developing further. Do things have to be equal? No. But there should not be such a great disparity that certain classes are relegated to the useless pile.

Let's take the Epic Tier sets. I'll give an example. Shadow Priests. They're completely unlike most Holy and Discipline Priests. They even have an ability that is both practically required and exclusionary to a wide set of their abilities. If Blizzard only made Epic sets that made buffs for Holy Spells...then it would be their fault as the provider of a flawed service, not mine as a customer trying to make use of what is portrayed as a valid option. Now if I were complaining that I was squishy and soft, and couldn't tank the raid boss....then your position of "That's not the way the game is designed" would indeed be an accurate response.

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how you can say that the game isn't designed to offer flexibility and choice. There are three talent pools for each class, each of which offers some abilities. Some may be substandard, or not useful in all circumstances (say, PVP abilities versus raid ones), but none should be completely and utterly without any viability whatsoever. That's not good. If I wanted to play a game where I was locked into a particular and narrow field, I'd go back to the earlier editions of D&D.

And what the hell does empathy have to do with people complaining about their chosen spec in a videogame??

Quite a lot. The first person says X. A second person's reaction reflects your empathy, as they are recognizing the first person's emotions, thoughts and moods, and acting accordingly to it.

Perhaps you should go back to Ghost of Nymeria's initial post though. It's 645 I think.

If you dont like it or arent having fun - dont play.

This, of course, potentially reflects a lack of empathy. Not always. There are times where somebody just isn't interested in something. Fair enough. However, there are times where you are interested, but the something you're getting isn't up what you want.

I'll give an example with food. There are foods I don't like, such as shrimp. I don't order them. I do like hamburgers. I won't order shrimp. If I order a hamburger, and it tastes horrid, I'll say so.

Is this wrong of me?

I don't think so.

Im big on empathy...but ive no clue what that has to do with this. At all. If anyone should be empathetic it would be Blizzard, not the people forced to listen to someone complain bout their spec. The WoW forums are full of that, if you want sympathy n support.

I certainly agree that the primary, even ultimate responsibility for dealing with the situation is Blizzards, but that's not what we're talking about it. Which is reacting to the complaints, such as Paladins not being a viable tank at all. There are times where a complaint is invalid, this isn't one of them. However, a person who reacts to a complaint or problem with an automatic sneer of condescension, perhaps with a remark like "L2P Noob" is hardly going to come across as empathetic. It's certainly not going to come across as helpful, but rather dismissive. Nobody likes that. Yet, I don't think you can deny it's all too common. Beyond that, there's what I see as your problem, where you seem to be confusing the way the game is, with the way it should be. A mage not able to start tanking? Fine. A paladin not being able? Not so fine.

I can certainly understand that you might find the complaints tiresome, or have a problem that there are certainly complaints which aren't valid at all. However, I don't feel that this can apply to Paladins. They do have a talent tree called Protection. It offers talents clearly geared towards tanking. Thus, I don't get why you are claiming this isn't something to complain about. Now if you're going to disagree and say that "But Paladins can tank effectively" that would be a different response entirely. But that's not been what I've seen here.

It's like buying a an SUV which the auto maker presents as being rugged and suitable for towing a heavy load, but finding they don't offer an adequate tow package and your response is "QQ, go buy a tractor trailer" instead of noticing that it is indeed, the manufacturer's fault for a poor design.

That response may be appropriate for say, moving a house. Not for moving a boat.

And in the case of a game, not everything that needs to be moved should be a house. Don't you think?

(Of course, the situations aren't quite that simple, but analogies are often poor like that)

[Stego]

Race, you're more than viable.

Enh Shammies are great to have. Hell, a talented Boomkin is good to have. A talented Elemental Shammie is good to have. Fury warriors most certainly *ARE* viable. In fact, no DPS scales like they do. By Black Temple, nothing is going to touch Fury DPS on equally geared, equally skilled players. Haste+ignore armor+weapon skill vs Bosses = imba DPS.

Arms+imp slam and flurry+great 2h = viable raid DPS as well. Shockingly enough.

[Relic]

christ thats a massive post. i would respong point by point if i wasnt posting from a construction site.

Pally's can tank pretty damn well...until endgame. The game changes then and flexibility is not always an option. Players have assigned roles, and Pallys have been given super efficient tank healing (and maybe more one day soon). I can understand why someone would be pissed upon reaching endgame and discovering that they arent wanted as a tank (happened to my druid in terms of cat form) but thats just how it goes right now. I think its done for balance purposes (otherwise why not just role a pally so you can have the option do just about anything you wanted?) Also, as was stated above, you CAN Pally tank..if your really good and really well geared. So the option does exist, they just arent makin it easy for ya.

And i still dont understand your use of the word empathy here. ITS A VIDEOGAME. You arent on the street starving. You're whining about ENTERTAINMENT. It's like goin to see a bad movie, losing 20 bucks on popcorn and tix. You tell me your experience...i say "oh that blows." Im not gonna get emotional about it tho...

[Relic]

Race, you're more than viable.

Enh Shammies are great to have. Hell, a talented Boomkin is good to have. A talented Elemental Shammie is good to have. Fury warriors most certainly *ARE* viable. In fact, no DPS scales like they do. By Black Temple, nothing is going to touch Fury DPS on equally geared, equally skilled players. Haste+ignore armor+weapon skill vs Bosses = imba DPS.

Stego, yeah later on Fury is certainly uber. But you have to work hard to get there. We had this discussion a few days ago, me thinks.

All the classes you mentioned are very much gear dependent, imho. A talented boomkin needs to have talented boomkin gear otherwise he's just a +5% crit chance to spells for his party. And an innervate =P

[Mister Manticore]

christ thats a massive post. i would respong point by point if i wasnt posting from a construction site.

Pally's can tank pretty damn well...until endgame. The game changes then and flexibility is not always an option.

That presumes Blizzard doesn't have any other options. I am not convinced of that, but to discuss this issue, we'd need to identify the aspects where Paladins are lacking. Though I suppose that would also require us to look at what tanks need.

Would you like to discuss that?

Players have assigned roles, and Pallys have been given super efficient tank healing (and maybe more one day soon).

The thing is, the classes in WOW are not portrayed as being limited to one single role, but rather, given some degree of flexibility and options. There are certainly assigned roles. But not just one role, but a couple. That's a good thing, as Role-playing games have evolved beyond the limited structures of the early days, and gone further into flexibility and customization. That's something people want, and I hardly think it's unreasonable to ask for it to be done right.

I can understand why someone would be pissed upon reaching endgame and discovering that they arent wanted as a tank (happened to my druid in terms of cat form) but thats just how it goes right now. Also, as was stated above, you CAN Pally tank..if your really good and really well geared. So the option does exist, they just arent makin it easy for ya.

Which is significantly different from saying "You shouldn't be complaining about this" as there is quite a gap between "It can be done with skill" and "You shouldn't even by trying, it's not something you should be trying to do at all" . The comments here have reflected the latter, not the former.

And i still dont understand your use of the word empathy here. ITS A VIDEOGAME. You arent on the street starving. You're whining about ENTERTAINMENT. It's like goin to see a bad movie, losing 20 bucks on popcorn and tix. You tell me your experience...i say "oh that blows." Im not gonna get emotional about it tho...

I see quite a bit of emotion right there. You're calling it whining. That reflects an emotional judgment, namely one where you've dismissed other people because you find their reasons for complaints to be unjustified.

Empathy doesn't just apply to people suffering from some gross harm or injustice. It doesn't even mean agreement. It means understanding, and it applies to any interaction with people where feelings are relevant. Which certainly applies to entertainment, as likes and preferences are clearly emotional in nature. What you're talking about, with people on the street starving, is more accurately compassion or sympathy, not empathy.

Guess this is a case where word usage is not identical. You may wish to read further on the subject, as it does seem to me that that is the problem. I am using Empathy to mean consideration and understanding of others, which I see as the problem here, as most of the statements against say, paladins complaints about not being tanks don't reflect an understanding of the position, but rather, some idea that "Paladins just shouldn't be tanks, it's not the way the game is" which I see as an unsound position.

[Mister Manticore]

Relic I am shocked. I cut divots into my nipples for all the pallies out there who can't get what they want. MM, your pedantic arguing is tiresome.

Hmm, and what would you have me say instead? I disagree with the reaction to what I see as a valid concern being dismissive. This, of course, applies to your personal attack right here. Do you not realize I see your reply as yet another demonstration that the problem is a lack of empathy?

[Relic]

That presumes Blizzard doesn't have any other options. I am not convinced of that, but to discuss this issue, we'd need to identify the aspects where Paladins are lacking. Though I suppose that would also require us to look at what tanks need.

Would you like to discuss that?

at some point, sure.

The thing is, the classes in WOW are not portrayed as being limited to one single role, but rather, given some degree of flexibility and options. There are certainly assigned roles. But not just one role, but a couple. That's a good thing, as Role-playing games have evolved beyond the limited structures of the early days, and gone further into flexibility and customization.

right, but like ive said before endgame is different. You are stuck in roles. That's done to create balance and demand for certain classes and abilities. Making Pally's super viable tanks without much effort on the player's part would totally lessen the value of a Prot War. Instead they can heal and and very sought after for that role IN RAIDS and PVP. I agree that MORE options would be great but then you might be goin back to 40 man raids and the headahces that brings. Im not sure what blizzard would have to do to totally balance all three talent trees for all classes into raid viable specs to be honest.

I see quite a bit of emotion right there. You're calling it whining. That reflects an emotional judgment, namely one where you've dismissed other people because you find their reasons for complaints to be unjustified.

tongue in cheek really. Its not real whining until you really whine.

Empathy doesn't just apply to people suffering from some gross harm or injustice. It doesn't even mean agreement. It means understanding, and it applies to any interaction with people where feelings are relevant. Which certainly applies to entertainment, as likes and preferences are clearly emotional in nature. What you're talking about, with people on the street starving, is more accurately compassion or sympathy, not empathy.

Guess this is a case where word usage is not identical. You may wish to read further on the subject, as it does seem to me that that is the problem. I am using Empathy to mean consideration and understanding of others, which I see as the problem here, as most of the statements against say, paladins complaints about not being tanks don't reflect an understanding of the position, but rather, some idea that "Paladins just shouldn't be tanks, it's not the way the game is" which I see as an unsound position.

im using the common definition of empathy, which includes vicariously experiencing those emotions. I can sympathize (slightly since, as ive mentioned, i had the same issue on my druid and had to learn to live with it and tank) but im not going to get carried away. Nor will i compare playing a game for entertainments sake to buying a fucked up car.

[RaceBannon42]

MM, Finding a post of yours tiresome constitutes a personal attack in your book?

If so you really need to thicken up.

[Kalbear]

Eh. For me, it's a matter of the perception rather than the actual behavior. Like I said, I don't know whether or not I'll like healing; it might be totally awesome, and I'm certainly willing to try. I did know about the basic roles in the world and the endgame, and I had a decent idea that pallys wouldn't be viable other than as healers for most groups; even if you're good enough and geared well enough to be a tank, most groups wouldn't bother having you as a tank anyway. I knew all that, and I rolled paladin anyway.

The only thing that really bothers me about it is the idea, the concept of a paladin. It just...it doesn't really ring true to me when the only valid role a paladin can have is heaing. I guess I grew up with D&D too much to believe that all they're good for is healing; part of their abilities has to be 'hit things with a big hammer' in my mind. That isn't the case right now and it's no use bitching about that not being the case right now, but at the same time it causes some amount of bother.

At the same time though, paladins are the best healers in the game. No other class is as in demand for their abilities for healing. No other class is as good at that role in endgame, and it's not even a contest. Kinda like tanking; priests are better in some generic ways, others have better HoTs/chain heals, but those abilities just aren't as useful when you get to the end game content as a pally healer is.

I would like paladins to have better ability to switch roles as needed though. That's what I think hybrid classes should be able to do reasonably, and I don't think Paladins are there yet. The big problem as I see it is that if a group doesn't need a healer...that healer can't reasonably tank all that well. Or DPS. It'd be tough to do the OT role without some of the abilities (like holy shield), and those are up in the prot tree. If you're specced prot, you're not going to be as useful a healer most of the time; sure, you can heal occasionally, but you can't do it as well and probably will only do it in a pinch. Other classes don't seem to have that kind of problem and can do multiple roles without respeccing; as long as they have the gear, they should be fine. I'm hoping that the ret changes will allow pallys a bit more flexibility in that regard.

right, but like ive said before endgame is different. You are stuck in roles. That's done to create balance and demand for certain classes and abilities.

That being said - Relic, the idea that people are absolutely stuck in roles for raiding and each class has one and only one role is bullshit. What is a druid's role? What is a shaman's? Heck, what is a priest's role?

Blizzard has said repeatedly that a class should be able to have multiple roles based on their spec. For warriors, they believe that fury warriors should be good DPS, arms should be good PvP, and prot should be good tanks. They believe that priests should be able to DPS and heal. They think druids should be able to do damn near everything in the game. They've said flat out that paladins should be on par with warriors and druids for tanking. There _should_ be competition, because with competition comes variety; people don't like to have to reroll just to play their character differently.

They've also said that there is a problem with not enough people playing tanks - that was one of the reasons that they're making the death knight, because they need more tanks.

If you like you can use your argument against you - if they made pally tanking more viable than prot warriors, you could just tell all the warriors who rolled and expected to tank that they should reroll, because that's what the game is like right now. That doesn't make sense to me, but that's basically what you're saying.

[Relic]

Other classes don't seem to have that kind of problem and can do multiple roles without respeccing; as long as they have the gear, they should be fine. I'm hoping that the ret changes will allow pallys a bit more flexibility in that regard.

not after a certain lvl. My feral druid stopped being able to heal that well after 55. Sure if you got gear up the asshole you'll be better at it, but you wont see that in raids. Respecing is a WoW reality. Like i said, allow pallys to be uber tanks, healers, and dps and youve got yourself a class that dominates everyone else in terms of utility and usability.

[Relic]

At the same time though, paladins are the best healers in the game. No other class is as in demand for their abilities for healing. No other class is as good at that role in endgame, and it's not even a contest. Kinda like tanking; priests are better in some generic ways, others have better HoTs/chain heals, but those abilities just aren't as useful when you get to the end game content as a pally healer is.

best tank healers, you mean. They suck at raid healing.