Is Benjen Stark Alive?

[God_made_me_do_it]

It's conjecture upon evidence. Let's not get pedantic. I've already had a full on discussion about the meaning of "long", it's getting old. Old as in a few hours, not several aeons if anyone's wanting confimation on that.

[Naathi Prince]

It's conjecture upon evidence. Let's not get pedantic. I've already had a full on discussion about the meaning of "long", it's getting old. Old as in a few hours, not several aeons if anyone's wanting confimation on that.

Like I said before, your "evidence" is that bran is a child, so two years ago is long ago. That would make sense if Bran was the one who said it. he's not. Your theory is complete bunk because there is nothing about coldhands (besides his status as a Ranger) that indicates at ALL that he is Ben Stark. Nothing. no mention of anything remotely connected to Benjen, no mention of him feeling familiar to Bran in some weird way. Nothing at all.

[rmholt]

I'd retort to that with -

1. Both of Benjen's travelling companions are accounted for and were found undead. Rangers typically go out in 3s. None of the other characters make as much sense from a story point of view, certainly none would have a compelling reason to go out of their way to obscure their identity from Bran.

2. Coldhands has pretty much every aspect of a wight, well, being obviously dead and animate.. yet doesn't have the blue eyes, which could quite clearly be a signifier of being controlled by a magical force, which would explain Coldhands not having them. I'm not sure how many other types of frozen undead hang about north of the wall but I'm saying it's a safe bet Coldhands is being kept animate by the same force that they are.. I did mention in that second post I meand wight, not white walker btw. I think coldhands is a sentient WIGHT.

3. I think the idea of chucking random spells in there to keep wool from going off is more than a bit far fetched.

2. Coldhands is NOT a wight - he is some kind of undead but NOT a wight. You cant say, well, he's a wight except his eyes arent blue, he talks, he still has his humanity, and he isnt trying to kill everything warmblooded in sight. The Others make wights - do you think Others made Coldhands? I dont. Just saying he is some sort of undead is no more than Coldhands himself said.

3. I prefer to think Benjen left them there with the intent to do something with them, however if the Rangers knew long ago about the value of obsidian it could be a cache from long ago. Since the Wall is built with safeguarding spells, why is it farfetched to put spells around caches?

[Failed to De-anon]

I grew up in a family of soap opera & horror film fanatics. Unless I see a dead body and potentially a severed head or something like that of a character who wasn't a "red shirt", I don't believe they're dead. I would be ok with Coldhands theory becoming a reality, though.

[kissdbyfire]

2. Coldhands is NOT a wight - he is some kind of undead but NOT a wight. You cant say, well, he's a wight except his eyes arent blue, he talks, he still has his humanity, and he isnt trying to kill everything warmblooded in sight. The Others make wights - do you think Others made Coldhands? I dont. Just saying he is some sort of undead is no more than Coldhands himself said.

3. I prefer to think Benjen left them there with the intent to do something with them, however if the Rangers knew long ago about the value of obsidian it could be a cache from long ago. Since the Wall is built with safeguarding spells, why is it farfetched to put spells around caches?

I'm not so sure Coldhands isn't a wight. I mean, we simply don't have enough info to determine what exactly is a wight. I think of all undead reanimated beings as 'wights', even Beric and Stoneheart, and I certainly include Coldhands in that group. The difference being that Beric and Stoneheart are fire wights whereas Coldhands and the other 'zombies' in the North are ice wights. I also think the blue light shining through the eyes. And I say 'shining through the eyes' instead of having blue eyes because if you read the descriptions given in the prologues of AGoT and ADwD you'll see it's not the actual eyes - it seems like it's something behind the eyes, in the brain, and that seems to indicate they are being controlled by someone/something else. What if Coldhands is somehow immune to full wightification? What if there's something about him that stopped the wightification short of full completion? And that's why he's in control of his actions and why he doesn't have the blue light shining through.

[rmholt]

I grew up in a family of soap opera & horror film fanatics. Unless I see a dead body and potentially a severed head or something like that of a character who wasn't a "red shirt", I don't believe they're dead. I would be ok with Coldhands theory becoming a reality, though.

I cant believe how off the charts the soaps have gotten!! Wild stuff

[God_made_me_do_it]

Obviously when I refer to him as a wight I don't mean a full-on servant-of-the-great-other wight. I simply mean he's clearly cut of the same stock, being, you know, the walking dead and all. Or that he was a wight and got "converted" or "exorcised" by the CotF, or maybe they gave him some item that protects him from having his soul taken over when he rose from the dead. And yes I think of Beric and Stoneheart as being very similar to wights too.

Since the Wall is built with safeguarding spells, why is it farfetched to put spells around caches?

We can put magic spells around Tyrion's cock for all I care but I'll be damned if it makes a whole lot of sense for the plot! Think - why? The obsidian would have survived either way, why on earth would a character leaving a cache think "oh, better make sure this cloak is preserved perfectly in order to mislead the finder as to it's age" then spend the time to cast a spell on it (presuming the character even had the ability to cast spells at will)?

Like I said before, your "evidence" is that bran is a child, so two years ago is long ago. That would make sense if Bran was the one who said it. he's not. Your theory is complete bunk because there is nothing about coldhands (besides his status as a Ranger) that indicates at ALL that he is Ben Stark. Nothing. no mention of anything remotely connected to Benjen, no mention of him feeling familiar to Bran in some weird way. Nothing at all.

*sigh* that is NOT what I was saying, that's not my evidence, that's my dispute against the evidence you and others have presented. My actual dispute there is that, "long ago" is a subjective term that can't be ascribed to a specific time period. This is not me saying that it proves Benjen is Coldhands, this is me saying that one minor character using the term "long ago" doesn't prove he isn't.

What I actually consider evidence (and feel free to dispute said evidence, just don't put your head in the sand and say "not evidence" please), is the combination of the facts that he's missing (obviously), his allies have turned up as undead, rangers have recently had contact with the children of the forest as evidenced by the cache of dragonglass, that he intentionally hides his identity from Bran, and that a Stark would have the most motivation out of any potential character to go out of his way to save another Stark - that I consider Benjen the best candidate for being Coldhands.

[rmholt]

Obviously when I refer to him as a wight I don't mean a full-on servant-of-the-great-other wight. I simply mean he's clearly cut of the same stock, being, you know, the walking dead and all. Or that he was a wight and got "converted" or "exorcised" by the CotF, or maybe they gave him some item that protects him from having his soul taken over when he rose from the dead. And yes I think of Beric and Stoneheart as being very similar to wights too.

The obsidian would have survived either way, why on earth would a character leaving a cache think "oh, better make sure this cloak is preserved perfectly in order to mislead the finder as to it's age" then spend the time to cast a spell on it (presuming the character even had the ability to cast spells at will)?

I do prefer the idea that Benjen left the cache with his cloak which he no longer needed before scooting south to Winterfell. That is about as cracked as any other theory about the cache.

If Benjen didnt leave it there, with his cloak, you need an explanation of how it got there. Making Benjen Coldhands leaves you short a cloak if he left the cache. How much time is required to cast a spell BTW and if it keeps a cloak fresh for thousands of years, it might be worth taking the time. Whether or not the cloak needed to be unrotted, it was. So either it was buried recently or had some protection from the elements.

If you are going to use your own definition for wights, fine. Just be aware that most of the rest of us are using GRRMs definitions.

[the titan of westeros]

I have all my proof of all my crazy theories from the back of the books at the end of dwd in the stark family tree benjen isn't parenthesiesed. all of the actual dead characters are. Stone snake for example (not sure if i got the right name there i stand to be corrected) was sent by the halfhand to try to make it back to the wall and never returned. He shared the same technical fate as benjen which is lost north of the wall or mia but he got a parenthesies whereas benjen's status was lost north of the wall considered dead. Case closed hes alive.

[rmholt]

I have all my proof of all my crazy theories from the back of the books at the end of dwd in the stark family tree benjen isn't parenthesiesed. all of the actual dead characters are. Stone snake for example (not sure if i got the right name there i stand to be corrected) was sent by the halfhand to try to make it back to the wall and never returned. He shared the same technical fate as benjen which is lost north of the wall or mia but he got a parenthesies whereas benjen's status was lost north of the wall considered dead. Case closed hes alive.

NIce pickup

[Ghost Rider]

My actual dispute there is that, "long ago" is a subjective term that can't be ascribed to a specific time period. This is not me saying that it proves Benjen is Coldhands, this is me saying that one minor character using the term "long ago" doesn't prove he isn't.

You're right, it doesn't disprove the CH=Benjen theory, it just makes it more unlikely.

What I actually consider evidence (and feel free to dispute said evidence, just don't put your head in the sand and say "not evidence" please), is the combination of the facts that he's missing (obviously), his allies have turned up as undead, rangers have recently had contact with the children of the forest as evidenced by the cache of dragonglass, that he intentionally hides his identity (...) and would have the most motivation out of any potential character to go out of his way to save another Stark - that I consider Benjen the best candidate for being Coldhands.

Unfortunately, that's exactly what I would have to say. Nothing of it counts as evidence. He's missing, so it could possibly be a (nonconclusive) clue, but no hard evidence. His allies turned up undead (some of them at least) - no evidence about the fate of Benjen provided here. Maybe he died with them, maybe not; maybe he became undead upon dying, maybe not. Rangers may have had recent contact with the CotF (even likely, though not at all necessarily), but that tells us zero about their whereabouts or situation.

That he intentionally hides his intention from Bran is by some considered evidence to the contrary of the CH=Benjen-theory, so not at all evidence in favour. That he may have some motivation to save another Stark is true, but doesn't make him CH, because it's not at all necessary that he is so strongly motivated to save Bran (as a person) specifically + you discount other possible motivations like e.g. a redemptive motive if he is NK or magical bounds.

All in all this "evidence" is very weak at best and considered only, because there are not many other candidates. (though I like the CH = WK-theory)

[the trees have eyes]

I have all my proof of all my crazy theories from the back of the books at the end of dwd in the stark family tree benjen isn't parenthesiesed. all of the actual dead characters are. Stone snake for example (not sure if i got the right name there i stand to be corrected) was sent by the halfhand to try to make it back to the wall and never returned. He shared the same technical fate as benjen which is lost north of the wall or mia but he got a parenthesies whereas benjen's status was lost north of the wall considered dead. Case closed hes alive.

This is an interesting point. I am sure at one point I scanned through the character lists and in one book either Tyrek or Gerion Lannister was not "parenthisised" which really got me thinking could they be involved later on? It could be an oversight, it could be GRRM changing his mind (we know he writes multiple versions of viewpoints and shifts secondary characters around) and I think it is more likely that GRRM doesn't parenthisise Benjen not becuase he is alive and is telling us so but because he wants to keep us guessing and to do that he has to leave the name clean.

The last thing we know about Benjen is that he led six rangers out looking for Waymar Royce. Two of his men - Othor and Jafer Flowers - were found near the end of AGOT and that is the last we hear of any of them. Much is made of the Dragonglass found by Jon / Ghost at The Fist of The First Men in ACOK but much is also made of Mormont's raven "dead, dead, dead", "dead, dead". The Old Bear even says to Jon after Jon reasons out that "[sic] one man could find many easier than many could find one in the Haunted Forest", that if Benjen Stark were alive he would see their fires on the fist and come to them there. He doesn't of course. Proof of nothing but as this guy disappeared from the story before Ned Stark or Robert Baratheon I find it increasingly unlikely he is alive beyond the wall and has any part left to play.

I don't find it likely that Bran would not have twigged or even suspected after all that time journeying together with Coldhands that it isn't Uncle Benji, particularly after that ilttle jolt "I'm your monster, Brandon Stark". Summer hasn't acted with any recognition, proof of nothing in itself but the absence of another little tell that might be there if he was a Stark. I don't find it compelling that Benjen is Coldhands, I understand why people like that theory but there is nothing definite for it, just a line of reasoning that will appeal to some but not others.

[the trees have eyes]

Obviously when I refer to him as a wight I don't mean a full-on servant-of-the-great-other wight. I simply mean he's clearly cut of the same stock, being, you know, the walking dead and all. Or that he was a wight and got "converted" or "exorcised" by the CotF, or maybe they gave him some item that protects him from having his soul taken over when he rose from the dead. And yes I think of Beric and Stoneheart as being very similar to wights too.

What I actually consider evidence (and feel free to dispute said evidence, just don't put your head in the sand and say "not evidence" please), is the combination of the facts that he's missing (obviously), his allies have turned up as undead, rangers have recently had contact with the children of the forest as evidenced by the cache of dragonglass, that he intentionally hides his identity from Bran, and that a Stark would have the most motivation out of any potential character to go out of his way to save another Stark - that I consider Benjen the best candidate for being Coldhands.

Hmm, I am wondering on the wight issue.

Thoros of Myr gave Beric the kiss of fire / kiss of life and brought Beric back to life. Beric is not undead / reanimated dead he is a living human being who got some hard core red priest CPR. There are consequences - Beric's memory is damaged, "fire consumes", and the physical woulds on his body are not repaired (his eye is not magically restored for example) but he has none of the corpse white flesh tone and black extremities of the wights (from blood pooling in the hands and feet as Coldhands tells Bran) and appears to be the genuine article, i.e. a sentient human being. The BWB certainly don't think he is undead and I'm sure he bled fresh blood in ASOS when he cut his hand to light his sword for the duel with the Hound and again when the Hound cut him open.

But he doesn't appear to need to eat or sleep. Or is this just Arya's impressions and not reliable?

Lady Stoneheart is something different. She had been dead too long and Thoros refused to give her the kiss of life so Beric did instead but it didn't work right. Lady Stoneheart is visibly rotting (the description of her in Brienne's encounter in AFFC is horrific). Alive or undead or somewhere in between? Her soul is present - she is Catelyn Stark with consciousness and free will in a way that the wight that was formely Othor did not but unlike Beric the flesh seems to be missing something vital for life, to be dead in a sense.

But you could say the same about the three eyed crow, the pale lord on his weirwood throne with tree roots growing through his body and out of his eye socket. Really not sure where GRRM is heading with this.

Coldhands is a mystery. We don't know how he died and how he was brought to his current condition and by whom. Leaf seems to indicate that he is dead - when Bran says they'll kill him, she responds, "No, they killed him long ago". Unlike Beric who was killed but brought back to life to be killed again numerous times (Lorch, Mountain, Hound) her answer seems to imply he is a sentient zombie, something his hands have implied since he first met Sam (black and icy cold).

I think Coldhands is the only one who is genunely undead but he seems a decent chap to have around all the same and reminds me of Dolorous Edd's complaints about all the work he would still have to do if being dead wasn't the end of things. I think Edd would be horrified by his future prospects

[rmholt]

Benjen disappeared along with 5 other guys. Two were found as wights. So actualy 4 guys are missing. Where is the love for the other 3 guys? and I presume their horses?

There is no reason for him to be Coldhands. I think Brynden used Coldhands to fetch Bran. His mission is over.

I think Benjen is alive. I think he left the obsidian cache. Woops now he doesnt have his cloak. I think he is in touch with the C ot F and on a mission following interaction with them.

I think he used tunnels under the Wall to go south and that he is now in Winterfell.

The previous paragraph is from my crackpottery. The rest I am more or less serious about.

[rmholt]

I'd retort to that with -

1. Both of Benjen's travelling companions are accounted for and were found undead. Rangers typically go out in 3s. None of the other characters make as much sense from a story point of view, certainly none would have a compelling reason to go out of their way to obscure their identity from Bran.

I've provided evidence, you just haven't accepted any of it.

Benjen had 5 traveling companions. Two were found dead and wight-y. The rest are missing. It is known. See, that's evidence. Saying they usually went out in 3's is conjecture. If you use conjecture when there is evidence, ppl are going to to correct you.

[God_made_me_do_it]

Yeah well I think with Coldhands you could simply say he's been dead longer. Obviously there's some obvious differences between dondarrion and wights from beyond the wall, I suppose to elaborate I suspect it's the same principle keeping them animate - just that for some reason the others like their undead as mindless slaves and for some reason R'hllor seems to want them to have some free will.

Regarding Benjen, I wouldn't read too much into what's written in the back of the book - it's clearly the author's intent that we don't know what's happened to him yet so simply hasn't listed him as dead because we don't know yet and clearly he doesn't want us to. It could also simply mean his plot is not yet finished so it doesn't discount the Coldhands theory either.

[God_made_me_do_it]

Benjen had 5 traveling companions. Two were found dead and wight-y. The rest are missing. It is known. See, that's evidence. Saying they usually went out in 3's is conjecture. If you use conjecture when there is evidence, ppl are going to to correct you.

Yeah sorry I realised that, although it actually helps because there's now potentially extra cloaks - I went back to check because coldhands seems to have a cloak as did at least one of his companions who was found dead by Ghost. It could simply be that he lost rangers at different times - for example 3 of them on the way to CoTF where they got the cache and the other two on the way back.

I'll be honest though all of our assumptions aside, I just like the theory because I think it makes for a good story, and I just can't think that a character as cool as Coldhands isn't gonna be a nobody or someone irrellevant to the plot. It just wraps things up nicely. Plus Martin's got enough on his plate trying to tie up 4 gazillion plots within the space of 2 (admittedly large) books - he's already stated the next two books are going to be bringing the characters all back together so I doubt he'd even have space to drop another Benjen-related plot in there. Coldhands turning back up, admitting to being Benjen and explaining the cache and stuff would just make sense and put a nice neat lid on the whole thing.

[Tattered Prince Pumpkinn]

Wow... this is really old thread.. It's an honor to be here..

[rmholt]

I'm not 100% Coldhands is even real. The ravens are making a hologram of him. One Eye sees the elk with two children riding it. I presume this is when Coldhands is off finding a "sow" but it gave me the idea that he wasnt really there a la Quaithe.

[Cat of the Canal Girl]

If Benjen was going to the far north, why didn't he stop as Craster's as Mormont expected he would? Or if he did stop at Craster's, why would Craster have lied about seeing him?