Mafia Game 48- It's over

[House Baratheon]

Interesting. There was just an hour between these two posts? Frey, explain?

[Ser Spidey]

[House Tyrell]

You are saying that you aren't focused on the weakest part, but to me it looks like you are. You continue to bring up the genderslip as a bullshit part of the case. Yes, it would be, but there was more to it than that. Again, this has been shown to be weaker by Martell's own defense, however I do not like when you continue to bring up a weak part of the argument. Yes, we get it, but you aren't sufficiently explaining the rest of it...and why is it, again, that you are working so hard to defend Martell?

im not defending Martell's innocence or guilt. i'm ripping apart some of the case cuz i think its wrong. i wont apologize for it.

do you want me to ignore the fact that I dont believe in the gender slip? If someone keeps bringing it up, i will keep saying the same thing. its not focusing on the weakest part of the case, its the fact that the case was being repeatedly made around that. if you look at the past games, every fucking time this gender slip comes up, its wrong. every fucking time. I must be the super guilty person for not seeing that in the case and therefore pointing out that its stupid. string me up already.

He is acting as he thinks an innocent would? Was it not pointed out earlier that if he was an innocent he was playing an extremely stupid game? He was defending Tully and then pointed out that we should look at the people who were in the mob as possible targets for today's lynch. I've already said how this is defending Tully.

youre quoting dayne who i think i sguilty. do you really think I give a shit if he believes an innocent would be stupid for jumping in? it's an innocent thing to do to point out that tully has 6 votes on him and is 3 votes from being lynched with no case on him. did he take it far? yes whichi s why he has gotten heat. i have repeatedly stated why i think he could be guilty, they just arent your reasons.

Yes I fucking get it and nobody has been saying they think that he is guilty because of it. Here again you are saying that you don't think he is guilty because of the weakest part of the case. Nobody fucking thinks he is guilty because it was the weakest part of the case. That part of the case was a minor part, as was pointed out, and was not given much credence by ANYONE. Why are you still bringing it up? You are strawmanning the case on Martell and it is not necessary. You have somewhat been beating around the bush regarding most of the case, you make some decent points, but then you say "Hey! This gender slip is bullshit."

Whatever, I am not sure that Martell is guilty nor that you are. I just have a problem with the way you are going about it.

no. once again, you take what i say and change it to fit what you believe. The gender slip does not make him not guilty. my point has been and always will be, that it doesn't make him guilty. the fact that you keep bringing it up like it means something, the fact that you keep taking it and using it as my main defense against Martell, is just showing that you have nothing. you're trying to make an attack out of nothing. I do not think that the "gender slip" means he is guilty. i have said that repeatedly. this does nto mean he isn't guilty for other reasons which i have said repeatedly. i already expressed my problems with him which happen to differe from yours since you think he's defending tully and i do not. just because we differ on the opiions doesn't mean shit.

I just did a rather quick reread and noticed a couple things, not as much jumped out at me ass I would have liked..but here it is:

Bolton:

After rereading, it really does seem that about one third of your posts are defending Martell's gender slip. Again, missing the point that Frey made about what looked like Martell lying about it (Yes, they have subsequently defended this well). Furthermore, I just don't see the point. It seems like every time it was mentioned Bolton would respond with "can we drop the gender slip", "enough with the gender slip", "oh we still think a gender slip is a reason for guilt?". Why continuously defend Martell? Why not let Martell defend themselves, which in they end they were somewhat able to do. There was pressure on Martell, not a lynch mob, in fact there were very few votes cast in Martell's direction. Sometimes asking for an explanation for something, even if it is bullshit (like the gender slip point), is very effective. In this case, it looked like it caught Martell in a lie.

what do you want me to do when a case is made on something tha thas been proven over time to be complete bullshit? do you want me to watch it happen? fuck that. if he's guilty, its for other reasons tha ti already expressed. i didn't think it was necessary for martell to defend against a gender slip that was meaningless. i felt that people were blowing it out of proportion to move the lynch along even though everyone was afraid to vote. it was a crappy reason to add on to the case to make it more legitimate and anyone who actually believed that became suspicious. so i pointe dit out repeatedly as everyone kept bringing it up. why do you keep harping on me about it when you keep telling me i should have left it alone?

no one asked for an explanation. they kept pointing it out and using it as a sign of guilt which i compeltely disagree with. i wont keep my mouth shut in fear of being connected to another player.

Again, why are you defending Martell here? So what if they are struggling to defend themselves in the face of pressure? They were not close to a lynch and their inability to sufficiently answer was suspicious. Why would you help if you didn't know whether they were innnocent or not? Even if you suspected they were innocent this is a stupid move. It does not matter whether you made good points or not regarding the case on Martell (again, I don't know why you would), still let Martell respond if they think they need to (and they should). You are taking away opportunity for us to learn more information.

why are you looking for things that are clearly not a defense? i said don't bother because it was true, he didn't have to bother. that post alone made my point and it was a point AGAINAST martell. this wasn't a defense, it was an affirmation that he tried to make a point against me and was factually incorrect and when i asked him to point it out, he couldn't. i didn't need him to point it out because i already knew the answer since it was against me. the fact he ignored it was what i wanted to get out there, not have him come up with some fictiusious answer or have him backpedal. i got what i wanted so i said don't bother. that is not a defense and the fact that you're trying oh so hard to make it a defense really really really tings my warning bells.

[House Wythers]

Lannister, your reread leaves a lot to be desired.

Baratheon comes. They try to make a case on Tully. Why bother doing this, if they actually place their vote on Tyrell? One could interpret this as 'staying in the middle of the road' in a rather subtle way. Bolton, who started the whole mob IMO, and Frey got in a heated discussion with Martell. Baratheon reappeared, just to make a case on Martell when everyone seemed to be keen on a lynch. Frey saw that as opportunistic, pretty much the same as I do. Baratheon immediately started OMGUS talk and overdefending theirselves.

First you don't actually link to the 'case' on Tully that you are referring to. I will, it is here. This is not a case and the fact your referred to it as such is strange. I am asking Tully a few questions about what they have said. In the end, yes I place my vote on Tyrell because I disliked their idea that lynching someone for no reason would be 'awesome'.

Re: Bolton, how does placing the 4th vote become starting the whole mob?

Next: "Baratheon reappeared". Um, what? Please point out where I disappear and then reappear. I was gone from my first post yesterday until my first today. Since then I have been here and posting consistently. You seem to be trying to push suspicion on me and make it look like I just jumped in because I saw an opportunity. This is a incorrect version of the facts. I did not, in fact, start OMGUS talk or overdefend myself. I was reasonable in pointing out the contradiction and fallacious nature of some of what he pointed out (as I have with you). If I placed a vote on you would it be 'OMGUS'? Not necessarily, because you have portrayed the events falsely and thus behaved in a manner I would expect from an FM.

But the person I'm concerned about the most is Dayne:

-6th vote on Tully. IMO they were probably the one to make it dangerous

-3rd vote on Martell. Their OOC reasoning was lame. Lame, I say. It took them 3 hours to place a vote, and it happened just after Baratheon's vote? If they placed a vote after they saw Bara's, then it's as close as it gets to the definition of opportunistic. Backing up a case with a vote is something that is usual, expected, when you believe in your case at least a bit. If not, why bother making it? You can always remove a vote later on.

-Overall scummy behaviour. I know, not a real reason, but anyway.

The mob on Tully was never really dangerous. Why are you perpetuating the thought that it was? I find Dayne suspicious as well, but I find it funny that you are voting for him for being opportunistic. You should consider looking in the mirror.

[House Dondarrion]

Spidey, I understand your feelings, but please don't do that, ok? Can you please edit your post to blank? Thx

[House Wythers]

[snip]

Crossposted with our lovely mod

[House Tyrell]

I think that at least one FM can be found among the vocal players. And I'm pretty sure that the Cult is staying way out of it.

i wouldnt be so sure of that. the cult, at this stage, can act like an innocent since he's trying to find the same thing as us.

[House Tyrell]

If I placed a vote on you would it be 'OMGUS'? Not necessarily, because you have portrayed the events falsely and thus behaved in a manner I would expect from an FM.

it sucks when peopel does this doesn't it?

The mob on Tully was never really dangerous. Why are you perpetuating the thought that it was? I find Dayne suspicious as well, but I find it funny that you are voting for him for being opportunistic. You should consider looking in the mirror.

if the mob was never dangerous, why do you believe Martell was so scared of it that he went ape shit and defended Tully (your interpretation)?

[House Wythers]

im not defending Martell's innocence or guilt. i'm ripping apart some of the case cuz i think its wrong. i wont apologize for it.

Much of my issue with what you have said has this at the heart of it. Let people defend themselves. If they are close to being lynched, maybe that is different. Unless you KNOW (100%) that someone is innocent do not defend them. Defending them allows them to parrot what you say and not think for themselves, thus gives them an easier time of defending themselves. It may be bullshit, but perhaps Martell would get caught in a lie or make a mistake and turn out to be actually guilty. YOU DON'T KNOW. If you do, please let me know.

do you want me to ignore the fact that I dont believe in the gender slip? If someone keeps bringing it up, i will keep saying the same thing. its not focusing on the weakest part of the case, its the fact that the case was being repeatedly made around that. if you look at the past games, every fucking time this gender slip comes up, its wrong. every fucking time. I must be the super guilty person for not seeing that in the case and therefore pointing out that its stupid. string me up already.

It was not made around that. I've said it a number of times, but you seem to have difficulty understanding that. Don't give me BS that every time gender slips come up that it is wrong, if it always was then people would never bring it up. It is a WEAK part of the case. Do you see what I'm saying? It is really POOR EVIDENCE of guilt. However, it looked like Martell LIED about what happened, thus it became a more valid part of the case. Do you understand? The POOR DEFENSE as a result of something that was WEAK evidence made someone look MORE SUSPICIOUS. Am I being unclear?

what do you want me to do when a case is made on something tha thas been proven over time to be complete bullshit? do you want me to watch it happen? fuck that. if he's guilty, its for other reasons tha ti already expressed. i didn't think it was necessary for martell to defend against a gender slip that was meaningless. i felt that people were blowing it out of proportion to move the lynch along even though everyone was afraid to vote. it was a crappy reason to add on to the case to make it more legitimate and anyone who actually believed that became suspicious. so i pointe dit out repeatedly as everyone kept bringing it up. why do you keep harping on me about it when you keep telling me i should have left it alone?

What was Gert lynched for that was really good reasoning? Not much. She was defended by a number of players and one of them was tied to her and they were both guilty. Look at what is happening here. Is all the reasoning against Martell good? No. You are defending them and making them look worse IMO. Could it be the same as last game? Yes. Could it be different? Yes. I am trying to point out that your actions have been DETRIMENTAL to the innocents, even if Martell is innocent. To point out, AGAIN, Martell was not close to being lynched.

i said don't bother because it was true, he didn't have to bother. that post alone made my point and it was a point AGAINAST martell. this wasn't a defense, it was an affirmation that he tried to make a point against me and was factually incorrect and when i asked him to point it out, he couldn't. i didn't need him to point it out because i already knew the answer since it was against me. the fact he ignored it was what i wanted to get out there, not have him come up with some fictiusious answer or have him backpedal. i got what i wanted so i said don't bother. that is not a defense and the fact that you're trying oh so hard to make it a defense really really really tings my warning bells.

I want him to bother. He could be flustered, saw something stupid, and get caught for a more legitimate reason. Or maybe he says something that is completely valid and looks innocent.

To be honest, in the end I don't think that either of you are guilty. I am just really not liking the way you played the situation and I am trying to make you understand why.

[House Wythers]

i wouldnt be so sure of that. the cult, at this stage, can act like an innocent since he's trying to find the same thing as us.

Agreed. That is how it was played last game.

if the mob was never dangerous, why do you believe Martell was so scared of it that he went ape shit and defended Tully (your interpretation)?

Martell perceived it to be dangerous. Whether it was his partner or he felt he was defending an innocent is the issue. As I've said, recently, I think it is most likely that Tully, Bolton, and Martell are all more likely to be innocent than not. We'll see though.

[House Baratheon]

Lannister, your reread leaves a lot to be desired.

First you don't actually link to the 'case' on Tully that you are referring to. I will, it is here. This is not a case and the fact your referred to it as such is strange. I am asking Tully a few questions about what they have said. In the end, yes I place my vote on Tyrell because I disliked their idea that lynching someone for no reason would be 'awesome'.

Re: Bolton, how does placing the 4th vote become starting the whole mob?

Next: "Baratheon reappeared". Um, what? Please point out where I disappear and then reappear. I was gone from my first post yesterday until my first today. Since then I have been here and posting consistently. You seem to be trying to push suspicion on me and make it look like I just jumped in because I saw an opportunity. This is a incorrect version of the facts. I did not, in fact, start OMGUS talk or overdefend myself. I was reasonable in pointing out the contradiction and fallacious nature of some of what he pointed out (as I have with you). If I placed a vote on you would it be 'OMGUS'? Not necessarily, because you have portrayed the events falsely and thus behaved in a manner I would expect from an FM.

The mob on Tully was never really dangerous. Why are you perpetuating the thought that it was? I find Dayne suspicious as well, but I find it funny that you are voting for him for being opportunistic. You should consider looking in the mirror.

I just tried to emphasise it. Didn't mean to insert the link.

Bolton becomes the mob b/c first 3 votes were really apart and they, except maybe Stark's, can't be accused of being opportunistic.

And, there you go again. Overdefending. All I did was to cast some suspicion on you, and you jump on it. You just won't allow anyone to be suspicious of you, will you? And by reappeared, I mean that IMO that was the first noticeable post of yours after some time.

If you vote me right now, you're just digging a grave for yourself. A revenge vote is not something you need right now. Of course, feel free to go on.

Out.

[House Baratheon]

Agreed. That is how it was played last game.

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to stay out of the crap to protect yourself from being lynched on day 1, and losing at the start?

Martell perceived it to be dangerous. Whether it was his partner or he felt he was defending an innocent is the issue. As I've said, recently, I think it is most likely that Tully, Bolton, and Martell are all more likely to be innocent than not. We'll see though.

Everyone here is more likely to be innocent. But still, there are killers among us.

Really out.

[House Wythers]

If you vote me right now, you're just digging a grave for yourself. A revenge vote is not something you need right now. Of course, feel free to go on.

Out.

Lannister

Oh, you have me shaking in my boots Lannister. Shaking in my boots as I have a shovel in my hand of course.

[House Tyrell]

Much of my issue with what you have said has this at the heart of it. Let people defend themselves. If they are close to being lynched, maybe that is different. Unless you KNOW (100%) that someone is innocent do not defend them. Defending them allows them to parrot what you say and not think for themselves, thus gives them an easier time of defending themselves. It may be bullshit, but perhaps Martell would get caught in a lie or make a mistake and turn out to be actually guilty. YOU DON'T KNOW. If you do, please let me know.

i said its stupid. i didn't give him a reason on why he did it. therefore, i'm not giving him anything to parrot off of.

It was not made around that. I've said it a number of times, but you seem to have difficulty understanding that. Don't give me BS that every time gender slips come up that it is wrong, if it always was then people would never bring it up. It is a WEAK part of the case. Do you see what I'm saying? It is really POOR EVIDENCE of guilt. However, it looked like Martell LIED about what happened, thus it became a more valid part of the case. Do you understand? The POOR DEFENSE as a result of something that was WEAK evidence made someone look MORE SUSPICIOUS. Am I being unclear?

i never said the case was made about that. that is what you ren't getting. you seem to think that I only believe that the case was mae on the gender slip, tehrefore it's the only part I decided to mention. That was not true and you know it. this is where our problem comes from. you are being unclear because you keep taking something that i say, twisting it around and trying to turn it into an expression of guilt even though you repeatedly say you dont believe i'm guilty. this post is th efirst time you've actually explained it to my satisfaction without saying im defending martell too much or that i'm just focusing on the weakest part of teh case.

for the record, people bring it up because they expect it to mean something. if you're alted, theoretically you shouldnt know the gender of someone youre attacking. so if you change genders, you must therefore know who it is and the only way to do that is by communicating outside the game. the reality, as has been proven over and over, is that there are a million different reasons for people changing gendes. one could be an alt-guess. another could be a quote, as martell did. another could be that they change genders back and forth as shadowbaby did a few games ago. the list goes on. if you want to discuss him lying about it, fine. but don't act so surprised when i think its bullshit and please dont tell me it means something when it doesn't.

What was Gert lynched for that was really good reasoning? Not much. She was defended by a number of players and one of them was tied to her and they were both guilty. Look at what is happening here. Is all the reasoning against Martell good? No. You are defending them and making them look worse IMO. Could it be the same as last game? Yes. Could it be different? Yes. I am trying to point out that your actions have been DETRIMENTAL to the innocents, even if Martell is innocent. To point out, AGAIN, Martell was not close to being lynched.

did I ever say she was lynched on good reasoning? She was lynched on reasoning though. there was no case on Tully at all. i'm glad you think I'm innocent yet you think I'm playing poorly for the innocents. I don't think so. You gain a lot when you do what i do, just like you seem to gain a lot when you twist people's words and expect them to play your way.

I want him to bother. He could be flustered, saw something stupid, and get caught for a more legitimate reason. Or maybe he says something that is completely valid and looks innocent.

not in that situation. he was going to be away for 9-10 hours as he said. I got the informatino I wanted from him and made the point I was trying to make. i could care less if YOU wanted him to do something different.

To be honest, in the end I don't think that either of you are guilty. I am just really not liking the way you played the situation and I am trying to make you understand why.

its my choice to play the situation as I see fit. if you think I'm not guilty, then stop giving me such a hard time about it. I'm trying to get information, just like you. we're just doing it differently.

[House Tyrell]

Wouldn't it be more reasonable to stay out of the crap to protect yourself from being lynched on day 1, and losing at the start?

why worry abuot that? if he gets a FM lynched, he looks good. If he gets a FM lynched, its good for his team. why keep yourself silent? its entirely possible he's being quiet but its certainly not more reasonable than acting like an innocent.

[House Wythers]

[snip]

its my choice to play the situation as I see fit. if you think I'm not guilty, then stop giving me such a hard time about it. I'm trying to get information, just like you. we're just doing it differently.

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

[House Tyrell]

Fair enough. Agree to disagree.

thank god. i was just about to type up a post to say the very same thing as i figured we were just going to argue til we were blue in the face. thanks for doing it first.

[House Dondarrion]

It is day 1.

17 players remain: Arryn, Baratheon, Blackwood, Bolton, Crakehall, Dayne, Frey, Greyjoy, Lannister, Manderly, Martell, Reed, Stark, Swann, Tully, Tyrell, Westerling.

9 votes are needed for a conviction or to go to night.

3 votes for Baratheon (Manderly, Tyrell, Frey)

3 votes for Dayne (Reed, Bolton, Lannister)

3 votes for Frey (Martell, Westerling, Blackwood)

2 votes for Martell (Greyjoy, Dayne)

2 votes for Tully (Crakehall, Stark)

1 vote for Stark (Tully)

1 vote for Lannister (Baratheon)

2 players have not voted: Arryn, Swann.

12 hours and 8 minutes left until nightfall

[House Wythers]

12 hours and 8 minutes left until nightfall

Hm, 6 hours for Swann to post.

[House Yronwood]

Good reasons to drop a vote:

1)

In my opinion, which is hangover influenced, your posts are too long to read. Tully

Yeah, why is Tully not posting oneliners? Has not everybody else been doing this?

2)

Tully is either very, very enthused to be playing a Lost based mafia game or attempting to pad the post count a bit... maybe both?

Damn those enhusiastic mafia players, who also enjoy to post more than twice per day!

3)

This is an endangered species, Tully and a baby!! Honestly, with such an attitude you can be as well a killer!

Actually one of the better reasoned votes.

4)

wat about a 4th vote on Tully? Is that supicious?

Yes, it is.

5)

Why not a 5th vote on Tully? Surely that must be suspicious.

Why not choosing our lynches randomly? Why not shooting Stark for being late? Why not guarding the mods?

6)

I call shenanigans. There mus be six votes on Tully.

Six. Which is one more than five. But not seven. Seven is evil. It must be six. Six is the holy Dayne number!