Stubby Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='Hereward' post='1468732' date='Aug 5 2008, 20.06']Collingwood may be in no real form, but he still battled out an ugly 100. I still don't think you can regard someone who has never scored a century in any form of professional cricket as a superior batsmen to Collingwood, however scratchy he may look while doing so.[/quote] I agree with Hereward on this. A 100 is a 100 is a 100. No-one would ever have described Geoff Marsh or Justin Langer as elegant - but they were very effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 I'm not denying it was a good knock and a very needed one, I just don't think it on its own could be used as proof of being in form with the bat, so I'd rather take Broad who we know is in form with the bat and is bowling better then Collingwood. Were taking a chance with Pieterson as Captain and with playing Bopara instead of Shah or Key, I just think Collingwood would be too big of a risk when added onto the previous ones. Edit: I would love to be proven wrong by Collingwood in the Oval test, but I just don't think that its going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korax Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Bastards - the ECB just signed away the TV rights to Sky for another 4 years. Not that I'm the least bit surprised admittedly - once they've got used to that extra level of income there was no way they were going to go back again. But the fact is that until a couple of weeks ago I'd not seen a single minute of live Test cricket since 2005, and since my Murdoch allergy is too extreme to consider getting Sky that's presumably that's how it'll be for the foreseeable future. I don't really object too much to football and rugby going to Sky because I'm happy to go down the pub for the couple of hours it takes to watch a game, but doing it for an entire day to watch a Test is a little bit much... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='Korax' post='1469520' date='Aug 5 2008, 22.05']I'm happy to go down the pub for the couple of hours it takes to watch a game, but doing it for an entire day to watch a Test is a little bit much...[/quote] I'm guessing it's probably also not that easy to find a pub showing the cricket all day if you live in Edinburgh. It is annoying, I'm not able to put up a satellite dish here (I'm not sure why but it's not allowed) so I'm completely unable to watch Sky. It does seem a bit odd that cricket is the only major UK sport which doesn't have some of its matches guaranteed to be on free-to-air channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korax Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='williamjm' post='1469533' date='Aug 5 2008, 22.15']I'm guessing it's probably also not that easy to find a pub showing the cricket all day if you live in Edinburgh. It is annoying, I'm not able to put up a satellite dish here (I'm not sure why but it's not allowed) so I'm completely unable to watch Sky. It does seem a bit odd that cricket is the only major UK sport which doesn't have some of its matches guaranteed to be on free-to-air channels.[/quote] For some reason I'd thought that the World Cup final was guaranteed but I just checked and it's not, so yeah it is strange. The Ashes really ought to be in the same category as the big events in other sports, and since there's only a home series once every four years they come round at the same frequency as the various World Cups and the Olympics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeor Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote]I'm not denying it was a good knock and a very needed one, I just don't think it on its own could be used as proof of being in form with the bat, so I'd rather take Broad who we know is in form with the bat and is bowling better then Collingwood.[/quote] I'd agree that Broad seems in better batting form than Collingwood, but I'm not so sure he's bowling better. He was being bowled much more, but that doesn't necessarily mean better; I'm sure that if Collingwood were to bowl the same number of overs as Broad, they'd have pretty similar figures. Neither of them is super-threatening; and Broad lacks penetration and wickets such that I'd argue he shouldn't be a third seamer in any attack. Collingwood and Broad have the bowling styles and records of handy part-time bowlers and not much more, call it what you will; a change bowler, partnership-breaker, etc. To be fair, Broad could improve his bowling, whereas Collingwood probably can't at his age. But Collingwood has a better overall record and a much higher ceiling with the bat; as Hereward said, Broad hasn't even scored a first-class century. Broad will likely improve both his batting and bowling and supplant Collingwood in future years. But for now, even though Collingwood is playing well below par, his batting potential is much higher than Broad's and deserves to be taken into account. That, and with Flintoff in, England need batting more than they need bowling, and I'd be much happier with Collingwood batting at 5 than Broad batting at 6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='SirRots' post='1468729' date='Aug 5 2008, 20.00']I'd rather have a consistent batter like Broad then Collingwood at the moment.[/quote] The problem is that you can't pick Broad on his batting ability and then play him at 8. It just doesn't make any sense. And you can't justify Broad's selection on the basis of his bowling ability. Broad's bowling average in test cricket is actually [i]worse[/i] than Collingwood's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [url="http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/06082008/58/broad-harmison-oval.html"]Seems everyone was right[/url] Vaughn dropped along with Sidebottom with Harminson and Broad recalled. Top order are really going to have to perform with 5 bowlers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Thursday Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 I think having Collingwood come in right after Pietersen might help him, actually. He seemed a lot more comfortable early on in his century because there was someone up the other end who was scoring profusely, allowing him some time to get in. Whereas with Bell he will have felt slightly more impetus to score early in his innings, causing problems. *crosses fingers* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 It could have been worse, I suppose. Having Flintoff at 6 and Ambroase at 7 scares the hell out of me on a pitch likely to be the most favourable of all English pitches to S Africa, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williamjm Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='Paxter' post='1469976' date='Aug 6 2008, 10.55']Broad's bowling average in test cricket is actually [i]worse[/i] than Collingwood's![/quote] I just looked now and they've got almost identical batting and bowling averages (41.31 and 49.07 for Collingwood and 41.22 and 49.36 for Broad). Of course, averages can be a bit misleading and it's maybe more significant that Broad has never scored a first-class century and Collingwood has an Ashes double-hundred. I think Broad is the superior bowler although the difference maybe isn't quite so large, I think Collingwood is maybe a bit underbowled in Test matches, he can be useful if conditions are right, he does after all hold the all-time record for best English One-day international and Twenty-20 International bowling figures in an innings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeor Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='Hereward' post='1470128' date='Aug 7 2008, 00.08']It could have been worse, I suppose. Having Flintoff at 6 and Ambroase at 7 scares the hell out of me on a pitch likely to be the most favourable of all English pitches to S Africa, though.[/quote] Flintoff at 6 and Ambrose at 7...that'd be selectorial suicide. The tail (7-11) would be just as long as the batsmen (1-5) with Flintoff just escaping narrowly so he doesn't fit into either. As long as Flintoff is in the team, I think the case for Broad is going to be a fairly hard one to make. Flintoff already fulfils the role of the all-rounder. Everyone else in the lineup should then be good enough to be picked on either his batting or his bowling ability alone. Broad, at this stage, is not good enough to be picked for either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 The team's already been announced: Flintoff at 6, Ambrose at 7, Broad at 8, Harmison at 9, Anderson at 10 and Panesar at 11. God help us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vestrit Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 [quote name='SirRots' post='1469312' date='Aug 5 2008, 19.59']I'm not denying it was a good knock and a very needed one, I just don't think it on its own could be used as proof of being in form with the bat, so I'd rather take Broad who we know is in form with the bat and is bowling better then Collingwood. Were taking a chance with Pieterson as Captain and with playing Bopara instead of Shah or Key, I just think Collingwood would be too big of a risk when added onto the previous ones. Edit: I would love to be proven wrong by Collingwood in the Oval test, but I just don't think that its going to happen.[/quote] This is maybe a bit of a redundant point now that the team's been selected, but to my mind, the fact that Collingwood scored what should have been a match-winning hundred whilst, by his own admission, in bad form actually strengthens his case for retaining his place in the side. The big scores someone gets when they're in great form are fun, but the big scores they get when they're not in form or under huge pressure tell you about their temperament, courage and innate ability. It's possible that C'wood will go out now and epically fail at the Oval, but I suspect that innings last weekend might have been him turning the corner and he'll be ok now for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 I really do Hope it is a turning point for him and I'll be happy for him if it is as it would have saved his international career. I suppose I was being pessermistic about him ( I have being about most things this last year but thats just due to personal reaons effecting them), but all we had from him all summer were small knocks and failures and in attempt to counter balance those. the brilliant century at Edgebastion, just not convinced thats enough to turn it around for him. Either he'll prove me right which I wont be happy about as we need a grafter in the side or he'll prove me wrong and all will be well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Smith dropped off the first ball of the match. I feel this could be a long day. Edit: And Cook drops his second catch off Smith. How many lives are we going to give him in this series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Jeepers Creepers what a turn around, this is a batting collapse reminisent of the Glorius England days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hereward Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Great bowling! Am I being overly negative when I wonder what South Africa's attack will do on this pitch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daeric Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 So far we've either had a)Absolute rubbish or b)Brilliance from the SA bowlers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paxter Posted August 7, 2008 Share Posted August 7, 2008 Broad has been pathetic today. I can't believe that they selected him in front of a talented, in-form middle-order batsman like Shah (who they might have needed the way that this pitch is playing). Mind-boggling selection IMO. Good comeback from Harmy though. The problem is that this performance comes as no surprise to me - he has always bowled well in English conditions. It is when England play away from home that his frailties emerge (to illustrate the point: his SR goes up 20 balls, and his average up 8 runs). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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