The Happy Ending

[Errant Bard]

Ah yes, well I always liked that part because they at least had each other and their friendship (and also they were going to a place of new and exciting adventures). Also by the time they left, wasn't almost everyone involved in the whole thing dead, as it was like 80 years later?

Well, yeah, they are the only ones left from the fellowship at this point. Though I would say it's more something like 200 years, isn't Aragorn 180 or so when he decides to sleep?

Anyway, the bittersweet thing is summed up by Frodo: "We set out to save the Shire, Sam. And it has been saved... But not for me." If we replace "Shire" by "Winterfell" (or even better "the world"), it is totally something I can see any Stark kid say in the end (those alive).

[Wouter]

It's worth noting that Winterfell and surroundings (winter town, and such) have already been well and truly "scourged". Most of the original occupants are dead - only exceptions are some of the women (if those still live in the Dreadfort) and a few soldiers like the one with Hallis Mollen, and the odd isolated man like Harwin. Besides some of the Starks themselves, and Jeyne Poole, every other member of the household and guards has been killed. It's plenty bitter stuff already, especially taking into account what happened to Ned, Catelyn and Robb.

For the Starks, a truly "sweet" ending has long since become impossible. They have taken enormous losses. Hence, for a bittersweet ending it's probably time some sweet stuff is there to counterbalance what they already lost (I suppose they will regain Winterfell, and most of the remaining Starks will survive, though not necessarily end up 100% happy).

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

[Candor]

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

:agree:

I still think we are due for a few more deaths, though, just with the way the plot is moving. For example, I don't see Jaime surviving the series, and I figure either Jon, Dany, Aegon, two of them, or all of them are going out by the end. I don't want that to happen but I think it's probably going to anyway.

[Errant Bard]

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

I thought the LOTR ending was fantastic, and so were (among recent ones) Last Argument of Kings, The Thousandfold Thought, the Lies of Locke Lamora, the Price of Spring or the Folding Knife. I want ASOIAF to be like that, fantastic; I care about the characters, but I care about the story, its consistency, its greatness, way more.

So I think that you're establishing a false dichotomy here: it's quite possible to care about characters, to be in the story, but still wish for a non-sappy ending.

[Lord Barristan]

I think for the Starks the "bittersweet" ending will be that Winterfell will be rebuilt, the Starks will hold the North, and Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell.

The sad thing is the kid will be an unpredictable ruler who for all intents and purposes never knew his parents (died when he was 4) and will have to give way to a regent until he comes of age, and we have no idea who that will be considering he has no aunts or uncles left

Sansa will marry some Lord, but it won't be like the songs, and she won't love him i assume

Tyrion could finally become Lord of Casterly Rock, but he never got to reconcile with Jaime and he will be haunted by the memory of killing his father. Inheriting the Rock will feel very hollow for him

[Woman of War]

Wouter:

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

no, that is not true.

Of course I want my favorite characters to stay in the story as long as possible,

but a happy ending........I do not believe in it.

Take for example "a Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving. You know right from the beginning that Owen will die, that there will be a rather bitter ending, there is a kind of prophecy in it. I loved the book, the characters moved me very much, but of course I never wanted a happy ending because in the structure of the story this was not possible. Or take "Doctor Schiwago" by Pasternak. That book hurts literally, so wonderful, a happy ending is impossible, so I never wanted it but I devoured every word.

[1234567]

I think for the Starks the "bittersweet" ending will be that Winterfell will be rebuilt, the Starks will hold the North, and Rickon will be Lord of Winterfell.

The sad thing is the kid will be an unpredictable ruler who for all intents and purposes never knew his parents (died when he was 4) and will have to give way to a regent until he comes of age, and we have no idea who that will be considering he has no aunts or uncles left

Tyrion could finally become Lord of Casterly Rock, but he never got to reconcile with Jaime and he will be haunted by the memory of killing his father. Inheriting the Rock will feel very hollow for him

:agree:

That sounds like a distinct possibility. Him becoming exactly like Tywin is also possible.

I also don't think Brienne is going to have a great fate. Her and Jaime's character arcs are too intertwined. She started as an honourable character falsely accused of murdering the man she loved and hated for it and may end the series by killing the man she now loves (Jaime) and being congratulated for it but thinking it is her most ignoble act. A sort of Jaime and Aerys situation in reverse.

Cersei and Tommen are doomed.

[Woman of War]

You want a book with a happy ending?

Read "the Better Angels Of Our Nature" by Stephen Pinker. Enjoy!

[Skeksi]

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

I disagree. I'd love a "happy" ending in the sense of characters I like doing well out of it. But my two favourite characters are Varys and Littlefinger, so I'm going to go out on a limb and say my idea of a happy ending differs substantially from a lot of other peoples :P Of my other favourite characters- Arya, Asha, Tyrion and, probably, Dany- one is training to kill people and dreaming of revenge, one is a drunkard who alternates between hating himself, pitying himself, trying to find out "where whores go", and plotting to destroy the rest of his immediate family, and Dany, meanwhile, is Queen of a city that hates her, and is aiming for the throne of a kingdom she is a stranger to- and might not even be first in line for that.

So I suppose a "happy ending" for me, in it's strictest sense of the characters I like getting what they want, would be a) Littlefinger and Varys both carrying on their manipulations, perhaps in positions of more power, B) Arya getting to slaughter everyone else on her list, c) Tyrion raining bloody slaughter down upon his family, d) Dany getting the throne in Westeros, and having her (big, firebreathing, flesh eating) dragons flying around Westeros, and e) Asha getting the Iron Islands. Pretty sure that's not what most readers want when they think Happy Ending. And, going to be honest, it's not really what I want. I want it to be uncertain, but more than that, I want it to be real. I don't want the whole book geared towards making me a happy ending, no matter how unrealistic the outcome is.

When I think "Happy Ending", I tend to think of the sort of cliched fantasy ending that I talked about before- the Starks reunite, Jon is a secret prince, their enemies are killed/ punished somehow, good wins out over evil, etc. There are several reasons I don't want this:

a) The world of ASOIAF is pretty ruthless. People who work purely on honour, and noble motivations, tend to get shafted in favour of those playing a more canny game. A lot of the time, people die- sometimes characters we like. And not always dying nobly in battle, or killed by their arch enemy, or fighting for justice- sometimes they're removed because they're inconvenient, or they happen to be collateral damage. Sometimes they get murdered at weddings. This is the story GRRM has been telling for several books now, and I've been reading it, because I enjoy it. I don't want to see the whole world get rearranged, and the atmosphere of the books be changed so that "noble characters come out on top and bad characters face justice". If that's what I wanted to read, then why in the hell have I not resigned myself to the fact that this might not be the series for me?

b ) On a personal level, I find a lot of the "good, noble characters" very boring- Jon turns out to be a secret prince who gets the throne? Jon is dull as dishwater. Jaime on a grand redemption arc that may end in his heroic sacrifice? Jaime is a whiny idiot who cares more about the fact his sister cheated on him than the fact she's ordered the deaths of children and is running the kingdom into the ground. Grand epic romance for Sansa and Sandor? Sansa was terrified of the Hound in half the scenes they were together, and idealises them when he isn't there anymore, and he was eyeing up a girl much younger than him (the same thing that Littlefinger and Tyrion are frequently condemned for) on the basis that she was sweet and pure and innocent and idealistic, which she probably isn't going to be by the next time they meet up, even if they do. The remaining Starks rebuilding Winterfell and going on with their life? Their lives have taken them down very different paths than "the lord's beloved sons and daughters", paths that I want to see more of.

So, essentially, I love the books as a whole, and there's many characters I love, but I don't like the idea of a "Happy Ending" from the perspective of enjoying the story, nor from the perspective of loving the characters. I don't think that means I'm not "in" the books.

[Allyria Dayne]

Take for example "a Prayer for Owen Meany" by John Irving. You know right from the beginning that Owen will die, that there will be a rather bitter ending, there is a kind of prophecy in it. I loved the book, the characters moved me very much, but of course I never wanted a happy ending because in the structure of the story this was not possible.

It's probably one of my favourite book, and even if we know from the beginning that Owen is dead, the end of the book is terribly sad.

It's so sad that sometimes, when I re-read it, I don't read the end!

I hope it won't be the same with the end of aSoIaF, I'm preparing myself to some sad events and some death (I fear for Jaime )

[Erinne]

I think that if you are truly "in" the books and you like (some of) the characters, then you would want a good ending. If you reason that it would be cliché to have a (relatively) happy ending because most fantasy books though, then this seems to me to be "cold" reasoning from "outside" the world of the books. If a book and its characters truly move the reader, that reader should normally want a good ending (for those characters (s)he likes, at least).

That's the problem with ASoIaF; I care for so many different characters, some of whom are actively trying to kill one another, that even though I want them (at least most of them) to have happy endings, I know it would be pretty difficult to pull that off without totally ruining the story.

[Kate Poem]

I will be happy when Rickon Stark will rebuild Winterfell and become again a Ward of the North. I will be happy when Sansa wil come to home back.

Maybe Arya could be again Stark, not Faceless Girl?

I like all of Starks.

[Serie]

by default there can be no happy ending after everything. The thing is how bad it can be...

[Howlin' Howland Reed]

I think it can get substantially worse actually. But I do think that GRRM has a difficult task ahead of him, since, as Erinne noted, many readers may root for characters (or even major plot developments) that are intrinsically opposed to one another.

Anyways, just thought I'd link to a nice post by Ran (but authored by Linda) speculating on Bran's ultimate fate.

[Raksha the Demon]

Testing Spoiler Tag! (thank you, Errant Bard, for showing me the tag formats)

I am using spoiler tags!!!

Whoo-HOOOO! They work! I can now use spoiler tags in these Forums! Joy and Yummies!

Seriously, I was thinking I was the village idiot here, unable to figure them out...

[Queen Regent]

Not anti-Stark here either... I really do hope that R+L=J, and I hope that Dany comes over from Westeros, she and Jon fall in love and conquer the Others with the dragons. I hope that Sansa comes home to rule Winterfell and Arya, Bran and Rickon shortly follow.

Oh and I hope that Gilly gets her baby back!!!

[Woman of War]

I think it can get substantially worse actually. But I do think that GRRM has a difficult task ahead of him, since, as Erinne noted, many readers may root for characters (or even major plot developments) that are intrinsically opposed to one another.

I hope GRRM does not read these forums, plays Santa Claus to his readers and fulfils their little wishes concerning Bellas and Edward's ride into dawn (urrrggh) but writes his own story - he will.

[Erinne]

I'm pretty sure that if GRRM read this forum, he'd be doing it just to learn who everybody's favourite characters are and then kill them off. This is GRRM we're talking about, after all.

[Raksha the Demon]

@ Alia of the Night

Do you mean will there be any sweetness at all?

Well GRRM uses the Lord of the Rings as his example of Bittersweet. The ending of that can be broken down as follows:

Spoiler tagged in case no one has read TLotR.

Bitter: All the Elves have to leave

Bitter: The Shire is scoured

Bitter: Arywen is permanently seperated from her family to be with the man she loves.

Bitter: Frodo is the Hero, but destroyed by the task and has to leave with the elves.

Bittersweet: Eylown marries Faramir which seems to be happy, but she still loves Aragon

Sweet: Sam and Rosey Marry!

Sweet: Aragorn and Arywen Marry!

Sweet: The Shire is restored.

Sweet: Gondor becomes good again!

Sweet: Gimli and Legolas go off on some adventures!

There are probably more, and sorry about the spelling. I did not have the books to hand.

However I don't know if GRRM will make the ending even that bittersweet. The emphasis could be on one part but not the other.

Just a few corrections on the LOTR endings:

All the Elves don't have to leave. Only the high-elves, Elrond, Galadriel, and some of the other oldest and wisest of the Sindar and Noldor nobility leave, and perhaps some of the other Elves from Imladris and Lothlorien. They leave because they feel they must; their time in Middle-earth is done and they feel the call of Valinor, the 'Blessed Realm'. Galadriel's husband Celeborn does not leave. Cirdan, who bore one of the Three Rings of Power before giving it to Gandalf and is very old, does not leave. Legolas and his father Thranduil and their people do not leave. The supernatural protection given by two Rings of Power to Imladris and Lothlorien has ended, since the Rings, borne by Elrond and Galadriel, have gone powerless after Sauron's fall.

Gondor was not 'bad' before the end of LOTR; it just had been ruled by the Stewards (often very well) instead of the Kings and had suffered from proximity to Mordor and fighting an increasingly hopeless battle against Sauron and his vast forces. Also, the population had declined in some places, such as the White City of Minas Tirith, due to war and plagues. It is implied that Gondor prospers under Aragorn's rule, Tolkien took pains to show the valor and strength of various people of Gondor before Aragorn took up the kingship; and I don't think he meant to imply that the land was 'bad'.

Arwen is not permanently separated from her entire family at the end of LOTR. She had been separated from her mother about 500 years earlier; and now that separation will become permanent, but she loses her father and her grandmother for good. Her brothers and her grandfather remain in Middle-earth at the end of LOTR; Tolkien never reveals the ultimate fates of Elladan, Elrohir and Celeborn; though it's implied that all three of them stay in Imladris at least for many mortal years.

Eowyn is betrothed quite happily to Faramir; there's no hint that she still loves Aragorn; she didn't really know him very well in the books and had more of an infatuation with him than a true and abiding love.

Gimli and Legolas do spend time together in their respective domains (Gimli starts a dwarf colony in the Glittering Caves of Helm's Deep; and Legolas brings a group of Elves to live in Ithilien to help restore the land); but Tolkien does not speak of 'adventures' - though fanfic writers do! Eventually, it is implied that they both take ship to Valinor after Aragorn's death, when Gimli is very old and Legolas finally yields to the Sea-longing.

Of course, the most bittersweet element of all is the fate of Frodo; who sacrificed his health and so nearly his life to save first the Shire and then much of Middle-earth; he is too ill to stay to enjoy the fruits of victory, to even see the Shire restored; and has to leave all that he has loved. And the greatest, most beautiful of the Elves have left; it's implied that the ones who stayed will eventually follow, or fade, in future centuries.

I personally think that GRRM will make the ending of ASIoAF far less sweet and more bitter than the end of LOTR, but he could prove me wrong.

I think that the Others will be destroyed/stopped; but at great cost; and a long Winter will destroy still more. I don't see both Jon and Dany surviving the series. I would be surprised if Tyrion died before the end; I think he will live and get some of what he thought he wanted, perhaps the lordship of Casterly Rock, but grow old in increasing bitterness, jealously guarding his power. He might end up directing the death of Tommen (and maybe Myrcella) unless others beat him to that stroke. I think Tyrion will find Tysha and she will furiously reject him; and he will see how she has been tormented and twisted by what he and his father did to her.

I think Arya and Sansa will both live. As what, or with whom, I don't know. Arya could become a lonely, bitter assassin, or a military advisor at Winterfell under the rule of either Rickon or Bran. I don't see her becoming a great Lady of a domain. Maybe she'll hook up with Gendry when she's older. Sansa could become a lady of a domain (the Vale, or Winterfell, or even Casterly Rock though I hope not), or a vicious power-hungry schemer like Littlefinger. Both Arya and Sansa are on the verge of corruption; Arya has already willingly and consciously assassinated a stranger just because she was told to do so by her mentors; and Sansa is straddling a very important line by alternately being a substitute mother to SweetRobin and being a potential accomplice to his premature death. They have difficult choices to make; since neither Stark sister has anywhere else they can safely go.

I'm not wild about little Rickon becoming Lord Stark; the kid is something of a loose cannon; and he doesn't have Ned to teach him Stark traditions and the importance of compassion and accountability. A happy ending would be Bran abandoning tree-hood and becoming Lord Stark, and teaching Rickon himself, with Sansa and hopefully Arya to help; with Rickon as Bran's heir and Sansa's potential children after Rickon and his potential children.

The Lannisters are probably going to be wiped out, except perhaps for Tyrion, one or two descendants of Genna, Tyrion's bastard niece Joy, and possibly Myrcella if her betrothal to Trystane holds.

There's going to be tremendous upheaval among the Seven Kingdoms, noble houses, vassals, smallfolk; etc., even more than we've seen. There might not be an Iron Throne at the end. Who will sit on it if it's there? Maybe Daenerys? Maybe King Bronn the First after leading a coalition of forces to stop the Others from conquering King's Landing? Maybe a certain young dragon? It's really hard to tell. It could be that the Iron Throne will just be the seat of whoever holds King's Landing, and has no further jurisdiction.

I don't think that Stannis, Selyse or poor little Shireen will survive.

I hope that Barristan Selmy, Strong Belwas, Wun Wun, Dolorous Edd, Brienne, Val, and the switched 'wildling prince' and 'monster' and Podrick Payne survive. I think that Samwell Tarly will live; and become a Maester.

[1234567]

@Raksha the Demon

Sorry I was probably being a bit glib in my summary. I wasn't suggesting that JRR Tolkien wrote about their adventures together but was highlighting that their friendship endured and they went off together at the end and I've only read the authors work concerning Middle Earth. I had forgotten that some of the Elves stayed though!

I do hope the story will not end being more bitter than sweet, because it has already been extremely bitter. However based on the events so far it does seem likely to be that way.

I agree with your possible synopsis above (although I still think Stannis will make it to the end, although I suspect Davos is doomed).