World of Warcrack

[Kalbear]

Yeah, that's still not a one-shot. That's 'tank died because he took X damage without heals'.

"All heals on Vyre" is still a joke at FnB. :P

[quote]If you stop cast, you have a 2.5 new cast time, and in that time, the tank can easily take more damage than he has HP, or you will fall behind on healing due to not being able to push out enough healing per GCD (happens a LOT).[/quote]

This sounds to me like a couple things. One is that you're not communicating well enough with the other healer. If you're both in sync on your big heals, the chances of something going bad are far greater. It also sounds like whatever tank you have isn't employing their ohshit buttons well enough. As a bear I've got a couple tools for any encounter that should give me at least a few more seconds of life: healing pots & healthstones (macroed to use both with one hit), trinkets to max avoidance for a few seconds, ironshield pots for more armor, etc. These aren't exactly unique to bears either. Heck, if all else fails you can simply stop attacking to make sure you don't get parrygibbed. A lot of that sounds like an undergeared or otherwise poor tank, too; if you can miss one heal in 2.5 seconds and die, there's not a lot of room for error. I know that's the case on the lynx boss with the saber lash, but still..yikes. And yes, a healer should be paying attention to the swing timer and cast bar of the boss. So should everyone, really.

[Relic]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1414731' date='Jun 25 2008, 15.07']This sounds to me like a couple things. One is that you're not communicating well enough with the other healer. If you're both in sync on your big heals, the chances of something going bad are far greater. It also sounds like whatever tank you have isn't employing their ohshit buttons well enough. As a bear I've got a couple tools for any encounter that should give me at least a few more seconds of life: healing pots & healthstones (macroed to use both with one hit), trinkets to max avoidance for a few seconds, ironshield pots for more armor, etc. These aren't exactly unique to bears either. Heck, if all else fails you can simply stop attacking to make sure you don't get parrygibbed. A lot of that sounds like an undergeared or otherwise poor tank, too; if you can miss one heal in 2.5 seconds and die, there's not a lot of room for error. I know that's the case on the lynx boss with the saber lash, but still..yikes. And yes, a healer should be paying attention to the swing timer and cast bar of the boss. So should everyone, really.[/quote]


i think i made the reference in regards to phase two on Illidan in which case the tank CAN and DOES get gibbed in under 4 seconds flat. The crits can be so massive he doesnt have time to shield wall. And im not talking bout Eye Beams either.

[Stego]

Take into consideration, please, that we've been stuck forever on Mother Shahraz because we progressed too quickly to have enough Hearts of Darkness. :P

[Kalbear]

[quote]i think i made the reference in regards to phase two on Illidan in which case the tank CAN and DOES get gibbed in under 4 seconds flat. The crits can be so massive he doesnt have time to shield wall. And im not talking bout Eye Beams either.[/quote]If your tanks were getting critted, they geared up wrong.

[RaceBannon42]

[quote name='Stego' post='1414781' date='Jun 25 2008, 14.33']Take into consideration, please, that we've been stuck forever on Mother Shahraz because we progressed too quickly to have enough Hearts of Darkness. :P[/quote]
Roflmoa11!!!11 you are TERRIBAD
only one new bosskill in 2 weeks! L2P n00bcakz!



ETA our progression timeline
[quote][size=1]1/22/08 Stegho, Baelor, Allasakar, Felhoof, Silena, and Ezrie reroll level 1 toons on QD and form Fire and Blood a couple of days later.
2/17/08 Pass through The Dark Portal
3/3/08 Hit 70
3/15/08 Fire and Blood runs Kara for the first time. Make it through Curator
3/17/08 Finish clearing Kara
3/22/08 First 25 man raid. Down HKM & Gruul. VR to 20%
3/26/08 Magtheridon downed
3/29/08 Venture into SSC. Lurker Downed. Hydross 30%
4/2/08 Hydross 1 shotted
4/5/08 Void Reaver Down. Solarian Down
4/7/08 Tidewalker 1 shotted. Karathress Down
4/14/08 Leo Down. Vashj 60%
4/21/08 Rage Winterchill 1 shotted. Anetheron Down
4/23/08 Alar Down
4/28/08 Lady Vashj DEAD! FnB now 6/6 SSC!
5/12/08 First time in BT. Najentus, Supremeus, and Shade of Akama Down.
5/21/08 Kael'Thas down. All T5 content cleared.
5/23/08 Kaz'Rogal and Azagalor down.
5/30/08 Archimonde down. Hyjal cleared.
6/1/08 Teron Gorefiend dead.
6/2/08 Gortogg Bloodboil down. RoS to phase 2
6/9/08 Reliquary of Souls Down.
6/23/08 Mother Sharaz Down[/size][/quote]

[Relic]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1414784' date='Jun 25 2008, 15.35']If your tanks were getting critted, they geared up wrong.[/quote]


get to illidan phase two and you will see what i mean. its not a crit persay. but yes,k i forgot you knows all lolz

[Kalbear]

[quote]get to illidan phase two and you will see what i mean. its not a crit persay. but yes,k i forgot you knows all lolz[/quote] If it's not a crit, don't say crit. Not my fault if you don't use words right.

[Stego]

You can take a lot of spike in Phase two, sure, but it's not a crit nor a crush. Motherfucker just hits hard. :P

[Relic]

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1414803' date='Jun 25 2008, 15.45']If it's not a crit, don't say crit. Not my fault if you don't use words right.[/quote]


lol, you know what Kal? Im coming to accept you as you are, and im glad you are around.

[Kalbear]

Aw, thanks, Relic. You have no idea how much that means to me.

[Relic]

[quote name='Stego' post='1414870' date='Jun 25 2008, 16.14']You can take a lot of spike in Phase two, sure, but it's not a crit nor a crush. Motherfucker just hits hard. :P[/quote]


this is phase 2 -

Illidan
Flying (Phase 2)

* Fireball: casting time 2 sec, Deal fire damage 3k-4k in 10 yards radius.
* Eye Beam: 30 second cooldown, putting a blue trail of Demon Fire on the ground. Players standing in this fire when it lands take ~20k fire damage. The Demon Fire trail lasts for 1 minute and deals 2k fire damage per second to players standing in it
* Dark Barrage: 40 sec cooldown, random target, 3k shadow damage per second for 10 seconds



Flames of Azzinoth

* Health: ~ 1 million
* Melee: ~15k fire damage base, average of ~4k/hit with 365 resistance. Cannot crush or be blocked, but can crit, miss and be dodged or parried
* Blaze: AoE dealing 5k fire damage per second, centered on the ground at current target
* Flame Blast: Frontal cone 15 yard AoE for ~9k fire damage
* Charge/Enrage: If any raid member is farther away than 25 yards from *both* Blades, one of the Flames charges that player and enrages, wiping the raid



So you have two tanks, one each on the Flames. When we did it neither of those 2 was the main Illidan tank. When the eye beam comes and your tank is moving around to avoid it its more than likely that he'll eat fire dmg, a blaze, and a melee.

[Stego]

Yep. Lots of damage. Lots of stuff to not stand in. Check. :D

[Relic]

[quote name='Stego' post='1415060' date='Jun 25 2008, 17.26']Yep. Lots of damage. Lots of stuff to not stand in. Check. :D[/quote]


ill give you that phase two of illidan is pretty tricky for tanks =P

as a healer tho ive never been so stressed. my healing gear wasnt t6 either.

[Lyanna Stark]

kalbear,

As I said, our tanks don't overgear the encounter, we match it. :) I imagine it is quite different to roll in there in Tier5-6, which we don't.

Zul'Aman is a continuation of Karazhan, meaning it is beatable in Tier4 gear and some KZ epics. Keyword here being: it IS beatable, it is however not easy, since every healer need to be on his toes or you WILL in fact lose a tank.

I am a good (PvE) healer, I know I am, people claim I am. Not THE best, but I have quicker reaction times than most. I can often time my heals when I have in coming spike damage, but sometimes I don't. The paladin I heal together with is fantastic. And if my paladin brother in healing also did a stop cast, and we get a really bad un tranq-ed saber lash, or get badly silenced on bear, yeah, the tank may well go down. Our main weakness is long cast heals, meaning an un traq-ed Halazzi is easier to heal than Nalorakk, due to the silences. The Halazzi tank we often just spam during solo phase and then you can stopcast during cat add phase. A druid healer won't suffer half as bad, but that's life.

It happened to us last week, our tanks for Nalorakk (one prot warrior, one prot pala) have about 15k unbuffed HP, Tier4 and badge gear (we never really get anything useful in ZA). Nalorakk smacked the tank around, he got an ouch hit, both the paladin and I had trinketed max rank gheal and HL incoming, we both got the silence.....dead tank. It wasn't anything you can really predict, and took less than 3 seconds to happen.

Dunno how that is bad timing, but a pot or a healthstone won't really save you on Bear since well, he hits for insane amounts on a tier4 geared tank. He hits harder than Magtheridon (I've duo healed the same tank on Maggie once when we twelve manned maggie until enrage. Nalorakk is WAY WAY harder to heal and he hits quicker, which is always an issue when your heals are slow.)

I'm not of the opinion that our tanks are undergeared. They match the encounters. We got to Zul'Jin with the same group and did two times events, despite having a wipe on bear.

Three or so weeks ago we had one of our better geared prot warriors take a 22k crushing blow from HKM, just randomly. It happens.


Illidan sounds like an absolute stress-fest to heal. Ouch.

[Stego]

With badge rewards these days, your tanks either greatly outgear your current content or aren't trying in the least, Anna. Dudikoff, for instance, is geared enough for some T6. Desperately needs some shoulders, though.

[Third Knight on the Left]

[quote name='Stego' post='1415880' date='Jun 26 2008, 05.22']With badge rewards these days, your tanks either greatly outgear your current content or aren't trying in the least, Anna. Dudikoff, for instance, is geared enough for some T6. Desperately needs some shoulders, though.[/quote]


This seems right. My character audit says I could reasonably go to the first boss of sunwell even though we've just started SSC.

As far as new's for me Lynx down :), Dragonhawk has been really close, but I think our only Pally tank needs more spell damage or something because I pull way to easily when I AOE in there and well, I die and we don't have enough AOE after that. VR and Lurker have come to a skid because everybody seems to all be on vacation at once.

[Darian Frey]

Wow is serious business. The trouble with being serious is, it's not as much fun.

[Relic]

[quote name='Lyanna Stark' post='1415826' date='Jun 26 2008, 04.29']Illidan sounds like an absolute stress-fest to heal. Ouch.[/quote]


just in phase two and then tank pickups between phases 3 and 4 which repeat in a loop

[Lyanna Stark]

[quote name='Stego' post='1415880' date='Jun 26 2008, 11.22']With badge rewards these days, your tanks either greatly outgear your current content or aren't trying in the least, Anna. Dudikoff, for instance, is geared enough for some T6. Desperately needs some shoulders, though.[/quote]


Heh, the Tier4 shoulders never seem to drop for him, ever. :) Not the mantle of Netherspite as well. We normally have a decent amount of plate drops, but not the shoulders for some bizarro reason.

The tanks we had on the last KZ run was Kasabian and Khalen. It was our prot pally who got gibbed (he's using Commendation of Kaelthas and has Argent Defender so normally he doesn't get gibbed that easily). Healers Qlan, me (Laseen) and Shamit. Same group one shotted all over animal bosses and took Malacrass, so why did the tank die? It just happens.

I'd say our tanks vastly outgear early Tier5 content (tank healing and in-coming damage are normally the least of our problems) but ZA is diffierent due to the concentrated damage the tank takes, making it much, much harder to heal.

As for our tanks getting gibbed on Bear: It's either that it just can happen, or our healing sucks, which I know it doesn't. If it did, we wouldn't down Malacrass. :P It NORMALLY doesn't happen, but it can.

[PhelanArcetus]

[quote name='RaceBannon42' post='1414337' date='Jun 25 2008, 09.58']Of course dps are all dpswhores and always open up with pyroblast/bladeflurry/LoLWFcrit/Whirlwhind as soon as a tank targets a mob... its just our nature. :P[/quote]

Well the LoLWFcrit is kind of out of our control. I just love when I walk up and Crusader Strike, expecting to deal around 3k damage... and deal 8-9K instead. But I can't hold back until it's safe for me to have dealt 9k damage... that's too much delay on my damage curve, and I can't guarantee a massive burst won't happen at any inconvenient time.

In my experience, melee dps has to deal with moving around the most, but this often allows us to ignore threat issues. It is categorically impossible for me to pull aggro on Prince with a decent tank because of all the time I spend running away and running back, for example. On someone like Attumen, I'll likely end up popping Vanish.

In general, tanking and healing have the greater stress; not when you're the third tank on trash, but in general, your actions can make or break the encounter. As dps, that's rare.

I don't consider keeping Demo or Thunderclap up remotely challenging, until a boss decides to resist 4 thunderclaps in a row. Then I just get very angry. But it's automatic. I keep them up even when I have someone else to keep them up for me.

I find I have more overall to manage in a fight going smoothly (assuming it's not lots of targets for me to tank) as dps than as a tank. Can I afford to pop that cooldown yet? Will it get me aggro on the second target (when I can't even tell who the second target is until it starts hitting them)? And so on.

I would agree that depending on class, maxing your dps is something you do by not screwing up and following a rotation properly. But it's not always true. For a rogue, since that's what I dps with the most, I have variables. Let's assume I don't need to feint or vanish. Likewise let's assume I don't have interesting debuffs, or the need to run out. I can stand there and dps. Now I haven't gotten enough expertise (and it's not available at my gear level) to negate dodges, but we'll assume I've got enough to be reasonably confident that I'll always generate my combo points. My primary goals are to keep Slice & Dice active, and following that keep Rupture active. But everything depends on energy flow. And my energy flow is a function of both time and a series of random numbers (because I'm Combat). If I get a few Combat Potency procs, I may be able to adjust things; I just got combo points faster than anticipated, and now I need to adapt. Is that blowing the remaining 10 seconds of my current Slice & Dice to throw up a new 30-second one, popping a new Rupture to overwrite the remaining ticks of the current one, waiting for that Rupture to fall off so I can put this one up? How early can I afford to hit my cooldowns? Can I do it soon enough that I can Blade Flurry a second time?
And that's without running out, being stunned, getting a 75% miss chance (and Christ, is there such a thing as a druid who's capable of finding her decurse button? Seriously?), worrying about threat (because while hunters are allowed to dump every 30 seconds, I need to wait 5 minutes).

Of course, gearwise, it's simple on dps. There's a big spreadsheet which I trust, having gone through its calculations in detail, where I can simply plug in my current gear, expected buffs, talents, and then swap a piece in to see how much of a dps upgrade it is. As a tank, I can calculate what my armor, hp, and various avoidance totals will be, but I can't calculate definitively that gaining X armor is worth losing Y dodge; it varies by fight. Currently I tend towards a threat set and a mitigation set, I don't carry a full avoidance set because no content I do requires it. In fact, I'm considering dropping Anticipation for Cruelty, even though it would cost me 600 health in my threat set. I'd rather have a different item swap, but I need 11 more defense, and there's nothing I have access to that will make that up. If only I'd gotten a Frayed Tether before I stopped doing 25-mans.

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1414574' date='Jun 25 2008, 12.17']Mech without a warlock is hard. Shalls as a warrior or druid without reliable CC is hard. Heroic CoT can be hard depending on the makeup. It's hard because no matter how good you are as a tank, one mistake from DPS or healing or tanking can kill everyone. It's not hard because it's not at all stressful.[/quote]

Try Mech with warrior, warrior, rogue, hunter, priest (without CoH and before it was buffed significantly). Those damn little buggers with the bombs were an almost guaranteed wipe.

[quote name='Stego' post='1414628' date='Jun 25 2008, 13.01']No, it's not hard because there is no complexity. Things do things and you combat it. There are no phases, no complexity, nothing but tank and spank.[/quote]

Well, I sure saw no complexity from my part in the 25-mans I ran. Granted I was third string tank and all... but honestly?
Hydross: I had to grab one guy. DPS had to stop dps. People with DoTs had to time those/stop those earlier.
Lurker: I had to... jump back on the platform, and hit something as soon as it became hittable.
Karathress: I had to stand there hitting one mob and try to bash heals. Then I had to go and hit a different guy and hit totems when they spawned.
Leotheras: I had to run out before whirlwind, and if I got a demon, remember to hit 2 and control 3, not 3 and control 2.
Morogrim: I had to dps him. I helped with murlocs too.
Void Reaver: I had to satisfy myself by generating threat faster than any other tank.

The biggest complexity we encountered was people not knowing how to stop dps when told to. Now granted, I only did one T6 fight, and the complexity there was "don't stand in the Death & Decay".

[quote name='Stego' post='1415880' date='Jun 26 2008, 05.22']With badge rewards these days, your tanks either greatly outgear your current content or aren't trying in the least, Anna. Dudikoff, for instance, is geared enough for some T6. Desperately needs some shoulders, though.[/quote]
Badge rewards make it possible to outgear ZA in most slots pretty easily... should you have the time to get the badges.
I've gotten... 11 badges on three characters since Friday. If you make it a full week, 20 on 3 characters. That's two heroic dailies and a ZA raid. And I haven't been spending 2 days in 25 mans I don't care about. I've just been busy with work and other things. I saw a movie on Friday night. I saw another one on Sunday. I had a D&D game Sunday night, and I needed an early night last night so I could be in and ready for a morning demo today. Now granted, I'm done with real badge tanking items on my warrior already, but I certainly wouldn't call my lack of badge flow me not trying. Perhaps "me not putting WoW progression ahead of my health, job, and personal life". Add in the fact that I seem to be the only one putting mana potions in the guild bank...
Yes, Karazhan is fast. Yes, even with a few welfare people and afks and sloppiness we can do it in 4 hours. I had less than three hours between getting home and going to bed last night.

[quote name='Kalbear' post='1414530' date='Jun 25 2008, 11.53']ETA: and this is even more the case in a 5-man. 5-mans are interesting in that everyone does tend to matter. One DPS can easily wipe the attempt. One healer can. One tank can. It's harder on everyone, at least when you don't outgear the thing completely. The fewer people there are, the less slack you have. The fewer people in your position (tank, heal), the harder it is on you individually.[/quote]

That's why I like 5-mans. It doesn't matter which character I bring, for what, I matter. 3rd prot warrior in raid? I might as well be an arms or fury warrior with tactical mastery, or another feral druid. Ret paladin in raid? My raid utility aside from begging for an enhancement shaman and other group synergy requires paladins who are healing to judge things. Rogue? I hit things. I outdamage everyone because I'm better than them, and it may get me killed. Holy paladin? I'm given someone (or everyone else... if the organizer is dumb) to heal and I ignore everything else. There's no backup if I screw up and lose hold of a mob. Nobody else to taunt it. DPS? If we're equal, I'm close to 30% of the total damage output; that's huge (though I've managed over 22% in a Karazhan run with 6 dps, which seems dangerously high). Healing? I screw up or zone out, the tank is dead. One of the biggest reasons for me leaving the 25-man is that I didn't feel like I mattered. I didn't feel like my presence was meaningful to the group; I could have been replaced with a dps and overall the group would have been better off. (Well, aside from the fact that I'm better than the other tanks and a better dps than many of their dps as well...)

Yes, 90% of that was said. This demo is just starting, an hour late. I needed something to do while waiting.