Worst mother in Westeros

[Halfman]

[quote name='Ealasaid' post='1438271' date='Jul 13 2008, 17.02']Lysa can't help Robert Arryn's physical problems[/quote]

no, but she exacerbated them greatly by making him into a little hypochondriac.

[Tyrion Stark]

[quote name='Halfman' post='1438336' date='Jul 13 2008, 19.28']no, but she exacerbated them greatly by making him into a little hypochondriac.[/quote]

i have to agree with that statement. As with all rereads you pick up more the next time around and one thing I picked up is that Sweetrobin's trembling doesn't start until Lysa prompts them. For example in GOT there is a scene where Lysa says stop with that kind of talk you're scaring him and in which Lord Robert begins to tremble and shake. Maybe he is sickly but I know sickly kids who could kick the crap out of him.

I think Lysa wins because she's not thinking purely for Robert she thinks for herself as well. As were Cersei was thinking of Joffery even if she was utterly wrong and neglected the other two. Sidenote: am I the only one who things Myrcella is worth a damn?

In Sybell's defense she was looking out for the entire family. That does not excuse her just makes it understandable.

[loathsome warg]

Probably Lysa.

As many have mentioned above, she [i]does[/i] care for her son to the point of overprotection, yet at the same time deprives him of a father by murdering Jon Arryn for her own (or Littlefinger's) needs.

Maybe she's trying to make up for her selfishness by being overprotective?

[-sleepy]

I think Lysa was overprotective because they aborted her first one with Littlefinger. I have to agree that Lysa is pretty much the worst mother in Westeros, though.

[LittleFinger6000]

Oh, I like you people. I remember back in the old days when Catelyn was universally hated as a mother figure by board members. I felt like I was fighting a lost cause when defending her, seems like people have finally come around.

Some people like to say she made stupid decisions, which is obviously debatable depending on what side you take. But when I look at her character she most closely resembles what I think of when the word mother comes to mind. She's no manipulator, she genuinely loves her kids and is devoted to them to the end.

But this thread isn't about the best mother. Lysa and Cersei obviously top that list. But the harder part is placing them first and second.

Lysa is obviously deranged, though she does love her dear Sweet Robin. Cersei is clearly power hungry but again, she loves her children. But I think that her love for her childen is almost second to her love for power, maybe even third behind Jaime, depending on what time period you are looking at. For that reason, I place Cersei as the worst mother.

Oh, and I somewhat agree to Sam's mother being on that list. Only a bad mother could be so blind to the fact that her sons journey to the wall was obviously not his own idea and that her husband has been doing some maniplation. But I don't necessarily think that alone is enough reason to call her the worst mother.

As for Sybell Spicer, what she did was no different than Hoster Tully marrying Lysa to Jon Arryn, or Tywin marrying Cersei to Robert. Almost all marriages in Westeros are made for some political gain. I think, at least in the context of Westeros, that marrying your children of is not bad thing, but seen as a wise move on behalf of your family, perhaps even to keep your children safe.

And I don't think we know enough about Mellario to be judging her just yet.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Errant Bard' post='1438115' date='Jul 14 2008, 00.43']And I don't understand the Catelyn nomination, truly. It's like you think she should be on the list but can't find a good reason for it. I don't see Ned called "worse dad of Westeros" for what Sansa did of her own free will and against the education given to her.[/quote]

Well actually, I did provide a good reason for Catelyn being on the list. Sansa is a spoiled brat and didn't even have the sense to realise that Joffrey was a prick (even though Arya realised virtually straight away despite the fact that she is younger). Someone has to be held responsible for Sansa's behaviour and IMO that person is Catelyn.

As to your point that you didn't see Ned being called worst dad for Sansa - well that's just not true. If you read my opening post in the worst dads thread, I suggested Ned as a candidate for worst dad for precisely that reason.

BTW, I actually agree that Catelyn was generally a very good mother - but there are a number of reasons (especially the way she raised Sansa) which justify her inclusion on the list. This doesn't mean she [i]is[/i] the worst mother in Westeros, just that she deserves to be on the shortlist and up for consideration. The other reason I included Catelyn on the list is because (as Littleifinger6000 points out) Catelyn has historically been despised as a mother figure on this board. So for the sake of completeness, Catelyn had to be on the list.

And for those of you who blame Septa Mordane...who was it who hired her? Probably Catelyn.

On a final note, for those of you who disagree with the inclusion of Melessa, Olenna and Mellario - that was just a case of me trying to give people a bit of choice in the matter of who is the worst mother. If I had just included Lysa, Catelyn and Sybell, the discussion would have been a bit limited.

[Burr]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1438066' date='Jul 13 2008, 07.40'][b]Sybell Westerling (Spicer)[/b]: basically forced her daughter to marry Robb just so that she could curry favour with the Lannisters. Mind you, Jeyne didn't seem to mind being the wife of a king (even if it was only for a short time). Still, she did manipulate her daughter to some extent.[/quote]
isn't this just a hypothesis so far?

[Paxter]

[quote name='Curr' post='1438493' date='Jul 14 2008, 11.13']isn't this just a hypothesis so far?[/quote]

It is possible that Jeyne became queen without Sybell's intervention. But once Jeyne was the queen, we definitely know that Sybell became a Lannister lapdog. At Tywin's behest, she ensured that her daughter was not carrying Robb's child. She manipulated her daughter for her family's own gain.

In Jaime's seventh chapter in AFFC: Jaime asks if Jeyne is with child, and Sybell replies that she made sure she did not get with child as Lord Tywin commanded. Jeyne flees from the room crying. Sybell also says that Tywin promised that her daughters would wed lords or heirs.

[Thistle Knight]

There are many fathers in the real world who wish that birth control were 100% effective. And thats with modern medicine. I can't believe that any medieval style method would fare any better.
I think it would be a great story plot if there was a Stark baby and Jaimie, because of his oath, keeps it safe and secret. There seems to be a lot of spite in that house now that Tywin is dead. It would satisfy my interests if they (Tywins children) became the unexpected heroes of the story.

Never the less. Cersie is a bad mother. Jeoffery was vain and capricious, Tommon is weak and and her daughter is proud. In a way i feel sorry for them. They all have to die after all.

Lysa was overly protective. Doesn't make her a bad mother.

Catelyn has given birth to five babies in 15 years. Your can't expect her to have time for all of them. Especially the older ones, Robb, Sansa and Arya. As these three got older they had to be tutored by someone else. Robb by his father and Ser Roderick, and the girls by there septon. When Eddard resigned as Hand he thought of going back to Winterfell and getting is wife pregnant again. The poor woman is a baby making machine so give her a break for God's sake!

[Ouroboros]

Lysa or Sybell.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Thistle Knight' post='1438523' date='Jul 14 2008, 12.16']Lysa was overly protective. Doesn't make her a bad mother.[/quote]

You can't be serious. Overprotective? Lysa's method of motherhood goes way beyond the overprotective. I mean, she is still [i]breastfeeding[/i] the child! Anyone who raises their child to the point where he says things like "mama, I wanna see him fly!" is clearly a bad mother IMO.

[Tyrion Stark]

[quote name='Thistle Knight' post='1438523' date='Jul 14 2008, 00.16']Lysa was overly protective. Doesn't make her a bad mother.[/quote]

Listen to GOT on tape or reread it during the times when you are introduce to Lord Robert and Lady Lysa and say the say the same thing. If you do then i'll look out the window cause pigs must be flying.

[Calanctus]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1438479' date='Jul 13 2008, 19.54']Sansa is a spoiled brat[/quote]
I know, man! Acting like a noble lady and all. Who does that bitch think she is? A Stark?

[King Bronn]

We never even see Catelyn doing any actual parenting of her kids with the exception of Robb. How can you blame her for how anyone turned out? Do you think she taught Arya how to be vengeful killer? Ah, maybe that one just runs in the blood, since Catelyn's all over that these days.

[blackwater]

I would say Lysa but everything she did - she did for love for her son.

[Paxter]

[quote name='blackwater' post='1438599' date='Jul 14 2008, 14.37']I would say Lysa but everything she did - she did for love for her son.[/quote]

Why should that prevent Lysa from being a good candidate for "worst mother"? Just because you [i]intend[/i] to do things to benefit your children does not mean that you are a good mother. Actions as well as intentions define how good a mother a woman is. And Lysa's actions suck. Big time.

Ergo, Lysa is, at the very least, one of the worst mothers in Westeros.

[The Marquis de Leech]

This isn't even close. Lysa is probably second only to Craster as the Worst Parent in Westeros. She has messed up Robert Arryn to an extent where the poor kid will take [i]years[/i] to recover, if he ever does.

[Maia]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1438479' date='Jul 13 2008, 21.54']Sansa is a spoiled brat and didn't even have the sense to realise that Joffrey was a prick (even though Arya realised virtually straight away despite the fact that she is younger). Someone has to be held responsible for Sansa's behaviour and IMO that person is Catelyn.[/quote]

IMHO, that person is Ned. He didn't explain their situation to Sansa, he didn't break the betrothal after that terrible episode in the Riverlands and tried to force Sansa to testify against her betrothed. I dare say that Sansa would have been much more receptive to the notion of not marrying Joff at this point.
But no, Ned intended to keep the deal and Sansa was left to accommodate herself with her future - which she did by absolving her future in-laws. We may not like it, but it was actually the most practical reaction, since it looked like she'd have to spend the rest of her life with them and not Ned and Arya. Women in that society are supposed to cleave to the family they married into and too much loyalty to their birth family is frowned upon - by Ned himself in particular.

Moreover, one may laud Arya for "seeing through" the Lannisters - well she wasn't going to join their family, so there was no reason for her to make allowances. But Ned mishandled her almost as badly as he did Sansa. She was taken along to form connections with the younger "Baratheon" children and other noble children and acquire polish. Instead, she was doing the opposite - aggravating the Lannisters at every turn, running through the wilderness with servants, etc. Well, at least Ned deigned to explain situation to her once things grew really dire - something that he neglected to do with Sansa.
P.S. And BTW, Arya didn't actually "see through " the Lannisters. If she did, Mycah wouldn't have died. Nor did she see that Tommen and Myrcella were basically nice kids, whom it made sense to befriend. Nor did Ned point that out to her. In fact, when all is said and done one can only wonder why Ned took Arya along at all.

[quote]And for those of you who blame Septa Mordane...who was it who hired her? Probably Catelyn.[/quote]

Oh, please! Septa Mordane was a decent teacher where Sansa was concerned. The only thing that was missing was political savvy - and it was Mordane who took Sansa to witness Ned holding court, BTW, and Ned who irritably felt that it was too much for his daughter's pretty head. The fact is, Sansa was only 11 and there appeared to be no reason to force her political education. It is only once Ned took her to KL that this became imperative - and it was Ned's job to do so, as the person much more familiar with politics than a septa. Not that he did a better job with political education of his heir...

One could argue that Mordane was a rather bad teacher for Arya, though.

[LadyOfStormsEnd]

I agree completely with you. Ned was probably thinking that the politics were too much for his daughter pretty little head.
My worst mother is Lysa, I just hate how she mesed up Robert.

[oldnan]

[quote name='Maia' post='1438690' date='Jul 14 2008, 06.11']IMHO, that person is Ned. He didn't explain their situation to Sansa, he didn't break the betrothal after that terrible episode in the Riverlands and tried to force Sansa to testify against her betrothed. I dare say that Sansa would have been much more receptive to the notion of not marrying Joff at this point.
But no, Ned intended to keep the deal and Sansa was left to accommodate herself with her future - which she did by absolving her future in-laws. We may not like it, but it was actually the most practical reaction, since it looked like she'd have to spend the rest of her life with them and not Ned and Arya. Women in that society are supposed to cleave to the family they married into and too much loyalty to their birth family is frowned upon - by Ned himself in particular.[/quote]

I think Ned did fine with his explanation. Instead of behaving like a normal kid who didn't get their way she went to CERSEI. That was uncalled for IMO, she could've protested by not eating, etc. I know she was trained to be a lady but most obeyed their father for good or ill.

Ned did her best to get out of that situation but she insisted on staying in. Can't say I was too sympathetic when the KG beat her, she paid the price for her actions and I'm looking forward to what happens next.