Worst Person in Westeros

[LogicWarrior]

Kind of like the feature on Countdown, who are the three worst people in Westeros?

3. Ser Gregor

cause he's a sociopathic freak, not much to this really

2. Lord Walder Frey

The Red Wedding.

1. LITTLEFINGER

When pushing a woman off of a cliff is the least bad thing a person's ever done, that really says a lot. Started the War of the 5 Kings, killed Jon Arryn and manipulated Eddard Stark to his death, is really really creepy with Sansa, and other stuff I'm probably missing.

[the silent speaker]

I'd replace Old Frey with Euron Greyjoy in my top three.

[The Mango]

Gregor has to be #1.

Littlefinger didn't start the war on his own, he may have helped it along, and had much to gain from it, but so did many others.

Too much happened by chance for me to believe that LF engineered it all.

[Paxter]

1. Ser Gregor Clegane
2. Craster
3. Roose Bolton

If we are talking only living people then:

1. Roose Bolton
2. Walder Frey (Snr.)
3. Cersei Lannister

[LCOTNW]

Our choices probably say more about us than they do about the characters. What kind of behavior do you find the most reprehensible?

I can't put anyone ahead of Gregor Clegane.

There are a lot of conniving bastards like Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, Balon Greyjoy, etc. but at their heart, I think they are acting for preservation of their houses, and maybe they even believe they are doing what is best for the realm. Many have done objectively evil acts. Clearly Jaime throwing Bran from the tower and Littlefinger pushing Lysa from the moon door are evil acts. I am not going to get nitpicky in arguing about whether it is fair to allow for Jaime's regret and redemption, or whether there is anything excusable about Littlefinger's act. Instead, I will just say that none of that stacks up against the basically unrestrained raping, pillaging, torture, and murder of smallfolk throughout the countryside that is the work of Gregor Clegane (on top of his other crimes). He might be the only character in the entire series that is impossible to redeem.

For me, the jury is still out on Littlefinger. I could put him in the #2 slot, but I'm still watching him. I just can't see him as any more evil than Tywin Lannister. Sure Tywin hasn't thrown anyone from a window (personally) in the series, but I would not be at all surprised to learn he was quite brutal in dealing with say, the Reynes. Vargo Hoat is an amoral masochistic bastard. Hard to ignore him on the list. Rorge? The Tickler? These people kill, torture and apparently will even eat people. I think that ranks them in the top 5 for sure.

[Paxter]

[quote name='LCOTNW' post='1471235' date='Aug 7 2008, 14.24']There are a lot of conniving bastards like Littlefinger, Roose Bolton, Tywin Lannister, Walder Frey, Balon Greyjoy, etc. but at their heart, I think they are acting for preservation of their houses, and maybe they even believe they are doing what is best for the realm.[/quote]

Roose Bolton acting "for the preservation of his House"? The survival of House Bolton was not contingent on the deaths of King Robb and his mother! And yet he played an active role in their downfall. He has been acting for the [i]advancement[/i] of his House - not merely its preservation. Moreover, he has been doing so at the expense of other Houses (including the much-maligned Starks) and (potentially) at the expense of the realm. The same goes for Littlefinger, Tywin and Balon - everything they do is for self-advancement and [i]not[/i] self-preservation. And these guys only care about the welfare of the kingdom insofar as it affects their own personal welfare.

IMO Walder Frey is a different kettle of fish. His crimes were brought about by a thirst for revenge rather than a thirst for power. So you can at least argue that he acted for the preservation of the "pride" of his House. Not that this makes his conduct excusable in any way.

[The Marquis de Leech]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1471252' date='Aug 7 2008, 19.35']Roose Bolton acting "for the preservation of his House"? The survival of House Bolton was not contingent on the deaths of King Robb and his mother! And yet he played an active role in their downfall.[/quote]

Robb was done in by his own stupidity (depriving himself of hostage Theon, and breaking his marriage agreement with the Freys). Roose wanted to be on the winning side, saw that Robb was going to lose, and acted accordingly. That does not make Roose a candidate for "worst person in Westeros." It just makes him ruthless and opportunistic.

[stangles]

Qyburn surely has to be in the top 3. He cuts innocent people up while they are alive for research, or his projects. He is like Dr mengele from nazi germany. He is a horrible person. Rorge, Biter, gregor would be others to look at.

[Paxter]

[quote name='Roose Bolton's Pet Leech' post='1471262' date='Aug 7 2008, 15.50']Robb was done in by his own stupidity (depriving himself of hostage Theon, and breaking his marriage agreement with the Freys). Roose wanted to be on the winning side, saw that Robb was going to lose, and acted accordingly.[/quote]

If Roose wanted to be on the winning side, he could also have warned his King of the Frey's plot and the Starks could have dealt with Old Walder accordingly. But because he is a Stark-hating, Frey-loving, money/power-grubbing low-life - he chose to betray his King. He didn't just "see" that Robb was going to lose, he made sure Robb was going to lose.

[redxavier]

Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, Ramsay, the Bloody Mummers, Craster, Alistair Thorne, Janos Slynt. Westeros doesn't lack for despicable people.

And please, Robb was hardly done in by his own stupidity. He made some bad decisions but was [i]betrayed[/i] by opportunistic bastards just as he was setting them right. Bolton, lest we forget, also sacrificed Northern men at Duskendale and drove a sword through his King's heart in violation of all the laws of loyalty and hospitality. It's like excusing Qyburn's antics on the basis that he's really just learning about human anatomy and furthering science...

[Errant Bard]

[quote name='redxavier' post='1471316' date='Aug 7 2008, 11.42'][Robb] was [i]betrayed[/i] by opportunistic bastards just as he was setting them right.[/quote]Just after he betrayed them himself, what a coincidence.

[redxavier]

Let's not exaggerate. "Them" is Walder Frey. Furthermore, Robb only broke part of an agreement with Walder Frey and wounded the old man's pride; it doesn't even approach the Red Wedding in scale or severity. I wouldn't even call it a betrayal. Sansa going to Cersei is more significant a betrayal than the breach of contract that results from Robb marrying Jeyne.

[The Mango]

[quote name='redxavier' post='1471316' date='Aug 7 2008, 05.42']Gregor Clegane, Amory Lorch, Ramsay, the Bloody Mummers, Craster, [b]Alistair Thorne,[/b] Janos Slynt. Westeros doesn't lack for despicable people.[/quote]


What?! I don't know how you could possibly consider him evil.

A complete douche, yes, but he's not an evil person.

[Raff the Sweetling]

Cersei is the #1 worst person. Not that she's more vile than Gregor ar anything, but she has power and a responsibility to the people she rules and that makes her more dangerous.

[LCOTNW]

[quote name='Paxter' post='1471252' date='Aug 7 2008, 02.35']Roose Bolton acting "for the preservation of his House"? The survival of House Bolton was not contingent on the deaths of King Robb and his mother! And yet he played an active role in their downfall. He has been acting for the [i]advancement[/i] of his House - not merely its preservation. Moreover, he has been doing so at the expense of other Houses (including the much-maligned Starks) and (potentially) at the expense of the realm. The same goes for Littlefinger, Tywin and Balon - everything they do is for self-advancement and [i]not[/i] self-preservation. And these guys only care about the welfare of the kingdom insofar as it affects their own personal welfare.[/quote]

Advancement is part of the plan, I'm sure. Advancement and service to people like Tywin and Robb are necessary for self-preservation. Playing both sides is necessary until it is clear who is going to be the winner. I am not discounting that their primary motivation is to promote themselves, as individuals, but to establish continuing power in Westeros, one needs to govern a significant amount of land, lords, and knights. I do personally believe that Stannis, Tywin, and Robb equally believe that they are doing the best for the realm. I don't know what Littlefinger cares about, but it is possible that he cares about more than himself. Time will tell. In any event, Gregor is worse.


[quote name='Paxter' post='1471252' date='Aug 7 2008, 02.35']IMO Walder Frey is a different kettle of fish. His crimes were brought about by a thirst for revenge rather than a thirst for power. So you can at least argue that he acted for the preservation of the "pride" of his House. Not that this makes his conduct excusable in any way.[/quote]

Hmm.... well he extorted Robb to marry into the Freys to promote the power of his house. Robb agreed in order to get his army into play. When Robb betrayed that agreement, Catelyn tells Robb that Walder wanted to be grandfather to a king. There is no doubt that Walder Frey was acting in revenge for the slight to his person, but, like Bolton, I am sure he could see the writing on the wall that Robb was going to lose the war and the Freys were vulnerable to losing their own position unless they did something to appease Tywin. If Walder thought that Robb was going to win the war overall, he would never have set up the Red Wedding.

The difference between Bolton and Frey is not terribly significant to me, at least in terms of explaining their motivations. They want to win.

Cersei and Joffrey set the bar for Lannister evil, and should probably be high on the list.

[pondrthis]

Easy list for me.

1. Gregor Clegane:

Guilty of: Multiple counts of Rape, Infanticide, Murder. A huge asshole who even almost commited Fratricide at a very young age. Queenslayer. (Well, two princesses and a prince.)

2. Mirri Maz Duur:

Dany ordered a man to stop raping her. She brought her safely under her wing. Mirri Maz Duur lets her husband die, kills her unborn child, and lies and betrays Dany in the worst possible way. TRULY EVIL. WAY more backstabbing than Bolton OR Frey, and on a most personal level.

3. Ramsay Snow (NOT Bolton!)
Sadist and child-killer, backstabber of backstabbers.

No matter what you guys say... Jaime Lannister is still up there, somewhere. Barristan was a good enough man to serve two mad kings, and served them faithfully until dismissed. He didn't feel the need to kill Aerys OR Joffrey. Plus, I still hate Jaime.

BEST characters:
Ned Stark
Davos Seaworth
Victarion/Aeron Greyjoy - for their culture, at least.
<List end>

[Jed o' Tarth]

1)Craster
that sick man ruined the lives of all of those women and left their innocent sons to die. He 'ruled' his disgusting little hovel by abusing a slew of people who had no way to get out. the way he died was to good for him. he *deserved* to find himself a victim of Qyburn after what he did.


2)Qyburn
again, another sick man. as already stated... someone who can disect innocent people alive for his own curiosity.

3)Gregor
I only list him third because i do not think his victim list is as terrible as Qyburn's or as personally and continually devistating as Craster's. Yeah, he killed a lot of people on the field, but that's what's expected of a warrior. the victims i mean are the innocent people her perosonally killed in torturous and vile manners, not to mention all of the women he raped.

[LCOTNW]

[quote name='pondrthis' post='1471745' date='Aug 7 2008, 12.43']2. Mirri Maz Duur:[/quote]

If we expand beyond the 7 kingdoms, I would want to add Kraznys Mo Nakloz (perhaps as representative of all the slavers). I'm currently rereading the series and just passed the part where Dany gets the Unsullied, so the description of unsullied training (killing infants, strangling puppies, carving out nipples, etc) is fresh in my mind. Slaving is its own special kind of evil on top of all that.

[pondrthis]

Oops. Forgot this was worst person in WESTEROS. Thanks for calling me out :cheers: .

[The Mango]

IMO craster did what he thought was necessary to survive. And in fact the sacrifice of his sons probably WAS necessary to appease the Others.

He was a bad person to be sure, but I don't think he's anywhere near the most evil in the series.

[quote]Victarion/Aeron Greyjoy - for their culture, at least.[/quote]

Both of these men are rapists and murderers, and lead their men to sack defenseless towns killing many and enslaving more, probably leaving just enough to re-establish the town so they can sack it again a few years later.

There are people who seem like genuinely good men in the Iron Islands, Rodrik Harlaw seems alright, but the culture of the Ironmen ensures they are few and far between.