George RR martin faults...

[Vintertroll]

About the wall and height: But do they do all the fighting from on top of the wall? Don't they have some sort of fort where the gate is as well, by Castle Black?

Making the wall that tall is really a mistake, though (...but imagine how cool it will look on a TV screen!). I think some things in fantasy literature should be unnatural, like the use of magical creatures and magic, because such things are impossible in itself. But when we are talking about people, buildings, weapons, fighting and such stuff that are supposed to be similar to the actual conditions in the middle age, it would be wrong to change too much of that stuff if it is supposed to be realistic, and not surreal. The advantage that Martin has got here is of course that most people wouldn't notice the impossibility of fighting from a 700 feet tall wall, because most people don't know too much about the range of an arrow... Including myself.

[Berserk]

Uhm, I do not understand the British English complaint, to be honest. Westeros is not set in Medieval England. It is a work of fantasy, and the characters are born to cultures that remind us of the real world, but are not of the real world. Do you want Martells to start speaking Spanish or something?

The Martell's are Arabs, not Latin people.

[The_BlauerDragon]

The Martell's are Arabs, not Latin people.

You Killed Her Dirka Dirka! Dirka Muhamed Jihad Her Child Dirka Dirka! Dirka Say Her Name Dirka Dirka!!!

[Bazzlebane]

The Martell's are Arabs, not Latin people.

Actually, no, they are Dornish, which is a blend of Andals and the Rhoynar who live in the southern end of Westeros.

[Raff the Sweetling]

Well he was just refuting the facts that you brought out first, the horizontal vs. vertical distance. You can't use real-life physics for your side of the argument then get all huffy when he tells you your facts are wrong

This ^ type of reasoning is what bothers me. You talk about "real life physics" for an arrow shot. Well your right I cant back them up, but You cant give any "real life physics" about a dragon, but that doesnt bother you. Im not getting huffy, I just think its a ludicrous and hypocritical way to pick and choose what is "realistic".

(yes we are all obviously fans or we wouldnt be here.) On that we can agree.

[Kalbear]

It's called suspension of disbelief, Raff. It's a lot easier to suspend disbelief at obviously fantastical and magical things that do not operate using normal physics than it is to suspend disbelief at obviously normal things that do operate using normal physics.

The general view is that the realistic parts stay anchored in realism to give the audience a basis for participating in the story. The fantastical parts stay different to showcase the weirdness. If you want to make the real fantastical, make sure that you explain it as such; make the bows special elfin bows or otherbows or made of some amazing wood with wierd properties, because otherwise it is assumed that they're going to act like what we would expect.

Truly, it sounds like you're being a sheltered fanboy for the sake of being a fanboy. Really, you're arguing because some things are magic in the world, all things can be whatever they want to be? What an odd way to enjoy a novel.

[Raff the Sweetling]

Apparently everyone on this board is much smarter than me. I cant come up with arrow velocities and scientific proof. Let alone theories like suspension of disbelief. I'll let you guys win the argument, because these things dont matter to me personally, but its all these points I mentioned that give Sci-fi and fantasy readers the reputation of geeks and dorks. So I guess I'll just go on being a "fanboy".

[fionwe1987]

Do we need to know how she licked off his semen? No. It's called character development, and strengthens the tone of sex that is rather strong in her character. These 'gross' details also add reality, since, guess what: sex is a huge part of society and life.

That's not a flaw on Martin's part, it's just that you overreact to things you haven't accepted as a natural part of life. People lick sperm, deal with it. People get raped, and hurt. Bad shit happens in life, if you exclude that from writing you exclude a huge part of reality. It's the 'gross' things in SoIF that make it so real.

That is character development? Really? So, without this, you would have had no clue that Cersei was obsessed with her looks and used her attractiveness to get what she wanted? Didn't her sleeping with Lancel and the Kettleblacks say enough about her?

And we knew she hated her husband, and it would have been sufficient for her to say she hadn't let him enter her, for fear of bearing his children. The rest is gross and unnecessary.

And no, its not that I don't accept that this is a part of life. I know rape happens, I know violent stuff happens, that does not mean that to let me know that his world is as real, Martin has to reveal every detail. Tell us it happens, yes, describe it, no. If what you say is true, why don't we have descriptions of Quyburn's "experiments" on un-Gregor and all those poor people sent to him by Cersie? That is as much a part of life as rape and violence are. However, I find what Martin did with Quyburn excellent. We know what he does, since we are told, and our imagination provides the rest.

This constant hankering for detailed descriptions of violence, rape and incest to be immature and silly. Those reading Martin's books know about these things, and Martin doesn't have to describe all this in detail for us to understand the horror involved with these experiences. The presence of these descriptions cheapens the books, IMO, and reduces their value.

[The_BlauerDragon]

All I will say in response to this is that there may be something about Qyburn's experiments that would have been a spoiler to future events if they'd actually been described in detail. I think the grossest thing I remember first encountering (not grossest overall, just the first real shocker) was Dany's wedding consumation. I read the graphic detail horrified with the knowledge of the character's ages and the details of the arrangement and I felt sick to my stomach, but... it was EXACTLY GRRM's willingness to say "F You!" to the accepted norms and delve into the nitty gritty from time to time that first hooked me on the series. Other authors would have mentioned these things happened, but would not have dared to give us graphic accounts of them. I would have read those other authors' books and moved on without really caring whether or not the next one ever came out, I would not have joined a web-forum to discuss their books, and if I heard those books were going to be made into movies I'd have shrugged it off with a "maybe I'll rent it and check it out sometime when it's on DVD". So, to me... all that horrible, nasty detail was the most essential element of the whole thing.

[fionwe1987]

All I will say in response to this is that there may be something about Qyburn's experiments that would have been a spoiler to future events if they'd actually been described in detail. I think the grossest thing I remember first encountering (not grossest overall, just the first real shocker) was Dany's wedding consumation. I read the graphic detail horrified with the knowledge of the character's ages and the details of the arrangement and I felt sick to my stomach, but... it was EXACTLY GRRM's willingness to say "F You!" to the accepted norms and delve into the nitty gritty from time to time that first hooked me on the series. Other authors would have mentioned these things happened, but would not have dared to give us graphic accounts of them. I would have read those other authors' books and moved on without really caring whether or not the next one ever came out, I would not have joined a web-forum to discuss their books, and if I heard those books were going to be made into movies I'd have shrugged it off with a "maybe I'll rent it and check it out sometime when it's on DVD". So, to me... all that horrible, nasty detail was the most essential element of the whole thing.

I found that incident horrifying too, and it seemed so pointless to show us the details. The act itself tells us that Dany's life is not all "happy little princess", but did the description serve any purpose other than making people think "Martin doesn't care for the "accepted" norms"? No. When such description is done with the sole intention of proving that the author can be different, without any actual need for it, I only feel disgusted.

For me, these scenes are the reason why the series isn't out and out the best I've read. All the gore also makes re-reads a chore. I'm not attracted to the books, and that's solely because of the overdescribed gore. I love the books for its characters, plotting and dialogue, despite all this.

I guess people just see things differently.

[Ran]

lee1026,

Yeah, I made a pretty bad mistake there. I think I multiplied somewhere when I should have divided. However, if you are shooting horizentally and you can get that kind of speed, then you should be able to shoot v^2/g feet, or about 1188 feet, which is completely out of the scope of the medival bowmen.

Actually... Turkish bows using flight arrows (very long, very light arrows with small fletchings) were claimed to be able to go twice that distance, and there are sources that claim a maximum (but not an effective) range for the medieval longbow of 400 yards.

[Gerold Hightower]

You talk about "real life physics" for an arrow shot. Well your right I cant back them up, but You cant give any "real life physics" about a dragon, but that doesnt bother you

A dragon is a Fantasy creature, magic by definition. An arrow on the other hand is just an arrow, so unless it's explicitly stated to be a magic arrow it's subject to the laws of physics. Magic is a way to get around physics but physics is still there.

[L'Sana]

The "it's all fake, who cares" attitude is why 99 percent of Fantasy is such junk. An author can take liberties, but they have to do it sparingly or the story just isn't credible.

This point always drives me nuts among critics of sci-fi and fantasy. I accept that some liberties need to be taken for the sake of the story, and that there is magic that causes things to work a little differently. I've always thought of it in terms of Star Trek: Warp drive is likely impossible, but without it, there would be no story. So I accept it so that story can move forward. The transporter isn't any more realistic, but they needed a cheap way to get from the ship to the planets. I accept that. Then we have the episodes where we freeze things to below absolute zero. That's just dumb.

Likewise, we need to have Dragons and Others and mysterious shadow magic in ASOIF to move the story forward. So we accept it. But there is no reason that we need to have "super bows" capable of firing at the speed of modern rifles. So we mock them.

It also relates to the world Martin created. In Wheel of Time, where if you pick up a dagger off the streets it's probably magical, I could accept the "super bows and their magic arrows" more easily. But Martin has tried very hard to create a comparatively low magic world where most things are as they are in the real world. So when he has something that obviously isn't realistic, we notice it and usually dislike it.

[Guarneri]

That is character development? Really? So, without this, you would have had no clue that Cersei was obsessed with her looks and used her attractiveness to get what she wanted? Didn't her sleeping with Lancel and the Kettleblacks say enough about her?

And we knew she hated her husband, and it would have been sufficient for her to say she hadn't let him enter her, for fear of bearing his children. The rest is gross and unnecessary.

And no, its not that I don't accept that this is a part of life. I know rape happens, I know violent stuff happens, that does not mean that to let me know that his world is as real, Martin has to reveal every detail. Tell us it happens, yes, describe it, no. If what you say is true, why don't we have descriptions of Quyburn's "experiments" on un-Gregor and all those poor people sent to him by Cersie? That is as much a part of life as rape and violence are. However, I find what Martin did with Quyburn excellent. We know what he does, since we are told, and our imagination provides the rest.

This constant hankering for detailed descriptions of violence, rape and incest to be immature and silly. Those reading Martin's books know about these things, and Martin doesn't have to describe all this in detail for us to understand the horror involved with these experiences. The presence of these descriptions cheapens the books, IMO, and reduces their value.

It's a simple concept called reinforced character development. The series spans 4 books, and unless you re-read often most people won't remember all the character details from, say, Game of Thrones, when reading AFfC. Which is why Martin reinforces the character tones, habits, etc, in case the reader forgets details about that character. And adding new ones continues to flesh them out. Cersei licking away the heirs was a great deal of character development! It says so much about her, in such a simple sentence. It shows her hatred for Robert, (yes it was stated before, but it elaborates and further proves her loathing of him), and of her marriage, how she doesn't view him as worthy of fathering her children, and that she has a sick, and twisted mind, with many sexual overtones.

All of that in a sentence, it's magnificent, really. If he took it out George would be a poorer writer for it.

Perhaps you forget that writing's main purpose is to give people visions of the story. Which is why he goes into detail about the sex, the food, etc, so that it's real to us, and makes the story seem real. Sensory imagery does wonders. Showing the story, and not telling it, is the mark of a both a great story and a talented writer.

Gore is a matter of taste, I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't reflect on the writing or excellence of SoIF, it merely reflects your personal taste.

[MattTVI]

This point always drives me nuts among critics of sci-fi and fantasy. I accept that some liberties need to be taken for the sake of the story, and that there is magic that causes things to work a little differently. I've always thought of it in terms of Star Trek: Warp drive is likely impossible, but without it, there would be no story. So I accept it so that story can move forward. The transporter isn't any more realistic, but they needed a cheap way to get from the ship to the planets. I accept that. Then we have the episodes where we freeze things to below absolute zero. That's just dumb.

Likewise, we need to have Dragons and Others and mysterious shadow magic in ASOIF to move the story forward. So we accept it. But there is no reason that we need to have "super bows" capable of firing at the speed of modern rifles. So we mock them.

It also relates to the world Martin created. In Wheel of Time, where if you pick up a dagger off the streets it's probably magical, I could accept the "super bows and their magic arrows" more easily. But Martin has tried very hard to create a comparatively low magic world where most things are as they are in the real world. So when he has something that obviously isn't realistic, we notice it and usually dislike it.

This and some of the other points in line with it are things I've been thinking about for a while, and it's nice to see them articulated from other folks' thoughts as well.

We expect a certain amount of realism in our fantasy works, but we also like unrealistic aspects as well, that's why we read fantasy. We want realistic personality traits in our hero, but we might forgive his ability to kill ten men w/ his bare hands... so to speak.

The same applies w/ the laws of physics in fantasy, they should work as they do in our world unless otherwise specified by the author or affected (effected) by magic, the supernatural, etc...

anyway, good read, and as for Martin's "flaws," they are all minor, imo, and ASoIaF is a master piece (so far) as far as I'm concerned!

thanks george!

[lee1026]

Actually... Turkish bows using flight arrows (very long, very light arrows with small fletchings) were claimed to be able to go twice that distance, and there are sources that claim a maximum (but not an effective) range for the medieval longbow of 400 yards.

However, that is 600 feet, and that is already rather far fetched for an arrow to reach that high. Add 200 to that will push it to the realm of impossible. Besides, if you want to kill someone on the ground, you get have to get the arrow there, as the fall is going to give some of its speed back. If you actually want to kill someone on the wall, you have to get it there with some respectable amounts of speed, or else it is just going to glance off of the skin. Besides, I don't think that the wildings are capable of doing much advanced engineering with respect to bows and arrows, which is required for the turks and to a lesser extent te longbow.

[Guarneri]

Can't we just agree that George let the ball drop on physics?

Kinda' like many authors make maps with ridiculous geography.

Fantasy authors often don't know these things, or by either laziness or accident don't study them.

Shit happens, and Martin could just fix it in future editions.

[saskganesh]

the guy has no idea on how to write a lesbian sex scene. those are turtledove bad.

[Guarneri]

the guy has no idea on how to write a lesbian sex scene. those are turtledove bad.

Which is odd, since you'd think that'd be the most enjoyable form of research.

Seriously, I wish I could look at lesbian porn with the excuse of "novel research"

[fionwe1987]

It's a simple concept called reinforced character development. The series spans 4 books, and unless you re-read often most people won't remember all the character details from, say, Game of Thrones, when reading AFfC. Which is why Martin reinforces the character tones, habits, etc, in case the reader forgets details about that character. And adding new ones continues to flesh them out. Cersei licking away the heirs was a great deal of character development! It says so much about her, in such a simple sentence. It shows her hatred for Robert, (yes it was stated before, but it elaborates and further proves her loathing of him), and of her marriage, how she doesn't view him as worthy of fathering her children, and that she has a sick, and twisted mind, with many sexual overtones.

Um... no. Quite apart from this line, almost every Cersie chapter in aFFC reinforced Cersie's hatred for Robert. Her reluctance to marry Robert, and her dreams of wedding Rhaegar are there as well. We are also told that Cersei never allowed Robert to enter her for fear of getting with his child. That tells us enough about her feeling that Robert wasn't worthy of fathering her children. As for her sick twisted mind with sexual overtones, every Cersie POV reinforces that, or didn't you notice?

So this really was a pretty pointless statement, there only to show that the author can dare to defy tropes.

All of that in a sentence, it's magnificent, really. If he took it out George would be a poorer writer for it.

You found that sentence magnificent?

Perhaps you forget that writing's main purpose is to give people visions of the story. Which is why he goes into detail about the sex, the food, etc, so that it's real to us, and makes the story seem real. Sensory imagery does wonders. Showing the story, and not telling it, is the mark of a both a great story and a talented writer.

If it is so great and important, why is Martin so selective about it? Why not give us a detailed description of Joff dissecting a pregnant cat? Or Renly and Loras sleeping together? Why here and not there?

And have you heard of authors leaving things to people's imagination? Have you read works where without going into the specifics, the author gives the readers just enough to imagine an event? Have you seen how much more powerful the effect can be without the author going into the sordid details?

Martin himself does it. The image of Cersei as a sick, twisted megalomaniac existed quite vividly well before this sentence came up. He does the same with Quyburn. The effect of the man torturing many innocents is there precisely because the whole thing is obfuscated by shadows. Fear of the unknown, etc.

The problem with over described gore is that revulsion for the character perpetrating the act swiftly changes to a revulsion for the text itself, making it tough to re-read and savor.

These descriptions in the books are inelegant and tedious, and a black mark against what is otherwise a brilliant series.

Gore is a matter of taste, I'm sorry you don't like it, but it doesn't reflect on the writing or excellence of SoIF, it merely reflects your personal taste.

That is nonsense, or close to it. Everything, in the end, is a matter of taste, and an author, who is primarily an entertainer, has to cater to the tastes of his readers.

That is not to see that the readers can dictate what he puts in the books. But if he puts something that readers do not like, then he certainly can be questioned about it.

The excellence of any work is not based on the author thinking it is excellent. We, as readers decide that.

Now, no one in their right minds would say Martin is bad, but the point of this thread was to see what aspects of his work were disliked. The topic reads: "George RR martin faults..., What do you NOT like about his writing."

In any reply to such a topic, the poster will only mention those things which she/he dislikes about the author's writing. And that is obviously going to be a matter of taste.