George RR martin faults...

[Innominandum]

Where did this come from? I kept on seeing it and challenging anybody to cite the SSM but nobody did. I suspected it was bunk.

Sorry if it was not clear, I have no idea where it comes from, but from the discussions where this quote has been questioned, I consider it as a fact that it is something invented or misunderstood.

[Slynt]

It is strange to see comments about characters being separated because I think one major flaw is the fact that all these characters actually meet up in many instances, or that you can trace long lines from one character to another.

Examples: Arya and Sam (this one is so blunt that it must have been added to foreshadow a future meeting between them); Brienne meets a whole host of characters - Catelyn, Jaime, the bloody mummers, Gendry, Renly, Loras, etc etc who are all interconnected. Don't know if I am clear but yeah I think there's too much interconnection.

[Ealasaid]

Sorry if it was not clear, I have no idea where it comes from, but from the discussions where this quote has been questioned, I consider it as a fact that it is something invented or misunderstood.

I could have sworn I read it on a SSM. It's been referred to - I honestly can't remember from whence it come.

Slynt,

I understand that people meeting up seems contrived, Especially Arya and Sam. But the other folks are wandering around in a fairly small area, so it doesn't seem particualry odd to me. My two groats worth.

[sio]

George R. R. Martin's work is the only literature I have read that I can find no fault with. Seriously, I can't think of anything that I don't like about A Song of Ice and Fire.

[Intercept]

This man is without a doubt my most favriote author.

That said, i do believe he has some imperfections.

He...to a lesser degree has a fault stephen king has with some of his novels(see eyes of the dragon and see IT. In eyes of the dragon the prince Peter is almost perfect, and in IT there is a long description of Bill being pure and having an aura of goodness)

He usually has one or two charecters who are perfect in every way.

Lyanna: From what we know, she was good hearted but was fierce, was tough but also really sexy, and fell in love and bagged the most handsome man in the kingdom. Give us some dirt man! I love Tyroin because he is clean AND dirty!

Rheager: SO FAR we get an image of a sad sad guy who is just has it hard. He is often shown as super handsome and super kind and a top rate fighter. Got to admit, i kind of like him but...he seems too flawless.

Dany:uh...read the 'hate to the targs' thread in the other section.

Jon:Toooo lazy to explain.

This is by no means makes him a bad writer, it isnt even a big deal. I like some of these guys, and sometimes, it helps the story move smoothly.

He is my favriote author, so dont flame me thinking im trying to be an ass.

What have you guys noticed?

To be perfectly honest with you? People like Jon Snow exist. I know because I've met them. There are guys out there who are just genuinely good, honest and quite honorable. There are guys like Rhaegar who have it all too, and girls like Lyanna.

What I like about George RR Martin is that he presents those sort of people in a realistic way, not a high-brow way of infallible elves or evil demons fighting for some epic notion of messianic salvation or utter destruction. They act so because of their upbringing, comrades or self-preservation.

I don't like how every POV character seems to have the same sort of sly, sarcastic humor and snide remarks. It's fun reading about people being snarky, but you lose the impact of "Wow this is Jaime" and "Wow this is Littlefinger" when they laugh at the same jokes and throw the same insults. That's another thing -- sometimes characters feel too similar to each other. Littlefinger feels like what George RR Martin thought Tyrion would be like until he got the idea it'd be more interesting to make Tyrion a dwarf.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The main thing GRRM has ever said about the ending is that it'll be bittersweet.

I live in perpetual hope that GRRM will give us the ultimate cliche-breaking ending: a victory for the Others. Sadly, I don't think that would qualify as "bittersweet."

[The Sword of Early Afternoon]

Quibble with the best writing by the best writer ever??? Sure, why not!

Though I assume I'm wrong and GRRM actually made the right call, based on what we've seen so far I would say that the originally-planned 5-year gap would have worked better than the current plan. Let the kids grow up, use a lot of flashbacks. Failing that, I would've much preferred a book 4 that showed all POVs, even if there wasn't a good resolution/end-point between 4 and 5. My single favorite aspect of the series is the jaw-dropping scale -- the jumping around from the East to Pyke to the Wall to Dorne, and all the POVs in between. The shortcomings of AFFC vs the 1st 3 were magnified by the feeling that it was half a book. For example, all the new POVs would've been more diluted if we'd had all the familiar POVs, too. 'Nuff said.

None of the language stuff that people have mentioned in this thread bothers me a bit. Nuncle and Groat me all day, no problem.

My other 3 quibbles are all around actions that to me seem out-of-character:

1. JAIME DROPS BRAN

I've read all the spin, but I'll never buy that it was consistent for Jaime to drop Bran, based on all we see from Jaime later. (We're supposed to believe he didn't even pause to make sure that's what Cersei really wanted!) Yes, Jaime develops a lot in ASoS, but even the Jaime we're introduced to in him first POV chapter wouldn't kill a child, IMHO. I think in hindsight that Bran chapter in AGOT could've been written differently to make it work. It would've seemed more consistent for Jaime to hesitate and for Cersei to somehow do it. She's killed lots of kids who threatened her family.

2. SANDOR KILLS MYCAH

Similarly, everything later indicates that he would've brought the boy back for punishment, not ride him down and kill him himself. At the trial in the hollow hill this act was Sandor's only known crime, and it doesn't smell right. We need more to make this detail believable -- and it wasn't apparently necessary plot-wise anyhow.

3. BOLTON'S EXPLANATION FOR HOAT CUTTING OFF JAIME'S HAND

Hoat likes maiming people; I guess I can can buy that. But Roose Bolton's explanation to Jaime in ASoS for why it was smart for Hoat to do it makes no sense whatsoever, which really bothers me. Any way you slice it (sorry) the act weakens Hoat's position. And if Bolton was lying for some reason, then why doesn't Jaime at least register the fact that it sounds like BS?

Don't get me wrong; I like violence. I'd love more of it! But it needs to make sense and be consistent.

To sum up: ASoIaF is the greatest work of literature ever written and I wouldn't change a thing.

[Ran]

Sword,

Welcome to the board.

I've a very different opinion on your list, mostly based on txtual things. In ACoK, Jaime _says_ he would have gone to kill Bran in his bed, if Cersei told him it was necessary. Hence, he is not put off by the idea of killing a child -- at least, not for his sister and for himself and (vaguely) for their children. At that particular moment, he just acted to protect himself and his family. Cersei would have tried to do it by wheedling and lying, but Jaime is a man bred to violence, and (as we know) violence was his typical solution to problems.

As to killing Mycah, in ACoK Sandor says he's killed all sorts of people, "High lords with old names, fat rich men dressed in velvet, knights puffed up like bladders with their honors, yes, and women and children too..." So, this is in character for him, unless you want to believe he's lying (and I don't really see why he would).

Hoat's reasons as explained by Roose do make sense to me. It boils down to the fact that he was afraid of Jaime getting ahold of a sword and wanting to send Tywin something to convince him to save the rest of his son and send him a big pile of gold, so that he could then sell Jaime to the Karstarks and get away to Karhold. Hoat was betting on safety in the North, which Jaime was the gateway to, but he was also trying to bet on getting some money out of it. In that, he probably made a mistake, letting his greed run away with him.

[TheSeedisStrongest]

I think all three of those made sense, especially the hound. Sandor is an evil man. People forgive him b/c he had a bad past and may redeem himself, but the truth is still there.

[Uzumaki_Kiba]

I dunno, folks are saying Sandor's so evil, there's no reason he wouldn't kill Mycah. But Sandor has been shown to be nice on other occasions. I mean... Maybe not necessarily nice, but not all crazy murderous, either. He killed because he was loyal. But after he sheds his loyalties, he's a decent guy.

I guess maybe he was loyal to a fault, and if he was commanded to kill Mycah, that's what he would have done. But if that wasn't the direct command, then yes... It was a bit inconsistent.

[Intercept]

I dunno, folks are saying Sandor's so evil, there's no reason he wouldn't kill Mycah. But Sandor has been shown to be nice on other occasions. I mean... Maybe not necessarily nice, but not all crazy murderous, either. He killed because he was loyal. But after he sheds his loyalties, he's a decent guy.

I guess maybe he was loyal to a fault, and if he was commanded to kill Mycah, that's what he would have done. But if that wasn't the direct command, then yes... It was a bit inconsistent.

I like him because he's not necessarily evil. He doesn't see the world as good or evil -- he sees it as weak and strong. People to him are meat, and only the strong deserve to eat.

Mycah to him was meat. He took pleasure in the kill, not the fact that he killed a kid.

[Atreides]

Yeah, Sandor likes killing, but he also has a compassionate side that he shows mainly with Sansa, but a bit with Arya too when he chases her down to stop her from running into the Twins during the Red Wedding, even though he knows very well that what's going on inside will severely weaken his chance of getting a ransom.

[mormont]

Yeah, I think the thing people miss about Jaime and Sandor is that they are not misunderstood heroes, and they are not pretending to be bad people. They really are bad people. It's not a front to hide their 'true nature', and it's not a rep they hide behind: they're genuinely ruthless killers. Maybe you can argue they became so in reaction to external events, and maybe they show signs that it's not all they are, but that doesn't change the facts.

[sio]

Yeah, I think the thing people miss about Jaime and Sandor is that they are not misunderstood heroes, and they are not pretending to be bad people. They really are bad people. It's not a front to hide their 'true nature', and it's not a rep they hide behind: they're genuinely ruthless killers. Maybe you can argue they became so in reaction to external events, and maybe they show signs that it's not all they are, but that doesn't change the facts.

Like many characters in Song, they are a shade of grey, IMO. Dark grey maybe, but grey nevertheless.

[bastard guidon]

My current and only beef with GRRM is that he has what Abe Lincoln said of George McClellan: A case of the "slows." I feel compelled to raise this issue after seeing that RJ has reached the light at the end of the tunnel. It is reported that he was much at it, trying to get his final book done up to the end and left considerable instructions that should permit its eventual publication in some form. I seem to recall him stating that he has made no such provision. It would be much appreciated if he would take steps to prevent his epic from being left unfinished. :cry:

"Ah, my friend, life is indeed precious. Especially, when one cannot have it." - Surat Khan to Major Geoffrey Vickers of the 27th Lancers.