Shae and Tywin

[alguien]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1558247' date='Oct 16 2008, 11.50']It’s a clasp. Please check your facts. Making a blunder is understandable. Correcting somebody else needs homework.[/quote]

Wow, take your own advice:

[url="http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/0000ptw5/"]http://pics.livejournal.com/grrm/pic/0000ptw5/[/url]

:P

[Lady Blackfish]

In the books it is a clasp:

[i]Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office.[/i] -- AGOT, Eddard VIII

I guess for the sculpture they thought a chain would be easier.

[Ran]

Yes, I'm afraid there's some artistic license in all depictions based on ASoIaF, even those licensed from GRRM and with his input. He doesn't believe in shackling artists too much. :)

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1558180' date='Oct 16 2008, 17.44']What? Where is your evidence for this? How often has he said so?[/quote]
Off the top of my head, Varys suggests to Tyrion that he kill Varys (and Littlefinger and Pycelle) when he takes office, should they give any trouble. “Heads. Spikes.” That’s the last Tyrion chapter in [i]Game[/i], beginning “They have my son.” Tyrion reflects on this later, thinking he should have killed Varys when he arrived in KL. Tywin makes a similar comment in his death scene, which you discount.
[quote]What are you talking about? When was he on a knife's edge? I never got the impression that his career was in jeopardy.[/quote]
Varys to Tyrion:
[quote]How long do you think she would let me live if I were of no further use to her whatsoever? I have no fierce sellsword to protect me, no valiant brother to avenge me, only some little birds who whisper in my ear. With those whisperings I must buy my life anew each day.[/quote]
This is about Cersei, not Tywin, but it to me mildly suggests that his career is in jeopardy. You may read “buy my life anew each day” differently. At Tywin’s return, Varys work very hard to make himself useful, there is a nice scene where he even reports intelligence from inside the Citadel about Pycelle’s restoration.

[alguien]

[quote name='Lady Blackfish' post='1558292' date='Oct 16 2008, 12.21']In the books it is a clasp:

[i]Ned unfastened the heavy clasp that clutched at the folds of his cloak, the ornate silver hand that was his badge of office.[/i] -- AGOT, Eddard VIII

I guess for the sculpture they thought a chain would be easier.[/quote]

Ah. Since George posted the bust image on his livejournal, then specifically commented on the question of the necklace, I thought he approved of it as well.

After checking, all GRRM says in the comments section, when specifically responding to a query about the Golden Chains necklace, was, "Ned's badge of office was simpler," which, looking at your quote above, I now take to mean it was a clasp in the book, but GRRM approved for silver chain in the bust.

[Happy Ent]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1558259' date='Oct 16 2008, 18.58']Wow, take your own advice:[/quote]
My jaw drops.

[alguien]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1558304' date='Oct 16 2008, 12.30']Off the top of my head, Varys suggests to Tyrion that he kill Varys (and Littlefinger and Pycelle) when he takes office, should they give any trouble. “Heads. Spikes.” That’s the last Tyrion chapter in [i]Game[/i], beginning “They have my son.” Tyrion reflects on this later, thinking he should have killed Varys when he arrived in KL. Tywin makes a similar comment in his death scene, which you discount.[/quote]

So, to clarify, you have one comment. Referring to traitors in general, not to Varys in particular, also contingent on the fact that Tyrion must first find evidence that they're betraying the Lannister cause. No way at all indicative of a plan by Twyin to kill Varys.

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1558304' date='Oct 16 2008, 12.30']Varys to Tyrion:
This is about Cersei, not Tywin, but it to me mildly suggests that his career is in jeopardy. You may read “buy my life anew each day” differently. At Tywin’s return, Varys work very hard to make himself useful, there is a nice scene where he even reports intelligence from inside the Citadel about Pycelle’s restoration.[/quote]

Yeah, its about Cersei, at no point does he makes specific reference to his career [u]growing[/u] more and more in jeopardy due to Twyin or other circumstances.

[Happy Ent]

Nadie, the main argument for the enmity between Tywin and Varys comes from their backstory under King Aerys’s reign. For example, Varys specifically counselled Aerys to not open the gates to Lord Tywin. (Pycelle overruled him.) He also fed the mad king’s paranoia. Many of us assume that Varys thought his days numbered the moment Tywin returned to Kings Landing. You may disagree, that’s fine. These major story arcs (who is a Targaryen loyalist and who isn’t, and which of the characters know what about whom) are far out in speculation-land, and there’s pretty little evidence for or against.

[alguien]

[quote name='Happy Ent' post='1558325' date='Oct 16 2008, 12.43']Nadie, the main argument for the enmity between Tywin and Varys comes from their backstory under King Aerys’s reign. For example, Varys specifically counselled Aerys to not open the gates to Lord Tywin. (Pycelle overruled him.) He also fed the mad king’s paranoia. Many of us assume that Varys thought his days numbered the moment Tywin returned to Kings Landing. You may disagree, that’s fine. These major story arcs (who is a Targaryen loyalist and who isn’t, and which of the characters know what about whom) are far out in speculation-land, and there’s pretty little evidence for or against.[/quote]

HE,

Well, I know what Barristan thought of Varys, ("the rot in Aerys's rule began with Varys") and I recall that Twyin referred to him as the "cockless wonder."

I've no doubt that Tywin would most likely look down on Varys as less than a man and probably dislike him personally.

However, Tywin was well-known for his "tool for every task" policy and the fact that Varys wasn't killed at the end of Aerys's reign and continued to be used during Tywin's unofficial reign suggests to me that he thought Varys fit the task and that, prior to Tyrion's escape, the eunuch's life was in no more immediate danger than it had been throughout his entire career.

[alguien]

Probably for another thread, but I actually [i]do[/i] believe that Varys has Targaryen sympathies.

Its my favorite pet theory that he had Targ blood himself (note the phonetic similarity between the "arys" in his name and multiple Targs), and that's why his manhood was sacrificed.

I think he eventually came to work for Aerys much the same way that Chade works for King Verity in the Robin Hobb Assassin's series.

My interpretation of the scene that we've been debating (Tyrion's escape, Tywin's death) was that Varys was placed into an untenable situation and figured out a way to turn it to his (and Dany's) advantage.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

[quote name='Jakob Lightbringer' post='1555138' date='Oct 14 2008, 08.41']I can't agree with this. There are really only two bits of evidence that I can think of to suggest that Tywin has ever had any kind of relationship with any kind of whore.
First, the tunnel to Chataya's -- possibly built by Tywin -- given the history of the Hand of the King, there's a [b]lot[/b] of possibilities.
Second, Shae in his bedchambers.
The first doesn't seem like very strong evidence as there's really no telling who built that tunnel. And the second, is of course, the matter we are disussing.[/quote]

From my perspective, it seems likely - Tywin is healthy, strong, and yet he has never remarried and has no mistress. And there's his repeatedly stated animosity toward whores - it seems overboard in Martin's aristocratic society which seems to accept prostitution as a fact of life. Why would Tywin object so strongly to his son's use of whores? Robert Baratheon certainly made use of them, as did Edmure Tully, Perwyn Frey - it's not apparently the sort of thing that shocks or disgraces the nobility. Using whores isn't going to be the deciding factor that makes Tywin's son an object of ridicule - he already is an object of ridicule. So why so much objection, unless whores are Tywin's own shame? Sort of like the overdone, loudly repeated animosity directed at homosexuals by some people who later turn out to be homosexuals themselves - at some point it crosses the line from expressing a simple lack of affinity and raises questions about whether such anger isn't fueled by self-recognition that can't be escaped.

[quote]Tywin shouldn't mention Shae, or any whore for that matter, because it is likely to get him killed -- that's been the whole point, all along. You can't be serious. If a man has just had sex with a woman, and that woman's former lover bursts into the room with a deadly weapon pointed at him -- that man would have to be mentally deranged to not suspect that his relationship has been discovered.[/quote]

Think about how Tywin considers whores - Tyrion is not Shae's former lover, he's a former customer. The notion that Tyrion might be jealous over Shae would be inconceivable to Tywin. Further, Tyrion is not likely to have any jealousy regarding her after she's just denounced him, ridiculed him and helped condemn him to death in a court full of noblemen, and Tywin surely knows that. The fact that Tyrion was scheduled to be executed the following day was Tywin's view on Tyrion's motivations, which was why he tried to assure Tyrion that he intended to send him to the Wall.

[quote]But, it is, I believe, completely impossible that Tywin does not at least suspect that Tyrion has encountered Shae, if he, Tywin, is aware of her presence and has just had sex with her.[/quote]

Again, even if he did suspect this, he would consider a whore too trivial to compare with the other reasons Tyrion might have to wish Tywin's death. Varys surely could not depend on this.

[quote]Again, I have to say that if this was Tywin's intention, to provoke Tyrion -- and he has just slept with Tyrion's whore -- then he is a grand fool for commiting such a blatantly suicidal blunder -- saying that word after having been warned that he will be killed for it. He must have a death wish. If he has any sense in his head at all, he must have accidentally stumbled into using that word -- but, of course, that only makes sense if he hasn't just slept with Tyrion's whore.[/quote]

I don't believe that Tywin ever considered himself in any real danger until Tyrion actually shot him. He did not believe his son possessed the courage to kill him, which was why he mocked Tyrion with the word "whore" and was proceeding to get up when Tyrion shot him.

And I think you're overestimating the importance of Shae to Tyrion as well as to Tywin. Tyrion did not kill his father because of Shae - the word "whore" infuriated him because he'd just learned that the first of the "whores" who Tywin has shamed him about through the years was, in fact, not a whore.

[Kuzbad]

Wow, people getting a little punchy, eh Happy Ent? :P

It seems as if this thread is going nowhere fast... did anybody ever answer why Tyrion KNEW he would find Tywin in the privy? Any theories??

[Ran]

I could think of several reasons why he knew. First, he knows he's not there. Second, he knows his father's guards are outside, so he's probably in the vicinity. Three, Shae was there and expecting his father, so he must also be nearby.

Why the privy, then? Well, if he's not in his chambers, but he's nearby, maybe it's the only place he's likely to be.

Or maybe it's a sort of ironic knowledge, that Tywin shits gold, etc., and the privy came to mind.

Or perhaps he just sort of knows that after sex, his father would go to the privy rather than do his business in a chamber pot in front of a whore.

[Kuzbad]

Ran, I think all your suggestions make sense. Though I would think that the Tower of the Hand would be more than a bedroom and a privy, and thus even the presence of the guards where Tyrion could hear them wouldn't mean that Tywin HAD to be in the privy though (meeting room? solar? library? meeting room? etc).

In other words, I think that the fact that Tyrion [i]knew[/i] that Tywin would be in the privy is fairly strong evidence Tywin was not drugged by Varys or anyone else. Shae acts normally, Tywin acts normally. All is normal.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Nadie' post='1558193' date='Oct 16 2008, 17.53']I think you're reaching. In fact, these quote convince more that I'm right about the "magic diarrhetic/whore" theory being false.

"Please, you're father frightens me so." pretty much indicates she's been around Tywin for some time, and "M'lord will be back soon"... You really think she's talking about Varys? C'mon. That would indicate Varys led her there. What possible incitement could led her to agree to this? Especially if she was "frightened" of Tywin. It certainly blows the "drugged Shae" portion of the theory out of the water, and since she was drowsing in sleep, pretty much puts paid to the whole thing.[/quote]
As a matter in fact, I do think she is talking about Varys here. She cannot actually say VARYS, because it would give away George's nicely written secret agenda of the spider. It did occur to you that GRRM could have written this with the intention to keep it hidden?? Sort of like who tried to assasinate Bran, who are Jon's parents, who's azor ahai, etc etc etc. She doesn't say Varys or Tywin will be back soon, because that's the beauty of the word M'lord, in the eye of the reader, it could be both of them.

You're father frightens me so, is actually not so strange. A man like Tywin would frighten me as well, he is a man to be afraid of. And she said it in her reasoning why she said those things in court; it doens't have to have anything to do with their intimate contacts.

If she really thinks that the man that is about to come back is Tywin, which she is afraid of, why doesn’t she start with asking Tyrion if he is there to take her away, why does she suggest first that Tyrion should run himself. Why is she wearing the Hand’s chain, if she is moments before abused by that man?? Or do you think she isn’t afraid of Tywin at all?

[shadowbinding shoe]

So Shae is sleeping in Tywin's bed but she expects Varys to come back for her soon? This would mean that she came there of her own free will with Varys' assistance for, what? Unless you mean she already had sex with Tywin and now waits for her pimp to take her away before he returns from the pooper now that her job is done.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='shadowbinding shoe' post='1559084' date='Oct 17 2008, 12.35']So Shae is sleeping in Tywin's bed but she expects Varys to come back for her soon?[/quote] Yes

[quote]This would mean that she came there of her own free will with Varys' assistance for, what?[/quote] If she felt sick or tired (possible due to drugs), Varys could have brought her into the room and told her to rest, he would take her with him later, when he has finished the thing he apparently has to do. Shae doesn't have much choice, she trusts Varys and she falls asleep in a bed she has been in earleir.

[quote]Unless you mean she already had sex with Tywin and now waits for her pimp to take her away before he returns from the pooper now that her job is done.[/quote]
Could it be that she does not known Tywin is on the pooper?

Btw, I had some other points as well, I don't see them back.

[Ran]

[quote]If she felt sick or tired (possible due to drugs), Varys could have brought her into the room and told her to rest...[/quote]

And he takes her through secret tunnels to secretly deposit her in the Hand's chambers? That's rather an odd way to go to take her some place to "rest".

And why is she naked?

And why does she have Tywin's chain of office about her neck?

This doesn't make sense at all. Is the drug supposed to incapacitate her so much that Varys is able to arrange all this?

But then how is she able to wake up and immediately carry out a coherent conversation? When you're drugged to the gills, you tend to be woozy and incoherent, but she wakes up as soon as she hears a sound.

[quote]... she trusts Varys ...[/quote]

Err... No? What in the world ever gave the impression that Shae trusts anyone? She doesn't survive by trust.

[Roi Woodt]

[quote name='Ran' post='1559091' date='Oct 17 2008, 12.49']And he takes her through secret tunnels to secretly deposit her in the Hand's chambers? That's rather an odd way to go to take her some place to "rest".[/quote]
Not for Varys, he is doing it half his life. Not for Shae either, she did it before as well. Imagine he told Shae that he was going to ship her over to Illyrio and she would have a wealthy life there, imagin he told her that they would leave after some bussiness that Varys had to. He told her also she could rest in the Hand's room and he would pick her up soon and together they would leave and flee the city. Why wouldn't she trust Varys in that. he is perfectly able to fool her like that,.

[quote]And why is she naked?[/quote]
Why not, she is resting.

[quote]And why does she have Tywin's chain of office about her neck?[/quote]
She likes it, and in her sleepiness she grabbed it and decided to wear it. And felt asleep.

[quote]This doesn't make sense at all. Is the drug supposed to incapacitate her so much that Varys is able to arrange all this?[/quote]
I don't know about the drugs, in my opinion it is one that makes her sleepy. If there was any at all.

[quote]But then how is she able to wake up and immediately carry out a coherent conversation?
When you're drugged to the gills, you tend to be woozy and incoherent, but she wakes up as soon as she hears a sound.[/quote]
Probably she already slept her drug away and wakes up normally.

[quote]Err... No? What in the world ever gave the impression that Shae trusts anyone? She doesn't survive by trust.[/quote]
Correct, she didn't survive ;)

[Ran]

[quote]Not for Shae either, she did it before as well. Imagine he told Shae that he was going to ship her over to Illyrio and she would have a wealthy life there, imagin he told her that they would leave after some bussiness that Varys had to. He told her also she could rest in the Hand's room and he would pick her up soon and together they would leave and flee the city. Why wouldn't she trust Varys in that. he is perfectly able to fool her like that,.[/quote]

I really don't think so. This is where mileage varies. This strikes me as even more preposterous than some of the other explanations for how Varys engineered things.

[quote]Probably she already slept her drug away and wakes up normally.[/quote]

So "M'Lord?" is actually a reference to [i]Varys[/i]?

Can someone explain again why we're going in this direction? Wouldn't it just be more sensible for Shae to think that she's being deposited in Tywin's bed because Lord Tywin's going to have a use for her?

Although when she says, "M'lord will be back soon," it's pretty implicit that she's talking about Tywin, because it's hard to imagine why she'd suppose that "Lord" Varys returning to fetch her would concern Tyrion very much, given that Varys never showed a capacity for courage or violence. Now, maybe "will be back soon" is a creative invention on her part, but regardless, she knows she's in Tywin's chambers and she _seems_ to think he's the fellow who ought to be appearing, not Tyrion nor Varys.

This angle on this particular conspiracy theory doesn't wash. At all.

Why not back track and sort out a theory where Shae is there to be (or out of a belief to be) a prostitute? It will probably hold up to scrutiny a fair bit better.